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Found 12 results

  1. Jephgag

    Propane behaviour at gas cutoff

    Hello, I built myself a venturi burner for a small heat treating forge and after many online readings, I was able to make a starter propane forge. I took a lot of precaution to make sure that there is no leak (gasline teflon + soapy water test multiple times) and everything seems good. However, since I am using a highly flammable gas, I want to learn as much of the process before firing the propane burner for a first heat treatment cycle for safety reasons. One subject that I haven't found about is how the burner should normally behave when I cut off the gas. So my question is: when I shut off the gas, what should happen to the flame? As I reduce the psi of the gas output or as I close the main valve on the propane tank, will the flame "burst out" (not sure what the term is)? Also if I reduce the psi to almost 0, what should happen to the flame? will it go back to my nozzle or should it fizz out before that? I hope that I gave enough details to get answers, but if not, let me know. Thanks.
  2. LineSix

    Gas, dope, leaks, and questions

    I'm in the process of building my first venturi forge. It'll be a simple forge based off of Michael Porter's book. The main question I have is one I can't seem to find an answer to. I read LP rated teflon tape is a no-no for pressurized gas lines. So properly rated dope paste is what I hear some people use. My question about that is do you use pipe dope on your lines? If so, do you use pipe dope on your high pressure regulator, the line coming from it, the pressure gauge on the regulator, the quick shut off valve, and the backside of your burner where the line connects? I assume the last gets a little too warm for dope to work correctly, but I want to know what you guys do anyway. My concern is dope getting the regulator, gauge, and possibly the burner all fouled up. My other concern is having a gas leak and potentially losing my shop and/or some parts that I was born with. I know that it's a touchy subject, so I'll state for the record that I take full responsibility for everything that goes right or wrong in my shop and on my property. I'm only asking what you folks do for your venturi forges. I am not asking for you to tell me what to do. If you know of a resource I can use to get that information, I would greatly appreciate that as well. Thanks, Patrick
  3. Forgehermet


    In my previous post I learned that my oddball burners probably would not get hot enough for a forge so now I am wondering what the cheapest burner design that runs on propane is. My forge is 28"x8"x8", and I would also like to know how many burners I should have in my new forges construction.
  4. Will this concept work? I plan on using waste oil, rotary drum pump, 1/2" tubing, and a brass mister head, along with a conventional propane burner Venturi body.
  5. smilyjoe

    Started working twin burners

    Started working on my forge's twin burners this week. So far, everything is turning out great. I have not tested this design yet, but plan to do so soon. I started off by taking a close look at my TurboTorch tips that I use at work (Acetylene gas). Here's a picture of the TurboTorch tip (A11). I too extra notes on the brass section of the torch tip, where the gas begins to mix with air. The gas flows from the regulator into a small chamber, with a very tiny hole machined in it. This little hole sits just before the air intake, which is proportional to the overall diameter of the tip size. I know this because other air intake holes on smaller and larger TurboTorch tips that I have increase and decrease based on tip size (A5 vs A11 for example). Here's a picture of the air-intake holes. Here's a somewhat poor picture of the little hole inside the tip I'm talking about. Anyways, I started considering how I could make this into a larger burner with propane gas for my forge. After learning a bit about forge burners form various sources (mostly the black hole of the Internet where I lost most of my soul), I took a trip to the hardware store (Ferguson Plumbing Supply where I do most of my day-to-day business for work). I purchased a few 1/4 brass fittings, including a 1/4 to 3/8 90. I took the small 1/4 brass cap which I purchased (hex) and drilled a 1/16th hole dead center in the cap. I took a 12" black nipple (also purchased from Ferguson) and cut off the threads. I then proceeded to drill a lot (like, swiss cheese-lot) into the top of the nipple about 3" down. I tapped some set-screws into the side of the gas pipe to hold my reducing 90 (still to be determined if this is the best way to center the fuel hole in the burner). I slid a small piece of stainless steel pipe (one which fit nearly perfectly over the 3/4 gas nipple) up the pipe and used a screw to set it in place (to control air flow for tuning). This covered some of the holes that I drilled earlier on. Finally, I choose to use a small piece of stainless steel pipe which was flared out at the bottom of my burner. I connected it to the 3/4 gas nipple via a set screw as well. The 1/16 hole in the hex cap as seen through the mostly-completed burner. The first burner, and the soon-to-be burner. I need to test the first one before I make the second. Ok. Tell me what you think. People - I'm not looking for drama. The last few posts I've made here have been met with some ornery little kid crap. If you don't like the way I write, move on people. There's at least a few thousand personalities on this forum. You won't get along with everybody. Moving on, away from the drama, I would like some honest opinions. I've never built a forge or burner before. ________________________________________________________ That's it. Let me know how I'm doing. Be joyful. Be friendly. Live life to it's fullest, and have no regrets. I forgot to take a close up picture of the little holes I drilled in the 3/4" nipple. They are as evenly spaced as I could get them with no drill press (soon I'll have one of those too). Again, I modeled the air-intake after the holes on the turbo torch. This post has been heavily edited by Claytonzeimet. Quotes below were made before the edits.
  6. Elvirth

    Devil Forge Single Burner

    Hey guys. Sooooo I decided to just go ahead and buy a ready-made forge to speed the learning process along. Got it in the mail today. It seems pretty sturdy, the main tube did get a little bent in transit, but nothing I couldn't mostly fix or deal with. The burner it comes with seems pretty straightforward, not sure what design it's based off of, but it looks serviceable. The major issue I have at the moment is that, while it does come with a regulator and hose for connecting a propane tank, the regulator is designed for some strange European standard and I need two absurdly specific little components to make it compatible. Also, the measurements on the gauge are in Russian, and I don't recognize the symbols. I think I might just end up going downtown tomorrow and buying a Bayou Classic or something close, just because I hate having to change things I don't particularly understand. I already coated the kaowool with some ITC-100, spritzed the wool down with some water first and then mixed and painted it on. Tried to cover any and all exposed wool. Not entirely sure I did it completely right, and I would have liked to add more kaowool, but I'm working with what I have at the moment. A couple pictures: They were also nice enough to include a pre-cut firebrick for the forge floor. I have a couple as well, so I'll probably be able to use those for closing up the back end a bit. I'm very excited, Now I have some very visual progress towards being able to hammer some metal out. I just wish all the provided instructions for the regulator weren't in Russian. Ah well. So, there you have it. I'll probably update this once I can get some gas and a regulator.
  7. billyO

    Forgewelding forge

    Hello all. As I find more of my forge time devoted to playing with Damascus and making billets, I’m not liking the fact that I’m heating up 1413 cubic inches of space for approx. 36 cubic inches of material. So I’ve decided I’ve got too much time on my hands and I need another project. I want to make a dedicated, small forge-welding forge. Here’re my options: 1.) Complete my original plan with my current forge (an 18″ length of 14″ diameter 1/4″ steel pipe with 2″ castable refractory for insulation and a 4″x10″ ribbon burner) and cast removable inserts out of Greencast to both shrink the current forge cavity and catch the flux to help preserve the outer layer of cement. Or; 2.) Recast and fix a smaller, atmospheric forge I’ve got. My only concern is the potential hot spot in the middle of the atmospheric forger burning some material. Thanks for the input
  8. Over the time I have been visiting this forge I have seen a lot of people come through and ask about all sorts of designs of forges. Most of the people posting such threads are actually new to using a gas forge and often new to smithing. I have advised many of these newer smiths to first build a brick pile forge, use that a while and then go to something more serious once you figure out how big you will need. So now I wanted to make a definitive post as a guide for these people. The forge will have an internal size of 9" x 4.5" x 6.5", or 263 cubic inches. It is, however, easily reconfigured to be smaller, shorter, wider or whatever you need for your particular tasks in the shop. That is the beauty of a brick pile forge, it can be reconfigured at will and allows the smith to see what size they need in the end. This forge is not the end all-be-all of smithing forges. It is a starter forge and as you work with it, you will learn a ton about how forges work and will grow into more efficient systems. The brick pile forge is so versatile that occasionally I will toss one together just to do some specific task that doesn't work well in my main forge. Forge Materials: About 10 to 15 Soft insulating bricks, rated 2300 degrees farenheit. 3 Hard firebricks. Metal Table Burner Materials:1" to ¾" Black Iron T fitting (1" across the top and 3/4" on the leg of the T) ¾" to to 1" Black Iron reducer ¾" x 6" Black Iron Pipe Nipple High Pressure Propane Regulator Propane Pressure Gage ¼" Propane Rated hose with Fuel Threaded ends (available at welding supply stores) ¼" Propane Rated Flashback Supressor (available at welding supply stores) ¼" Fuel to normal pipe thread converter (available at welding supply stores) ¼" Ball Valve ¼" Brass Pipe Nipple (4") ¼" Brass pipe Nippel (smallest) ¼" Brass Pipe Straight Connector ¼" Brass Pipe to 1/8" Copper Compression Fitting (2) ⅛" Brass Pipe Compression nuts 24" flexible copper pipe ⅛" Compression to normal pipe Nipple .025 MIG Tip Propane rated thread sealant. Tools (Basic):Copper Compression Hose Flare Fitting Tap for your MIG tip thread (varies by the tip brand) Tap for ⅛" pipe thread Couple of Crescent Wrenches Drill 2" Hole Saw Hacksaw Reducer for ¾" to drill bit size for the tap. Plumber's torch with click starter Tools (Best): Drill Press rather than drill Dremmel with Cut-off wheel Propane Supply Assembly First tap the 1/8" compression to normal pipe nipple with the tap for your MIG tip. The right tap to use depends on the tip brand that you are using. If you ask a welding supply store they can supply you (or at lest tell you) the right size. Then cut about ⅛" off of your MIG tip and put propane sealant on the threads and screw it into the tapped fitting securely. Next attach the copper flexible hose to the compression fitting by putting on the compression nut and then flaring the tubing and finally screwing the compression nut on the fitting you tapped. The goal of the flexible copper tip is to get a good nice gas tight seal without constraining yourself with rigid pipe. Next put the compression nut on the other side of the tubing and flare that. Take the ¼" pipe to compression fitting and attach the other end of the flexible copper tubing to this fitting. Then attach the converter fitting to a small pipe nipple then to the straight connector and then to the longer pipe nipple. The extra parts make this assembly easy to use on other burners and other projects in the future. Finally attach the 4" brass pipe nipple to the ball valve, then attach the ball valve to the fuel to pipe thread converter. use propane sealant on all threaded connections. Fuel hoses are backward threaded. You learn "Righty tighty, lefty loosey" to understand normal threads. Fuel threads are the reverse of that and this is a safety feature that you don't want to violate. The converter changes the normal pipe thread into fuel threading. This should be screwed right into a propane rated flashback suppressor. This device will keep a flashback from reaching your bottle if something should go badly wrong. You can potentially skip this device but when it comes to exploding propane bottles, I prefer to play it safe. Attach the flashback suppressor to your propane fuel hose and then the other end of the fuel hose to the regulator. Screw the pressure gage on the regulator and you have the jet assembly done. Again remember to use propane sealant on all threads, if you didn't, go back and take it apart and do it right. Burner The burner is a standard "Frosty" T burner so named after the forum user Frosty who created it and has a propensity for wrestling large trees. To tap the back of the T, get a reducer that will screw into the ¾" side part and reduce it to just barely the size of the drill bit you will use for the pipe thread tap. If it is smaller, that is fine, if larger that isn't optimal. This reducer will serve as a guide to the drill to position the jet exactly in the middle of the T leg. Drill out the burner and then tap it for the ⅛" pipe that the MIG tip is attached to. Next attach the black iron pipe nipple and the ¾" to 1" reducer to act as a flare. If you don't know how to drill and tap, then you should probably research that and practice before embarking on this project. Now screw the burner jet into the burner and then test the burner. Testing the Burner Check for leaks using dishwashing fluid mixed with water or, even better, child's bubble solution. If you see bubbles that is a leak. Twist it tighter, make sure you have a good amount of propane sealant and so on. Light the burner with a plumber's torch (this is the safest way to light your forge). Another great trick for checking leaks is a cheap medicine syringe used for children. Fill it with bubble fluid and squirt on your junctions. Note that while I am testing my son is sitting there with his hand on the bottle valve and watching what is going on. His job is simple, if something goes bad, he cuts the propane at the bottle. Forge When we say brick pile, we aren't kidding, its literally a pile of bricks on the table. Use a metal table and you can fabricate one if need be. Mine is fabricated to hold forges. Start with three bricks in the center of the table configured as shown Add a hard firebrick in the middle. This will heat up in the forge and serve to regulate the forge temperature. Make sure the brick is at least the width of one brick from front, back and sides. Next add vertical bricks to the side of the hard brick. Now we test out the roof bricks. We want to make sure that we have the right width. Now we add some hard bricks to the side to support the vertical bricks from falling. We also set up a couple of bricks to serve as the back door. Now we have to drill out one brick for the flare. These bricks are very soft so be careful or you will shatter them. We use a hole saw to drill the brick. Put plywood under the brick to support it and make sure you can drill all the way through without hitting the table. When you drill, go very slow and steady. Don't press hard or the brick will shatter. Now we place the flare brick on top of the pile, stick the flare through and clamp up a support for the burner. The bricks won't be strong enough to support it. Now we seal up the roof using a brick on edge to serve to give a roof over our front door bricks. Finally turn on the burner to about 5psi and open the ball valve while the plumber's torch is in the forge and enjoy the glow. Enhancements: The bricks can be coated with ITC-100 wherever they are exposed to heat. This will make the forge hold a lot more heat. You can also make a quick form the size of a brick and pour half an inch of castable over the brick (like Kastolyte 30) and then coat that with ITC-100. Make sure the first time you fire the castable you go slow. This will allow a much hotter face. You can put in blown burners, change the configuration and a dozen other enhancements. Comments and questions are welcome.
  9. A good while back, I was playing around with some burners and built a quick-and-dirty test forge from IFBs. It was used to test a 1" burner based on an Amal atmospheric injector (a British commercially-made Venturi mixer. Amal were once a big name in motorcycle carburettors). The intention was to get it to run over a range of temperatures all the way from heat-treating to welding. I showed it to some of the guys from the BritishBlades forum at a hammerin and one asked if they made smaller injectors. The 1" had seemed quite small to me, as I'm used to using the 2" ones at work, but he knows what he's talking about and I thought it might be worth trying an even smaller one. These are 1/2", 3/4", 1", 1 1/2" and 2" atmospheric injectors A quick word on burner sizing here; the Amal injectors are threaded to fit standard pipe, but have the flare as part of the injector assembly and a throat diameter that is considerably smaller than the nominal pipe size. Most of the online Naturally Aspirated burner write-ups I have seen, that incorporate the Venturi principle, effectively use the nominal pipe size as the throat and add a larger-diameter flare onto the end. The 1” Amal has a throat measuring 0.67”. The throat on the 1/2” is 0.350”. My initial assumption was that a 1” Amal mixer with its 0.67” throat would probably be similar to a 3/4” burner built to one of the better-known designs. I was not entirely convinced it would be big enough to do any real hot work, so my first try with a 1/2" burner was a quick-and-dirty Heat-Treat forge. Broadly speaking, the plan was to scale down a Don Fogg-style HT forge (normally made from a full-sized 45-/55-gallon oil drum) to something that would fit the space a hobby knifemaker might have available. After a fair bit of messing about, I thought I had something 10” diameter and under 2' long that might just about do the job. As a bonus, it should also be usable for forging. 791 degC is 1455 degF, the lower end of the Austenitizing temperature range for O1. 1183 degC is 2161 degF, more than hot enough for forging Carbon steels. I then built another forge, about the size of a 2BF, with a 1/2” burner. This would just about manage the low temperatures for HT and would easily reach welding temperature, but at about 2 1/2” x 10” the chamber seemed too small to actually weld anything useful in. A few weeks ago at work, we had a couple of small compressors to scrap, fitted with 25 litre (about 7 gallon) receivers. These looked a good size for forge shells at around 9” diameter and 20” long. I thought they'd work ok with 1” burners. I built one; cut off an end and holesawed an opening in it, lined it with Ceramic Fibre Blanket, coated the hot face with a mixture of Rigidizer, Zirconium Silicate and porcelain clay powder, then welded the end back on. The burner port was cut to take the 1” burner. After a couple of days, the inside was still wet and I was getting impatient. I stuck in the 1/2” burner and fired it up at low pressure to dry out the porcelain mix. I also stuck in a thermocouple to see how the temperature went, expecting it to start low, rising as things dried out and stabilizing once dry. After an hour or so, I looked at the temperature display and it was saying 1146 degC/2095 degF; a pretty decent forging temperature. There was still plenty of adjustment on the burner, so it got fiddled about with. HT temperatures seemed no problem. Nor did welding temperatures; I've seen online sources giving values of 2300 degF/1260 DegC, but 1300 degC/ 2372 degF seems to be a nice welding temperature taken from my actual measurements at hammerins. At 50 PSI and with a fully open airgap, the 1/2” burner maxed out a type K thermocouple, which is “only” good to 1370 degC/2500 degF. Being primarily interested in the burner, rather than the forge, I wanted to see whether the temperature was being limited by the gasflow or the airflow. I stuck in a type S thermocouple (Platinum-based and expensive) instead of the type K and measured the temperature at around 1410 degC/2538 degF. The size 30 gas jet was then transferred to a 3/4” burner and tried again for maximum temperature in the forge, reaching about 1420 degC/2588 degF, so pretty much the same. The Amal jets are calibrated for petrol/gasoline but the 30 jet is, as close as I can measure, about 0.5 mm/.020” (a 0.500 mm drill fits, a 0.508 mm drill does not). Next, the 1” burner was tried, fitted with a MIG tip sized for 0.6mm (.023”) wire and around 0.725 mm/.029” diameter (0.7mm drill fits, 0.75mm does not). This gave a maximum temperature of 1552 degC (2825 degF) and pretty much kakked the forge lining. I grudgingly decided this was rather more burner than necessary. The other receiver was lined, this time with only a 1/2” burner port, and fired up to test. The gas pressure was set at 20 PSI and the only thing that was adjusted initially was the air gap. First impressions were that it would probably make for an adequate beginners forge. Forging and Heat-Treat temperatures seemed OK and maximum steady temperature was 1345 degC, still at 20 PSI. Winding up the pressure to 40 PSI, 1445 degC was the maximum temperature reached. There was still a bit of a steam plume visible from the various unplugged ports in the shell, so there may be a little more to come once the lining is fully dry. The flame at HT temperatures is quite yellow and very rich. The air gap (choke) is adjusted by rotating the knurled section, which screws the whole Venturi into or out of the cast body of the injector. 1346 degC is 2455 degF. Although welding temperatures are attainable, the CF lining is definitely not suitable for welding with flux. Even just once. Any welding would need to be dry and I'm not convinced this is a realistic proposition for a beginner. Some more testing is definitely required. The atmosphere seemed to be reducing at all useful temperatures, which should help to minimize scale and decarb. I am not sure whether it remains reducing with the air gap fully open though. It was my original intention to jet the burner so that it would be reducing at every possible setting and I originally thought I'd managed it with both the 1” and 1/2” burners, but now I'm not so sure. The relatively low heat input resulting from the small gas jet probably makes it slower to heat biggish bits of steel than the pros would want to live with, but as said above, I think it would give someone a reasonably decent start at hobby knifemaking. Realistic costs are awkward to work out, mainly because I used stuff either scrounged or that I already had. The 1/2” Amal gas injector cost a little under £40 (about $60) from Burlen Fuel Systems in Salisbury as a walk-in customer. The rest of the burner assembly is just a piece of 1/2” stainless pipe with a threaded end. Threading stainless is no fun, so I used a weld nipple to provide the thread. I had these already, along with a regulator, pressure gauge and hose. I used somewhere in the region of 2 metres of 25mm/1” thick, 1400 degC-rated CF blanket (1400 degC is 2552 degF), maybe a litre of Rigidizer, some Harry Frazer porcelain powder and some Zirconium Silicate powder. I already had these. The receiver that became the forge casing was free. I used one thin disc cutting the end off, part of a flapdisc tidying up the cut edge and a minimal amount of MIG wire and gas welding it back on. I think it really needs some means of measuring the temperature to realise the benefit of the fine control provided by the Amal injector, so that is factored in. Although most of the pics show a type S thermocouple and pyrometer, a type K is good to 1370 degC/2500 degF and is a fraction of the cost of a type S. The type K thermocouple I use cost £32 (maybe $50 at current exchange rates) a year or so back and the TM902C display lists on ebay at £3.39 (about $5) delivered. I've probably got under £120 in the whole setup (under $200), including the thermocouple and pyrometer, but it would probably be more realistic to think in terms of a couple of hundred quid for a UK-based hobby maker to duplicate it (around $300-ish).
  10. I have seen mention of smaller-than-3/4" burners a few times now and when I have some spare time, want to bench race a couple ideas. The question I have, however is just how small can you go and actually have a workable flame i.e. how small can you go with the naturally aspirated theory before the tube size to molecule size begins to break down. I see it a lot on miniature water scenes especially in old movies b4 cgi came along. A miniature battle ship just doesn't float the same way a full sized one does due to the size of the model to the size of water molecules. I guess the best term would be viscosity(?) How viscous can the air fuel mix; how close can those molecules be jammed together in a tube? Anybody build a 3/8" burner with a proper albeit tiny three part flame? 1/4"??? Points to ponder Scott
  11. megiddoblades

    Recommendation on gas forges?

    Hello everyone, this is my first post on I Forge Iron! Thank you for all the hard work you do both maintaining the site, and responding to questions. It's a relief to a newbie like me to be able to get answers from pros who've been there, rather than guesswork. My question is, are there any gas forges that you would recommend? I don't have any welding experience yet, so I can't make one. I was looking at the Whisper Momma but before I took the plunge, I wanted your input on if there is something better out there, or more suiting, if you're willing. My main focus in blacksmithing will be tool smithing, and general functional blacksmithing rather than artistry/sculpture. Also, I will probably do architectural/artistry work for practice and gifting, but not for public use. What I'd like from a gas forge will probably seem like I'm asking for the moon, but here goes. I'd like a forge that has a clamshell design (not necessary, but seemingly helpful for larger work), or at least a fairly spacious interior that allows for a 7+ inch width, 3+ in height, 5+ in. depth. Basically, enough for small plates (i.e. for coal shovel, smithin' magician), general tools (hammer, tongs) etc. I'd like for the forge to be of a venturi type. I will be working without electricity, so a blown forge and natural gas is a no go. A forge that has enough heat for forgewelding, specifically, hot enough for chain links, basket welds, etc. One that is also safe, reliable, and gas efficient. While not necessary, one that is easy to repair would also be helpful for me. Also, while these don't have to do with picking a forge, they kind of are related safety wise. About how long does it take to cool off once it's shut down? I figured checking hoses, making sure there aren't any leaks, don't tip the propane, stabilize and keep the forge on inflammable materials are all essential practices, but are there any other safety concerns for a gas forge that I should know about? Any particular size of propane tank that you would recommend, and if it isn't too invasive, the typical cost I'd be looking at? I read a couple articles on iforge, about protecting the refractory with stainless steel or kiln shelving. Are there other methods of protecting the refractory from flux, but can still take the heat? Thanks again for your help and your interest, I appreciate it.
  12. Savage

    venturi burner

    Hey guys hope you all having a good day today, well for starters im Michael or as my friends call me The Savage. Ive only done about a year at a blacksmith school and enjoyed it alot but after mucking around with knives i have realized my talents and interest lye more towards the bladesmithing side and have made 15 or so knives in my old coal forge. Its become too difficult to find resources for coal in my area as i moved right into town and solid fuel isnt really allowed so i descided on the gas forge route. So to make a long and time wasting story short ive made the forge and its completely ready to start except for my burner, now i am sure you guys get this on a daily basis but try to bare with me. My burner design is a venturi type, when i light it and add more fuel it seems like the added adjustment of fuel makes the flame blow away from the burner tip instead of stablising into a nice blue cone shape. I will add pics and posibly a vid link of it asap. Any help is greatly appreciated as im so anxious to get it going.