They didn't have angle grinders in 1875...

[Everything Mac]

Hi all, 

 

I'm an avid social media user when I'm away from the workshop which is sadly all too often. I often post pictures of things I've made and peruse the things other people out there are making. 

 

More recently I've started making youtube videos. I'll post a link here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGwTpm0WpWA

 

The aim is to help beginner blacksmiths with a few projects etc etc. 

 

Anyway I posted this video on a facebook group and got a rather interesting reply. "They didn't have angle grinders in 1875" 

 

 Quite an obvious comment if you take it at face value. But to me it has worrying undertones. It seems to me there are often two kinds of amateur blacksmiths. - The "modern" smiths and the "Old school" smiths. - I hope these are suitably self explanatory. 

 

Personally I can't understand the reasoning behind people who are rooted to this idea that blacksmithing is an ancient craft and everything has to be done "The old way" or it's not worth doing at all... 

 

Why on earth would I do this hobby in a way that's true to the way a blacksmith in 1875 would do it? for filing things by hand, using a hand operated drill, forge welding any joins? - no angle grinder, drill press or arc welder in sight? 

 

Is it just me or is this absolutely daft? I'm only a hobby smith, but even so my time is precious. I have a dog that needs walking twice a day, a fiancé that needs feeding when she gets in from work, not to mention a job of my own. I don't have time to even consider doing everything the way it was done hundreds of years ago. I can only imagine how important time savers are for the professional smiths out there. Power hammers, induction forges and so on and so on...

 

Some might say that doing things the old fashioned way adds to their value to the customer (if indeed you are selling your work) - but my question to that would be "How can your customer tell, other than you telling them that's how you did it?" 

 

To me it seems to be a way to charge unnecessarily inflated prices, when surely you can tailor the price to the budget of the client. I'm more than happy to arc weld things together if the budget demands it - To paraphrase Frosty - Likewise I'm happy to smelt the steel from scratch as long as their budget allows for it. 

 

Are there any "Old school" smiths on here? If so can you share your reasoning with me? 

 

I assume there are a few "modern" smiths here that have the same feelings on the matter. One thing that is interesting though, another facebook user commented that "They didn't have angle grinders, but they would have used them if they did..." 

 

 

All the best 

 

Andy

[odblacksmith]

I forget who said it but it was on this forum i'm sure,and this wont be word for word "forge out the working end of your tongs and weld(mig arc whatever) your rein on,just like they would have done in the old days... if they had welders"

I get the whole "traditional old timey thing" and i feel there is a time and place for everything much as you've described above.I made a project for a relative and i wanted to make it all out of square but all i had was round,i forged it to square and did it "the old way" hand riveted the whole nine.Again this was for a relative,if it was for "sale" i would have discussed processes with the client and did what i could to make it fit my time/their budget.This should be a good topic.

[Smoggy]

Nor did they have modern varieties of steels and other metal alloys that these so called old school smiths will happily use. I have no power in my smithy, I don't intend fitting any bar battery powered lighting......I guess the old school guys use a lot of candles and no PPI bar a leather apron and damp rags!

I don't need it for what I'm doing and as I am in close proximity to the neighbours I need to make as little noise as possible. When I do need to grind, I can do it elsewhere. but as is I can happily forge late into the evening when next doors children are in bed and not disturb anyone.

The only time I can envisage working in a method which is totally commensurate with a bygone age is for re-enactments.

 

p.s. Your vid linked above does not want to play at the moment Andy.......however I have previously  enjoyed other vids you have posted cheers.

[beammeupscotty]

There are hobby smiths who do it because they like to make stuff and there are hobby smiths who may also be makers, but who like to pretend they are makers in a previous time.  I personally don't  hang out with the latter type.  

[mutant]

To me, there's nothing wrong with working with or without modern day tools. Doesn't matter to me if you use propane or coal either. For me, at least, blacksmithing both a skill and an art and the tools the artist wants to use is up to them.

[Charlotte]

If you pause to consider the number of things invented by smiths individually or working in a shop with other smiths you will realize that the tradition of the blacksmith is to use the tools available to create the tools that are need or work better to get the job done.  Famous example is the vise grip.

[DSW]

Maybe I'm a bit different. I see way too many today that think modern tools are the answer to everything. I doubt 1/2 the guys I know have even ever used a cold chisel, hand hacksaw or hand file. They must have a power grinder, power saw or whatever. If they don't, or can't afford it, it can't be done.

One of my favorite stories is about the saving of the crew of the US submarine S5 that sank off the coast of Delaware/New Jersey. The crew managed to blow enough ballast to get the stern of the sub just above water. Then they managed to drill and cut a small triangular hole thru the hull, enough to wave a small flag on a broom handle to attract attention of a passing ship. The crew was rescued from certain death when the chief engineer of a 2nd ship and his helper hand drilled a series of holes with a breast drill and chiseled out the 3/4" thick steel in between the holes creating roughly a 2 foot hole for the men to squirm thru. How many today would have the patience let alone the know how to do something like this.

 

 

 

"Old school" tools and techniques taught patience and craftsmanship, something I think many today have lost. It's not that you can't have craftsmanship with modern tools, it's just that so many people equate skills simply with expensive tools. They fail to see that skill comes from long hours of tedious practice. Few today have the patience to learn real skill. They want to watch Youtube, buy some tools and be an expert after an hour or so. If not, obviously there's something wrong, and they need to spend more money to buy better, fancier tools to solve this problem.

[ThomasPowers]

Whats funny is when the old ways are faster/easier/cheaper than the new ways  We generally expect new ways to be faster/easier/cheaper but this is not always the case.  Many times the new ways were developed just so people did not need to be as skilled to do a task; but if you have the skills then you can chose methods to suit your problems.

I've done iron age smithing---real wrought iron, a rock for an anvil, charcoal in a ground forge and two single action bellows. But I do that only when that's the best way to solve a particular problem.  I've also used propane forges and powerhammers.  They all have their place.

I remember back on rec.crafts.metalworking when the machinists were discussing how to make a cork screw.  Shoot a blacksmith would be drinking wine before they would have their starting piece indicated in!

[VaughnT]

There are a lot of idiots in the world, and the internet gives them a voice.  I wouldn't pay any mind to them.

 

As for working with modern tools..... I love it!  I'm a lousy welder, but I love that I have a welder and can fasten two pieces together in a jiffy.   Most customers don't want to pay for the labor as it is, they'd really have a conniption fit if you did everything like in 1875 and charged them for the hours involved!

[Rashelle]

2 hours ago, Everything Mac said:

Why on earth would I do this hobby in a way that's true to the way a blacksmith in 1875 would do it?

Why wouldn't I?

It all comes down to individual preferences. I personally do not like the looks of big box items made in a factory in (wherever land) and sold in the major chain stores spottily welded together. That is not aesthetically pleasing to me whereas traditional joinery is.

(As I type this I am seeing more replies that have the potential to turn this into a heated argument rather then a discussion. Please everyone remember that we all have the rights to have our own opinions without calling each other idiots for disagreeing with you.)

I did Fort Vancouvers blacksmith apprenticeship, I personally like doing things by hand the old ways. I don't really understand myself why people take up this old craft and then do NOT do the bulk of their work that way. With that said at work in addition to instructing (in mostly traditional, what you could make yourself, propane forge, use of belt sanders on knives (files are shown), I periodically make things for the shop and for production for the business. In which case I use bandsaw for cutting most stock, my personal belt sander (the students use smaller ones), even sometimes a angle grinder for scale removal. But then at those times I am in a production mode and need to up efficiency to make a living.

My own preference though is to hand forge my own tools and projects. I get a zen like feeling from that.

So left to my own devices I make what I use. Which has included forges. There is a good feeling from it. I am not relying on a power source or modern equipment other then lighting. For production I use what is available that ups efficiency.

Edited January 14, 2016 by Rashelle
typed wrong word

[ausfire]

Well, I couldn't do without my angle grinder and don't feel bad about using it. In fact, they are cheap enough now that I have several on hand with different applications to save constantly changing wheels etc.

Modern vs traditional ... I have to be a bit of both. Working in a historic village situation, we try to make the smithy look like an 1800s set up and I do the demos with hand bellows, charcoal, hand punching and filing etc. (but I won't compromise on the safety glasses!)

However, I often leave pieces unfinished and when I get to my home smithy the angle grinders, mig welder etc. come into play. I am not confident with forge welding and it's hard to be persistent with it, when the mig is standing by ready.

And as has been said before, if the old time smith had a mig he would have used it.

[jumbojak]

50 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said:

Whats funny is when the old ways are faster/easier/cheaper than the new ways  We generally expect new ways to be faster/easier/cheaper but this is not always the case.  Many times the new ways were developed just so people did not need to be as skilled to do a task; but if you have the skills then you can chose methods to suit your problems.

I had this conversation with my brother about a month ago. We were building two cedar boxes for his house using lumber from a log he had sawn on his mini mill. It was rough sawn and still had the bark, contours, and knots from the tree displayed prominently. He was going for the rustic look. Lots of character.

When it came time to cut the pieces to length he decided to use his sawzall on the first cut and proceeded to knock most of the character off of the slab, owing to the vibration of the saw. I suggested we grab the hand saw from my box and make the next cut with it. He wanted to attempt to make two cuts using a circular saw, as the thickness and shape of the lumber wouldn't allow a single pass to cut cleanly.

So, while he was getting his circular saw out, squaring the fence, and trying to figure out a way to mark the slab on both sides I grabbed my handsaw and demonstrated just how quickly and cleanly we could make those cuts without all the fussing about needed to apply power tools. It worked. Beautifully in fact. Give me a sharp handsaw any day - I prefer the old Disston saws - over power tools.

Heck, I've been sawing up a pear tree by hand just to show a friend of mine that you don't need power equipment to stay warm in the winter. He didn't split enough wood because his hydraulic splitter was "borrowed" when he needed to be getting to it. I pointed to his maul and even offered to bring mine over to help. Now he's sleeping under an electric blanket and only starting a fire when people drop by...

[Crazy Ivan]

I like to stay on the middle line of modern vs old methods. While I do love cut off saws and grinders, modern power hammers and electric welding, I often find myself taking preference to hack saws, hot cuts, files, strikers, traditional joinery and fire welding. I find it to be more medatative to do things will little to no electric tools. On the flip side, most customers (including myself)cannot afford the cost of building a project this way. So I do what I can where I can but still need to keep the cost of my time in mind when making something. I gotta say I love a good 2X72 belt grinder! 

[MAD MAX]

I am a little different than most people of all types. I have lived off the grid for 30 years, I do have a generator and I do use a few modern tools and I don't feel bad about it. I do most things by hand because its just the only way I have to do it. I do ALOT of hand filing and as a result I can file things REAL flat and even most of the time. In the spirit of smithing I just do things the best I can with what I have, as a result I am pretty good at some things and not so at others. As an example I am a good filer but I gave up trying to learn to forge weld. In the end making things by hand weather made with modern tools or not is more than most people today will ever even attempt. either way I think this hobby is not for the lazy.

[John McPherson]

Oh, where to begin? There are only about 5 continents, 500 cultures, and 5000 years of history to choose from to be 'period correct'.

Someone noted that a lot of the old time ornamental smiths gave it up and retired in the 1960's and 1970's when they could no longer acquire real wrought iron or ultra low carbon steel easily, and the new medium carbon steel made from remelt scrap that was all that was available was just too hard to move by hand and be profitable. Brian Brazeal is one of the proponents of the 'just get a bigger hammer and hit it harder' school, which would include power hammers. The power hammer itself has only been around in one form or another for 500 years.

On the other paw, there is a well known and respected smith who makes exact copies of Colonial hardware from real wrought iron that he squirrels away by the ton when he can get it. The kicker is that he does it in a coal forge (not charcoal) with an electric blower, with a Little Giant power hammer, under electric lights, and finished on an early 20th century anvil with a pritchel and hardy, not a hornless 5th foot block anvil. Horrors! Why? Because the clients want the look, but not the price of doing it the 18th century way.

I respect both mens body of work, would not call either of these men wrong.

[SmoothBore]

3 hours ago, MAD MAX said:

either way I think this hobby is not for the lazy.

Well now, ... I'm lazy as home-made sin, ... and slower than the thought processes of a Liberal.

But I like to "make" things, ... "traditional" things.

And sometimes that requires "traditional" techniques, ... and sometimes not.

The common factor in "how" I make the things I do, ... is that they're ALL done, in whatever fashion I xxxx-well-please.

------------------------------------------------------

When I was very young, ... there were still a few working Blacksmith Shops in this area, ... performing a variety of Mechanical Repairs, and Fabrication.

By 1970 they were mostly gone.

But while they were still open, ... they ALL used Arc Welders, Oxy/Acetylene Torches, Cut-Off Saws, Grinders and Power Hammers.

Had they not, ... they wouldn't have lasted long enough for me to have seen them in operation.

I'm sure glad THEY didn't have the Internet, ... telling them what to think .....

[Francis Trez Cole]

as time moves forward we get new tools 10 years ago you would not think of an induction forge. Welding on reins with an arc welder that was Bill Epps but he did it just to hold it in place so it was easier to do a forge weld. There are people out there are always going to be purest. Smiths make the tools the need to help get the job done. Da Vinci designed a power hammer. It is all in how you represent your self to the customer. Do not say one thing then give them an other.   

[Nobody Special]

I will gladly do historical recreation work. Can I please have the factory available tools of the time, the wrought iron, and the shop full of twenty other blacksmiths and assorted minions to go with it?

Or I can smack metal and make it do what I want with what I have. I love hitting metal, but to go full period? And which period? Arc welding started in the 1880s. Seems silly to limit myself by ten years. Gas welding in the 1890s. Rotary grindstones? Who knows? Old though. Power hammers? Not more than a couple thousand years, tops. Water powered, grant you.

I can punch a hole faster than I can drill, and often do. Knowing the "traditional" processes are important to understanding metalwork, and more importantly, gives you more tools in your skillset, and therefore more options.

But.....tell me those guys working on the battleship wouldn't have killed for a heavy cutting torch instead of a breast drill. More often than not, I think people mean when they say "They didn't have this in 18...", they mean "I like the aesthetics of hand tools, and I find electronic equipment and welders to be jarring and disruptive." When taken to far extremes, I'm reminded of the wahhabists I saw in Iraq, who beheaded the family of a man who ran an icemaking factory because "They didn't have icemakers in Mohammed's time."

David Pye talked a lot about the difference between craftsmanship with individuality, and craftsmanship that is bland, and industrially produced, but I think there is a lot of room for creativity and skill somewhere in between. (and really, how many of those period shops were just early versions of industrial processes? looking at you Sheffield...and you, japanese gunsmiths prior to the samurai period crackdown, and the inchuthill nail pile, and chinese cast iron weapons, and.....)

Meh. You can have my angle grinder when you pry it from my cold...dead...hands. Signed, some ranting armchair blacksmith on the internet that only forges a couple of days a week.

[Daswulf]

Nobody Special, that has to be about the best reply I've read to this yet. Love your take on it! 

SmoothBore also. 

[Glenn]

Who now days takes the time to even personalize their tools.

It is good to use the "old school" techniques so you can appreciate what we have available to work with and use today. "Old school" is the better way sometimes as was discussed with saws, chisels, etc above.

[swedefiddle]

Pardon Me,

I am from the "Old School" and I think I can remember getting the "Strap" an awful lot.

Pardon Me? Were you saying something? I can't remember.

Neil

[ThomasPowers]

Power hammer has been around since the 900's; I attended the Medieval Technology Conference at Penn State about 20+ years ago and saw some very good documentation on a water powered one from the 900's.

[gote]

The angle grinder comment is only valid if you claim that you do it the 1875 way. We are all free blacksmiths and we have the right to do things in our own way. The comment tells me that the commenter is not a person with great insight in blacksmithing (or anything else for that matter)

Personally i use the hot cut if the piece is hot anyway, or the end will be heated or if I want the beveled ends and the stock is not too long to handle comfortably. If i want precision or if the cut is small (=quickly done) I use the hack saw. Otherwise I use the angle grinder.

I agree it is sometimes faster to use a punch than a drill press.

[gote]

Glenn, If I had one of these, I would never use it in the forge. Far too attractive to take any risks.

[metalmangeler]

Ask him to prove someone did not have an angle grinder in 1875.