JHCC Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 I won't presume to dictate to the professional, full-time, or more experienced smiths in our midst, but my own approach to this is also "The best way is whatever works best", with the addendum "to achieve the desired effect". The desired effect may be a particular surface finish (be it rough fire scale, deliberately exaggerated hammer marks, subtle undulations of a flatter-smoothed surface, or ground mathematically flat with a high polish), a specific practical use or purpose, a degree of structural strength, speed of production, the cachet of being "hand-made", and so on. All of these are mediated by the skill level of the smith, the desires of the client/end user, and the tools and materials available. In my own case, as an "evenings-and-weekends" hobby blacksmith who doesn't have to make a living from my craft, I tend to lean towards doing things by hand, partly because the practice improves my skill level, partly because I don't have a whole lot of power tooling (although I'm learning to love the angle grinder!), and partly because I love the aesthetics of a hand-finished piece. (Also, I don't know how to arc or gas weld.) For a professional smith, drawing out a railroad spike into 1/4" square is a waste of time; for me, it's developing my hammer technique and arm strength (and uses material I have at hand). It sure as hell does NOT mean that I think I'm better than anyone else because I'm somehow free from the taint of the Industrial Revolution or the sinful corruption of handheld electrics. It just means that I'm too busy to get over to the steel yard, too cheap to buy new stock, and not particularly concerned with the time spent drawing out that could be used for other (smithing and non-smithing) purposes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beammeupscotty Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 48 minutes ago, SmoothBore said: Your garden variety Liberal does tend to be defensive when confronted with harsh reality. I guess you could say it's their "Traditional Method", ... of coping with a failed ideology. Of course the actual intent of the "offending" post, was to expand on the idea that YOUR own "Traditions" are just as valid as those of the past. . Pretty much a standard "traditional" justification for bad behavior by failed conservative ideology. Go Bernie! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 Well actually there were a BUNCH of hobby blacksmiths around the early 1900's as the Arts and Crafts Movement was in full swing---one of my blacksmithing books was published around the start of WWI by the magazine Popular Science (1914 IIRC); didn't hurt when the Gothic Revival of the 1920's was in full swing either. Now if by "turn of the century" you meant Dec 31st 2000; not too big a change from nowadays I would expect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
01tundra Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 I mix new and more traditional techniques, it really depends on what I'm doing and what I'm in the mood for. If I'm doing repetitive production work where the clients are either not willing to pay for, or see no value in doing things the more "traditional" way, then I use whatever method minimizes my labor, yet gives me comparable and satisfactory results. If I think doing something with more modern equipment will truly devalue the work (in my mind), then I will do it in a more traditional method. I often reach for the hack saw or file in the shop, but a lot of times it's because I don't feel like getting extension cords out or I have some fine tuning work to do. If I have to cut 20 pieces of angle.....I'll leave the hack saw where it hangs and plug the band saw in. If I'm making a single piece for myself or as a gift I often try to stick to more traditional methods because I can switch my business mind off and recongnize that I'm working for "fun", not profit. This is real important to me so that my work doesn't just become another "job". If I have to cut something that would take me an hour with a hammer and cold chisel, twenty minutes with a cut-off blade on a grinder or ten seconds with my plasma cutter.......well......call me a poser Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzonoqua Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 well....haters gonna hate! Can't think of a professional shop that doesn't have a rack full of grinders... just another tool... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmoothBore Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 7 hours ago, beammeupscotty said: Go Bernie! Now THAT'S funny. And they say Commies don't have a sense of humor ..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forging Carver Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 10 hours ago, JHCC said: I won't presume to dictate to the professional, full-time, or more experienced smiths in our midst, but my own approach to this is also "The best way is whatever works best", with the addendum "to achieve the desired effect". The desired effect may be a particular surface finish (be it rough fire scale, deliberately exaggerated hammer marks, subtle undulations of a flatter-smoothed surface, or ground mathematically flat with a high polish), a specific practical use or purpose, a degree of structural strength, speed of production, the cachet of being "hand-made", and so on. All of these are mediated by the skill level of the smith, the desires of the client/end user, and the tools and materials available. In my own case, as an "evenings-and-weekends" hobby blacksmith who doesn't have to make a living from my craft, I tend to lean towards doing things by hand, partly because the practice improves my skill level, partly because I don't have a whole lot of power tooling (although I'm learning to love the angle grinder!), and partly because I love the aesthetics of a hand-finished piece. (Also, I don't know how to arc or gas weld.) For a professional smith, drawing out a railroad spike into 1/4" square is a waste of time; for me, it's developing my hammer technique and arm strength (and uses material I have at hand). It sure as hell does NOT mean that I think I'm better than anyone else because I'm somehow free from the taint of the Industrial Revolution or the sinful corruption of handheld electrics. It just means that I'm too busy to get over to the steel yard, too cheap to buy new stock, and not particularly concerned with the time spent drawing out that could be used for other (smithing and non-smithing) purposes. I totally agree! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everything Mac Posted January 20, 2016 Author Share Posted January 20, 2016 17 hours ago, tzonoqua said: well....haters gonna hate! Can't think of a professional shop that doesn't have a rack full of grinders... just another tool... He he he. All the best Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom H Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Why 1875? Why not 1775? Use wrought iron only, (preferably made on location), ditch the safety glasses, make your own files, turn off the lights, etc.,.,. Do it however you want to. Nothing will be made EXACTLY like it used to be, not even at Williamsburg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Okay, ease up guys. Taking cheap shots at anybody is borderline against IFI rules. Taking notice of cheap shots is just giving them weight. Do we all know the 3 poison subjects to NEVER discuss at work? Religion, politics and money. There's a reason we don't discuss them here. Won't help either side of a discussion about the OP. The smart smith makes what the customer WANTS with what's specified or acceptable. Doesn't have arguments, call names or discuss poison subjects in the shop let alone in public .Back to the topic okay? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Actually historically it was rare for smiths to be ironsmelters in Europe and the Americas. Iron has been a major trade item since the iron age began---cf "currency bars". There are a couple of examples of remote norse settlements that both made and forged their own iron---a famous one being l'anse aux Meadows; but these are considered rather the exception that proves the rule. Anyone have good solid information on this point wrt Africa and Asia? Now if someone wants to take pokes at me for my appearance, (looking more like Santa Claus's evil twin Skippy every year!) please feel free; curmudgeons tend to have thick skins---even if I've managed to thin it in places with belt grinders, stone grinders and angle grinders... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 But did you thin it in the TRADITIONAL places? I have a couple pavement thinned spots an addition. . . Oh yeah a tree thinned spot on my head. Uh, I have more but can't remember. Poking you just makes you happy. Not that that's a bad thing but. . . Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Belt and stone grinders: mainly on the hands; angle grinders tend to want to add to my belly scar collection. I blame my fascination with blades on being stabbed in the back on my zeroth birthday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Yeah, angle grinders tend to be the most playful. A Head Poobah from the office came by the drill shop to straighten me out on how quickly I should answer the phone. He didn't like my response ON the phone. I don't sit next to a phone all day I'm doing dangerous things let it ring. I was using the 9" Milwaukee grinder and told him it takes time to spool down so I can put it down. He INSISTED the rubber pads on the back meant you could just put it down. I told him I'd write him up if he even pulled the trigger but he was a boss and did. He almost dropped it as it came up to speed, (rapid start) then he turned it disk UP and laid it on the table. As soon as he let go of the trigger it torqued itself vertical and started doing a dance on the disk. I'd placed the bench vise between me and the grinder but he was in the open. It chased him into the middle of the shop floor. Did about $40.00 damage to the grinder too. It was a VIOLENT dance especially when the disk started coming apart. I didn't have to write him up and he never said anything about how I ran MY shop afterwards and everybody let the phone ring if they actually wanted to talk to me. At least it didn't hurt him more than a little scaring. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 I was once loading my powerhammer into my small pickup by myself. I had it laid down and was raising the base so I could slide it up in the bed when a fellow from the city came by and demanded I abandon it propped up on blocks to go listen to something he was all het up about in the front yard---I think it was the original railing around the front porch didn't meet the code 100 years later and was a "safety hazard".. He grew quite irate when I refused to leave what I considered a much more actively dangerous safety hazard to go look at something that had been that way for probably a 100 years---(we had a 1940 photograph of the house showing the original porch and it wasn't new in that picture...) I went my rounds on the porch several times and it still matched the picture when we finally sold the place. (Best one was when an inspector told me that the drop was too high to not have a code meeting railing and I asked him what was the cut off? Front yard needed to be regraded anyway and I would just make it meet code for the original railing---he couldn't tell me! "So how come you know it doesn't meet code if you can't cite the code for it???") Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmoothBore Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 29 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said: I was once loading my powerhammer into my small pickup by myself. I had it laid down and was raising the base so I could slide it up in the bed when a fellow from the city came by and demanded I abandon it propped up on blocks to go listen to something he was all het up about in the front yard---I think it was the original railing around the front porch didn't meet the code 100 years later and was a "safety hazard".. He grew quite irate when I refused to leave what I considered a much more actively dangerous safety hazard to go look at something that had been that way for probably a 100 years---(we had a 1940 photograph of the house showing the original porch and it wasn't new in that picture...) I went my rounds on the porch several times and it still matched the picture when we finally sold the place. (Best one was when an inspector told me that the drop was too high to not have a code meeting railing and I asked him what was the cut off? Front yard needed to be regraded anyway and I would just make it meet code for the original railing---he couldn't tell me! "So how come you know it doesn't meet code if you can't cite the code for it???") Hmmm ..... that sounds kinda' "political" to me. As well it should, ... and it's a perfect example. In these times, when Government intrudes into EVERY nook & cranny of your life, it's impossible to "separate" it from the rest of your day-to-day issues, ... and still carry on an intelligent conversation. As for the "offensive" simile, ... well, ... we live in a time when an entire generation is searching desperately for something to be offended about. I'm just doing my bit, to insure their ambitions are fulfilled. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brother terry Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 Wow! One would never believe you all are of the brotherhood of blacksmiths. If some one wants to chew Juicy Fruit gum let him. If another wants to chew Double mint, that's his prerogative. Some people like straight bows and some compound. What's the big deal. I think you all beat this dead dog long enough. I'm new to blacksmithing and join this group because I thought I could learn how to work my fire so i could make a weld with my home made forge. And I want to do that because I thought it would be fun. No other reason. I want to make my own tools because I want to. You guys have a lot of talent as I've viewed from your pictures. I want to learn how to do that. To me it's an art form. I've been creating things with modern tools for a long time. And I did because I want too. I already know how to bicker. If that's all you guys can do then I'm afraid I wasted my time. How about spending your time and talent teaching us new comers how to get started. And lets all work together to make this forum a place where people can learn from your experience. If a man learns how to do a trade better than anyone else and doesn't share his wisdom before he dies his knowledge was wasted. But if he teaches others what he knows, he changes the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 Welcome aboard new guy, glad to have you and your opinion. If you'll put your general location in the header you might be surprised how many Iforge members are within visiting distance. This is actually an ancient disagreement at one time the guilds lynched people for introducing new processes, burned them out, etc. Another point, like a family some arguments are family tradition and if you don't think Iforge is a world spanning family you haven't been here long. Also like most families there's the members you wouldn't associate with if grandmother didn't insist. Do what I do when a topic or person annoys me enough to make me not want to visit the site. I don't read them. As to learning stuff from us cranky old curmudgeons I've made almost 18,000 posts and some of them are sort of helpful as have some of the others involved in this topic. Sure some are new guys who ask silly questions have opinions based on WOW or social media videos but that's okay nobody is born knowing this stuff. The site has sections accessible from the front page that are clearly titled, there are something like half a million posts there. You can read about most any question you might have, I know I've probably already answered them many times over. That may seem hostile, I don't really mean it to be but it's late, I have a meeting of the club tomorrow and still have a couple things to dig out in the dark and it's COLD out. I may be a touch shorter than I should be. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everything Mac Posted January 23, 2016 Author Share Posted January 23, 2016 2 hours ago, brother terry said: Wow! One would never believe you all are of the brotherhood of blacksmiths. If some one wants to chew Juicy Fruit gum let him. If another wants to chew Double mint, that's his prerogative. Some people like straight bows and some compound. What's the big deal. I think you all beat this dead dog long enough. I'm new to blacksmithing and join this group because I thought I could learn how to work my fire so i could make a weld with my home made forge. And I want to do that because I thought it would be fun. No other reason. I want to make my own tools because I want to. You guys have a lot of talent as I've viewed from your pictures. I want to learn how to do that. To me it's an art form. I've been creating things with modern tools for a long time. And I did because I want too. I already know how to bicker. If that's all you guys can do then I'm afraid I wasted my time. How about spending your time and talent teaching us new comers how to get started. And lets all work together to make this forum a place where people can learn from your experience. If a man learns how to do a trade better than anyone else and doesn't share his wisdom before he dies his knowledge was wasted. But if he teaches others what he knows, he changes the world. Welcome aboard Brother Terry, Please don't tar the entire forum as a result of this one thread. It does everyone good to have a decent discussion on a topic we have different views on from time to time. It broadens everyone's horizons in one way or another. Spend a little more time here and you will realise that most, if not all of the people that have replied to this thread have made hundreds if not thousands of helpful posts to hundreds if not thousands of questions asked by new comers such as yourself. - Many of those to simple questions I myself have asked. It's very nice to see someone has taken what is often a considerable amount of time out of their day to write out a thoughtful and easily understood reply. If you search the forums you should easily find answers to some of the questions you have posted above. All the best Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmoothBore Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 If you work at something long enough, ... you tend to get calluses. And that's a good thing. That thickening and toughening of the skin, is natures way of protecting and conditioning you, ... so that you can function more effectively in the real world. The same thing is true, if you're "thin skinned" in your associations with others. That other guy wasn't put on this Planet to make you feel all "warm & fuzzy", ... and it's quite likely that his life's experiences have lead him to hold opinions that are different from your own. And again, ... that's a good thing. There's much to be learned from "rubbing elbows" with a variety of individuals. If you've lead a sheltered life, ... your first response would naturally be, that the "other guy" has got it wrong. But eventually, ... if you're thoughtful and intelligent, ... you'll come to understand that he's not necessarily "right" or "wrong", ... just different. And if it wasn't for those "different" guys, ... we'd still be Knapping our tools from Flint. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 Brother Terry, This was the second of your 2 (two) posts to the site. 6 hours ago, brother terry said: I already know how to bicker. If that's all you guys can do then I'm afraid I wasted my time. How about spending your time and talent teaching us new comers how to get started. The Blacksmithing General Discussion section has 7,560 topics and 105,619 posts. That is only one section of the site. We are visited by over 150 world wide countries and yes people have different opinions, and even different cultures. We learn from the diversity. As a newbie, your questions have been answered many times, by many different people. If you have questions, please do a site search, and a bit of research on the subject. The information is on the site. Tell us what your question is, what you have found during your search and research.Tell us what you learned when you took the information to the forge. We need to know that you are interested in learning, and where to start with our answers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianinsa Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 12 hours ago, Frosty said: I may be a touch shorter than I should be. Frosty The Lucky. Terry you may not know , but Frosty got hit on the head by a tree. Sorry Jerry it was just too easy Terry life is too short not to make light of it sometimes! Lots of the folk here like good banter, this thread is somewhat tongue in cheek as 1875 is sort of like a line in the sand (on a beach with the tide coming in) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WL smith Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 Terry sir not all of us are grouchy mostly just old and tired! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 11 hours ago, ianinsa said: Terry you may not know , but Frosty got hit on the head by a tree. Sorry Jerry it was just too easy Terry life is too short not to make light of it sometimes! Lots of the folk here like good banter, this thread is somewhat tongue in cheek as 1875 is sort of like a line in the sand (on a beach with the tide coming in) Oh GOOD GRIEF! Was that a gimme or what? I know you're not sorry Ian, I sure wouldn't be, that's just too choice a straight line to pass on. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notownkid Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 On 1/23/2016 at 1:18 AM, brother terry said: Wow! One would never believe you all are of the brotherhood of blacksmiths Oh we are a Brotherhood of Blacksmiths alright from a zillion countries around the world or we would have left the site a long time ago. Education on any subjects is sorting through the chaff to find the few bits of wisdom that is there. You can set in organized schools for the usual 16 yrs. and come out with a far smaller amount of knowledge than these folks on this site have to offer and dish out regularly for Free just some Chaff comes with the dish. Everyone only has so many days to be around some of us have used a large portion of that time, some of these folks on IFI have a HUGE amount of information to offer and have many times given it here. Look at the posts which will take you months if you are serious, it's called research and will give you those "few bits of wisdom" mentioned above. If you are looking to be spoon fed the wisdom, I don't believe it will happen here. If you want one on one get your checkbook out and start attending classes, unfortunately they are all over this country and others. brother terry, you mentioned Banter, that makes this site and the Chat room interesting the give and take with people around the world not just my neighborhood I have certainly learned a huge amount of knowledge here and I'm one of the ones who have used a lot of my allotted time and keep on learning it's a never ending project. my .01 1/2c worth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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