They didn't have angle grinders in 1875...

[KRS]

Ask him to show you a youtube video from 1875

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oa_hiLXLbTc

[beslagsmed]

I'm guessing if angle grinders were available in the "old" days they would have been used.  What ever it takes to get the job done.  I've got a screwed up left shoulder, so if I was doing all the filing by hand, well it takes the toll faster on me.  For the same reason I built my power hammer!

[Forging Carver]

I tend to like to mix the best of both worlds. I use a hacksaw now which can cut Through steel pretty fast. I use files a lot, but sometimes the HF belt sander. I pretty much take advantage of what's best for the job. Just becuase there is modern technology, that doesn't always make it better than some of the "old school" tools.

[ThomasPowers]

One me and my old college roommate were putting up a structure made from 4"x4"s held together with lag bolts.  He had a fancy new battery powered driver and I had and old brace where I had found a bit for it that drove 1/2" drive sockets.  He made fun of my "old ways" so I challenged him to a race.  I won hands down as I could torque the lags all the way down at full speed where the driver would start to slow down and complain.   Now if we had been in the shop I would have my pants handed to me by a large drill with a power cord......

 

 

[Everything Mac]

Sorry mods - try as I might I can't get a reply through to my other thread or any thread for that matter just now.

So this is the video that sparked the whole debate. 

 

 

As for the thread - thanks for replying. 

 

I think there is too much romanticism in blacksmithing. The idea of the lone smith working in a dark shack in the middle of no where with no electricity and black magic aplenty. If that's what the client wants to think then that's fine by me but anyone who practices the craft really should know better. 

I really don't think that using modern equipment takes anything away from a finished piece and to compare something that has been hand made to factory made tat is just wrong. I guess that depends on your definition of hand made but to me every tool I can think of requires a certain amount of competence to use correctly. 

 

For example I made a love heart from a horse shoe this week as a gift for a friend's wedding. My misses came home and took one look before reporting that I'd stamped one of the names the wrong way round. - After a lot of curses I was faced with two options: Completely reforge the piece from scratch or run a weld over the stamped name, grind it flush and then re-stamp it. 

 

- I chose the latter option. I ran a bead over the area, ground it flush with the angle grinder, got it hot and gave it a good wire brush before stamping the name in again. The recipient will never know. My misses thought I'd made an entirely new replacement and I dare say even many smiths would be hard pressed to notice anything, and why should they; it was flush, there was no colour difference, no scratches from the flap wheel... 

Is that wrong of me? Have I some how cheated the client, robbed them of something? No of course not. I saved myself 30 minutes of forging by spending 10 minutes with modern tools and the knowledge of how to use them. 

 

Cheers 

Andy

 

 

 

 

 

[Wroughton]

You haven't a clue about what you're capable of until you have a slight inkling of how ALL processes work, new or old. 

Lessons in hand sawing, lag bolt driving and remodeling a submarine as good examples here in this thread.

Good thoughts on economy of labor also. This is probably anyone's most valid concern. If it isn't then you're just mucking around. I can do most of my work by hand. Do I want to deliver said work in a month? OR A YEAR?

Running around looking for a grinder for 5 minutes when a big cold chisel and sledge will knock that 1/2" bolt head off there in a whack is ......ignorance. Chiseling off 100, 1/2" bolt heads instead of using an impact wrench is ......stupid.

Learn, I dare you. I triple dog dare you.

In 500 years will some futuristic smith be rebuilding ancient Miller mig welders, arguing thier virtues, and welding instead of using his 3D holographic printer? Most likely. 

 

[Arceye Blue]

21 hours ago, mutant said:

To me, there's nothing wrong with working with or without modern day tools. Doesn't matter to me if you use propane or coal either. For me, at least, blacksmithing both a skill and an art and the tools the artist wants to use is up to them.

 I agree with your comment as long as it is not bothering any one else ,do what suits you.

Why should  you have to conform with what some one else thinks ,it's my forge and I will work my way .

[ThomasPowers]

I find my hand sledge and good sized cold chisel very handy at the scrapyard to pay for just the item I want---also my 30" hacksaw---bowsaw frame with metal cutting bandsaw blade section...OTOH I have tipped the yardman to oxypropane cut a large item for me.

THERE IS ONLY *ONE* CORRECT WAY TO DO ANYTHING BLACKSMITHING AND THAT IS:   ANYWAY THAT WORKS!

[Rashelle]

50 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said:

 ANYWAY THAT WORKS!

That is a good way of putting it. It implies more then one way. Not exclusively one way. Sort of like Bruce Lee "Tau of Jute Keen Do" Tau meaning Way not meaning THE way. We each have our preferred ways to do things according to our personal preferences, abilities, equipment, training, etc. To say or imply that others are wrong, idiots, imbeciles, etc. for doing things a different way IS wrong. (Without getting into legalese and arguing semantics here, there are bad ways that are safety hazards.) I have my preferred way, I also have the way I'll approach a given task due to efficiency regardless of my preference. Others have their own ways. It does not mean that different view points should be talked down to or belittled.

[Everything Mac]

What is the old adage? Ask 5 smiths how to do something and they will tell you 6 different ways of doing it? 

 

What if I was to say that my work is better than yours because at no point did I use electricity and you did. 

 

All the best 

Andy

[Ethan Stone]

personally i go all out old, but the reason for this is because im 14 and iv got a lot of time on my hands. on the other hand i am looking into making a power hammer, so im not strictly a traditionalist. but using a hand file hack saw ect, sure made me have alot mare respect for the guys 150 years ago and such. my opinion.

 

 

Ethan.

[gote]

I thought you had to ask three blacksmiths to get five answers

[notownkid]

The reason "old" blacksmiths used all the hand tools was IT WAS WHAT THEY HAD TO WORK WITH,  would they have used "Modern" tools if they had them, of course they didn't do it the hard way because they enjoyed it. 

My Dad was born dirt poor in 1908 in very rural Vermont one night at supper I mentioned "the good old days" in about a 15min speech he assured me there were no such things as the Good Old Days, he told of watching baby sisters and brothers dying from diseases easy cured in 1960 (imagine what he would think today) when I was getting the lecture, the poverty, hand labor for a few cents a days, on and on.  He grew up hard and made sure my brother and I did as well so we knew what it was really like.  I worked with him till he died at 85 and every once in a while he would go into another "Good old days" memories lecture. 

I listen to or read on the net about the old ways but I'll bet 99% of these experts still have electricity in their homes or a windmill, solar panels etc.   Drive electric very expensive cars, I phones, all the apps. and goodies to go with them.  Personally I like to know I can do it the "OLD" way but day in day out I'll use modern tools even if they come from Harbor Freight.   

[Rashelle]

I figure if you ask 5 smiths, you should get at least 8 answers. Heehee.

19 hours ago, Everything Mac said:

What if I was to say that my work is better than yours because at no point did I use electricity and you did. 

If someone is better then me then is isn't because me or they used electricity. My reply to that is along those lines. So I (and I have to put I  as I can not speak for anyone else) would of answered along those lines most likely. "You might be a better blacksmith then me but it isn't because of the tools we use or do not use." The problem being that the person that said that to you sounds like a troll and is just trying to make themselves feel better. Not much you can do with trolls as they are safe behind the anonymity of the internet. (Which can lead to some serious ill-will towards a "person" you'll never see or know in real life.) Frustrating as that may be. So when a anonymous "person" gets to me I have to make myself let it go. (Good thing blacksmithing is stress release for myself, (I get to hit something) that and punching bags, and the reminder that I am not getting shot at so no reason to fret.)

[Everything Mac]

Absolutely Rashelle. I was just trying to continue the conversation.

 

All the best 

Andy

[Joel OF]

HMRC want their pound of flesh whatever, keep your lady sweet and go on holiday once a year. File that or grind that into George Osbourne's face, whatever you can afford. 

[Anachronist58]

Any way I can. 4130 steel; Mark with pipe cutter; hand power hacksaw; hog  off mismatch with giant mill file, turn on 1934 Southbend, etc. A seasonal creek  runs through the Smithy - is that old school or the situational paradigm? Fantastic Thread. 

[ThomasPowers]

Lets see Mild Steel: mid 19th century; powerhammer mid 900's; sorry a power hammer is almost 1000 years more traditional than using mild steel.

Locating your source of income where you can't make any money from it for part of every year would not be considered proper. (And the most A-Historical thing you can do is having a blacksmith shop with only 1 person working in it----you have the journeymen and apprentices do all the scut handwork!)

[Bud in PA]

For those who want to do it the old fashion way, I tip my hat to them. Nice to realize that if society fails as some predict you could still do what you needed to do. My own self I appreciate "modern", especially medicine, and modern medical practices. That's the only reason I am still here able to type this.  In my physical shape if  had I to do it all by hand it wouldn't get done.

[gote]

There is a difference between what we can do and what is rational to do. Even if we have the knowledge to use medieval methods (and that is a good thing)  we do not have to use them today unless there is a reason.

[beammeupscotty]

On 1/14/2016 at 3:49 PM, SmoothBore said:

Well now, ... I'm lazy as home-made sin, ... and slower than the thought processes of a Liberal.

But I like to "make" things, ... "traditional" things.

And sometimes that requires "traditional" techniques, ... and sometimes not.

The common factor in "how" I make the things I do, ... is that they're ALL done, in whatever fashion I xxxx-well-please.

------------------------------------------------------

When I was very young, ... there were still a few working Blacksmith Shops in this area, ... performing a variety of Mechanical Repairs, and Fabrication.

By 1970 they were mostly gone.

But while they were still open, ... they ALL used Arc Welders, Oxy/Acetylene Torches, Cut-Off Saws, Grinders and Power Hammers.

Had they not, ... they wouldn't have lasted long enough for me to have seen them in operation.

I'm sure glad THEY didn't have the Internet, ... telling them what to think .....

Thanks so much for turning a discussion about equipment into an insult toward those on the opposite side of the political fence.

[ThomasPowers]

I still think it boils down to skills; have you ever met a person that spent more time and effort trying to make an arc weld *look* like a forge weld than actually making a forge weld would have?  I've met several; they have encouraged, (though not directly...), me to use forge welds whenever possible to keep my hand in.

People tend to use what they know over what they don't know even if it's harder.  Teaching them a different way may just set their back up---or get you the call "I tried it that other way and Wow!  Work has speeded up bigtime!"  (An example of this is one of my students---now a professional smith!---was making a set of tentstakes from an old scrapped piece of railing.  As I recall he would take a hammer and break out the uprights---1/2" solid sq stock--, then hot cut them in half and point the cut end.  I pointed out that if he cut them at a sharp angle then both pieces had the point 80% done.  A heat to clean up and center to point and a heat to bend the top and you are done.  He had a bunch of reasons not to do it that way---but I got the above call later and his throughput tripled and his fuel cost decreased greatly as well: $$$$)

[Forging Carver]

The way is see it is that smiths in the past evolved and took advantage of the modern smithing technology of that time. They weren't concerned about being "old school", which isn't a bad thing by all means. Their whole purpose was to forge in the most efficient, fastest way possible. However, sometimes the "old" tools are easier than the modern tools. Cutting a small piece of stock could be quicker with a hacksaw than needing to get out the angle grinder and plug it in. Using a file to dress a small piece can be much better than a grinder or Dremel which could take away too much too fast. If you want to be old school with no power tools, then good for you. There aren't any rules saying you can't enjoy yourself that way.  What I am trying to say is don't worry about trying to stay in one time period. Each period brought great technology and tools, so why not use the best of them to get the job done.

[Frozenforge]

 The only time I think the traditional vs modern methods matter is when someone is being paid for a certain method or are being deceitful.

I don't believe that there were very many people blacksmithing as a hobby at the turn of the century and as a business if there was a way to produce a product easier and cheaper it was welcomed.

I seem to remember that oxy acetelyne really proved itself by a demonstration of cutting portholes at a shipyard. In 20 minutes it performed what took many hours to cut by hand!

[SmoothBore]

22 hours ago, beammeupscotty said:

Thanks so much for turning a discussion about equipment into an insult toward those on the opposite side of the political fence.

Your garden variety Liberal does tend to be defensive when confronted with harsh reality.

I guess you could say it's their "Traditional Method", ... of coping with a failed ideology.

 

Of course the actual intent of the "offending" post, was to expand on the idea that YOUR own "Traditions" are just as valid as those of the past.

 

.