They didn't have angle grinders in 1875...

[Bud in PA]

Thank God for giving me a thick skin, it helps to avoid ulcers. My standard reply to someone who insists that their opinion is " much more righter than mine"  I reach into my pocket and pull out a 25 cent piece and hand it to them and tell them to use it to call someone who cares about what they have to say on the subject. Although my language is much harsher towards them.

[Frosty]

I just offer them the hammer. It's MUCH more satisfying to see their jaws clamp shut while they turn their back and walk away in public self inflicted humiliation. I don't have to say mean things, I don't say ANYTHING. It makes the audience like me better and it saves me $0.25.

There's nothing a blowhard hates more than the challenge to prove it.

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

Some folks expect the people they are asking for help to do all the heavy lifting; never considering that as a supplicant it behooves them to do as much of the work as possible making it so easy on the helpers that it's a joy to help the helpees .  And then there are the ones that basically say "Blacksmithing is going to die out if you don't spend your time and effort helping me!"  Which seems a bit presumptuous as I have given my "intro to smithing/set the hook class"  to hundreds of people for free; in fact I have two new folk showing up in 20 minutes to see if they like smithing.  (Courtesy of Fort Bliss, army kids tend to be a bit better about being on time and following instructions and their parents less concerned about them working with red hot steel.)   That's what I forgot to get at the fleamarket today a chaffing dish to cook some banters in---well bop me with a birch tree!

[Daswulf]

"  I think you all beat this dead dog long enough." ? Naw, they are just dragging it around to see what position would be best to lay it to rest. Takes a while....

I love reading through these topics. Lots of insight and knowledge from people with different backgrounds. 

[ianinsa]

To get back on topic! I've enjoyed reading this thread and it has raised some interesting views. However in reference to the arbitrary 1875 date , well its quite recent so we have a 'fair' understanding of what was used and how? Well in truth much of the how is debatable as much was 'lore and trade secrets' and when we go further back it gets even more murky. For instance we still don't know how they made a 'Saracen sword' , recent discoveries have shown that some ancient armor used laminations of differing metals that improve penetration resistance, recent discoveries in India show iron workings much older than previously thought. Similarly it is now believed that the Romans had armored knights. We still don't know how the ancient Egyptians and Inca could cut basalt and granite in ways that we can't replicate. Now they have found ancient Chinese ships that were iron clad .... well way before the civil war(American)  

[SmoothBore]

2 hours ago, ianinsa said:

However in reference to the arbitrary 1875 date , well its quite recent so we have a 'fair' understanding of what was used and how?

Often, we think we know "when" a particular tool, ... or process, ... or type of material came into use, ... and will use that, as a way of "dating" an object.

But the "thing" about making those kind of assumptions, ... is that we rarely have an insight into when it became "accepted", ... or readily available.

 

A couple of my interests, are Firearms, ... and Farm Tractors.

The earliest Tractors, ( the ones we use to establish a "date" when that technology came into use ) ... were huge, expensive and quite rare "curiosities".

They existed for at least a generation, before smaller more "successful" models came into widespread use.

Did it take decades for the technology that created the massive "Wallace Bear", to evolve into something like the John Deere "B" ?

Of course not, ... but it took that long for the "old" generation's natural skepticism for an unproven product, to be supplanted by their children's willingness to go a different route.

 

And the evolution of Firearms saw similar situations.

The Civil War exposed an entire generation of Americans to Firearms innovations that had been developing since the 1830's. ( Metallic Cartridges, repeating Rifles, and Revolvers. )

And the decade following the War saw huge leaps forward in Firearms technology, as-well-as their universal acceptance in the marketplace.

 

I have no reason to think the evolution of Blacksmithing, followed any different pattern.

GrandPa Farmer, ... or GrandPa Blacksmith, ... controlled the money, and made the decisions about how things were done.

And although the "new" thing might look good "on paper", ... they were slow to adopt change.

The prevailing Apprenticeship system, also did much to perpetuate the "old ways", ... at the expense of emerging innovations.

 

So, ... the fact that so-and-so invented "something" in a particular year, really meant little, in regard to when that practice came into widespread use.

 

My GrandPa shaved with a straight razor, until the day he died, ... even though the electric razor ( in his Dresser Drawer ) had been around for 50 years.

 

.

[Frosty]

Hey wait a minute I want to hear about those Birch Banter Boppers! Who cares how the old tiers did things? Lets get back on topic. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

Definitely a lag between discovery and general use.  "Practical Blacksmithing" Richardson from 1889, 1890 and 1891 has discussions in it about how to work the new material---mild steel  when the Bessemer/Kelly process dates to the early 1850's and the last commercial wrought iron manufacturer that I know of went out of business in the 1970's (?) and donated their factory to the Blists Hill museum in Coalbrookdale UK.  (On the other hand I'm pretty sure that we were the first to land on the moon!)   And Frosty  stop requesting "Shaken not stirred" or another earthquake might happen!

[Frosty]

Hey, don't look at me it wasn't my fault!

Frosty The Lucky.

[Everything Mac]

There is a time and a place for doing things the old way. But I'd say embracing new technology wholeheartedly is the way forward.

No more bickering or you'll go on Santa's good list and won't get any coal next christmas. 

Andy

[SpankySmith]

The avatar I use is my great-grandfather's blacksmithing shop, he proudly posted signs saying he had acetylene for welding.  I must be my great-grandfather's daughter, because I have also always taken to new tools.  I grew up cursing the idiot who insisted on using flat-head screws when there were perfectly good phillips head screws available, now I curse the phillips head in favor of the star drives.  Better, easier, faster.  Why hot cut a piece of stock for a cross, which for me takes a good long time to do, when I can do it so quickly and easily using a band saw?   I'm nostalgic about some things, but not tools.  I've spent/wasted way too much time in my life trying to do a job without the right tool to do it.  If the tool is available, if it's easier for me to use than the "old way," then that's what I do.  Nostalgia is nice for back porch conversations, but I'm just a hobbyist with a limited amount of forge and shop time in my weekly schedule, I'm more interested in producing what I can in the little time I have.     Just my two cents worth, of course.