Historical shop/tools vs. "modern"methods

[Will Brouwers]

Hello all,

To begin, I am only a beginner and am a hobbyist at best. My "blacksmith shop" is what I haul up from the basement (minus the anvil) and set up in the back yard. My other "shop" is my side of the basement. I have recently been cutting some split crosses from 3/4 square bar with my hacksaw. One of my friends who lives near me couldn't believe that I had made all those cuts with just a hacksaw. He suggested I get a grinder, and I told him that I have been eyeing portable bandsaws...

Anyways, back to my point. I worked with a smith who wanted his shop to be historically accurate, no electricity etc. I like the idea and the sentiment, but I am wrestling with how practical it is. I really like the look of a down to earth blacksmith shop with no plastic or anything like that, but having those tools, like a portable bandsaw, is an amazing time and effort saver. I don't have many tools, and as I get more money and figure out what tools I need, I want to know if it is worth it to buy the more modern tools. Or, since I am a beginner and do this in my free time, is is not worth the extra expense?

I'm wondering what you guys do to find the balance, or what you would suggest. I have thought about making one of those cool old wooden chests/trunks to sit in the corner of my shop that would store all the blue, yellow and red plastic, or I thought about just staying with what I have, with the things that work, albeit a little slower than the fancy modern tools. Thanks for the insight and reading through this ramble!

-Will

[Davor]

It's up to you what you want to do and how. I would suggest do it in a way that it is the most fun to you. It is a hobby it’s not supposed to be a struggle. And even the smiths from a hundred years ago used the most modern tools they could get. Personal preference.

[Jobtiel1]

I think it depends on what you *like* to do. For example, if you like to do projects and don't care how you do them, using modern tools is no problem. If you like the sentiment of only using traditional/ hand tools, go for that. If you like to do a mix of them, do that. 

What I'm trying to say is, just do you.

*Edit* Davor just beat me to it, but I agree with what he said!

~Jobtiel

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

I also agree with Davor. My grandfather was a blacksmith with the Army in the early 1900s. Some of his exploits with General Blackjack Pershing in the Mexican campaign against Poncho Villa were fascinating to listen to. He told about transitioning from shoeing mules and horses and repairing mule drawn wagons to repairing the "newfangled" horseless modes of transportation model T Trucks & such. He was happy to make the switch from historical tools to the new mechanics tooling.

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

I agree with everyone else,

I figure that a rural village blacksmith would have been ecstatic to have a steam powered line shaft running a power hammer, lathe, drill press and grinder ect.. back when that stuff was top of the line tools, 

just the fact that your hand forging goods is pretty traditional in of itself if you think about it, 

lord mister ford dang sure ain’t making anything by hand now days,

he’s got robots now lol, 

 

[George N. M.]

This has been an on going discussion amongst traditional craft folk, not just blacksmiths.  Weavers can agonize over whether to use only a warp weighted loom vs. a horizontal hand loom vs. a modern computerized loom.

If you want to explore/experience the life and craft of a historic crafts person then you should stick with the tools and techniques of that period.  You could recreate a Celtic, Roman, Medieval, Colonial, American Civil War, Western Frontier, etc..

There has been a gradual evolution over time of tools an fuels.  Smiths up until the late Middle Ages used charcoal as forge fuel, with deforestation and charcoal becoming more expensive they turned to coal, propane forges are probably no more than 50 years old, induction forges are pretty recent.  Similarly, double bellows were used for centuries while the double chamber great bellows was invented in the later Middle Ages, hand crank blowers came in in the late 19th century, electric blowers in the 20th.

If you decide to recreate a particular historical period be aware of the "more authentic than thou" syndrome.  This is where people compete over who is more authentic.  It is foolish and can come to resemble obsessive compulsive disorder.  You can get into weird work arounds to justify some "rule" like not using electric tools but compressed air tools are OK.

So, do what you want and what is fun for you.  If you enjoy using charcoal fuel with an electric blower that is fine.  Mix and match tools and techniques as you see fit and there is no one to tell you that you are not a "real" smith because you use or don't use X.  It is all good.  

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[Steve Sells]

How many apprentices can you afford, Historically there were few one man shops. work was not all done by a lone smith

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

For me the ends justifies the means. As long as the finished item comes out looking how I want it to I'm good with it.  I am also 56 and time savers like power tools get used more than when I was younger. 

[Daswulf]

I'm with the group so far.  What do You want to do? Is what you make or want to make marketable? Would it be any more valuable showing you work with old style tools or craftsmanship, or would doing the same with more convenient modern tools fetch you the same price on the product? If it is for show in a historical sense or setting, then yes old ways may be much better and who is to say you cant do some stock prep behind the scenes outside visiting hours with modern tools. 

As BigGun said, the ends justify the means. What works for you? 

[Will Brouwers]

Thanks for all the wisdom guys! Willow, your comment on Ford and using robots made me laugh! Steve, I liked what you said about having apprentices, and as I have none, I figure the tools can take their place.

 I really appreciate you guys saying that I should do what I want and what works for me. I think my problem, as has always been my problem, is that I want both. Ice cream or brownie? Both. To have my cake or eat it? Both, haha.

I think what I will probably do is slowly invest in the tools that will make the most difference, while still enjoying the nostalgia of hand crafted, old timey things. 
 

Also, as George said, I could focus on a certain time period. I kind of want to focus on the early 1900’s, as my anvil was made in 1916, and I have a vise stamped U.S.L.H.S. Which stands for the United States Light House Service, which was active beginning in 1910 and going until they were absorbed into the Coast Guard.

 I also laugh, because of where I live, I need to have a contained fire which means I have a gas forge. How is that for historically accurate? Lol!

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

I’d be willing to bet a case of…. Brown soda pop that you can make just as good a project using a portable band saw to cut stock as you can using a hack saw to cut the same stock! 

I don’t know for sure but Im guessing that blacksmiths originally built the tools that built the machines that built even better machines that eventually replaced the blacksmiths lol 

because they were always learning and developing new tools to help speed up their production 

either way you choose, do your own thang! And have fun doing it! 

 

 

[Glenn]

No matter which time period you choose, or which tools you choose to work with, ALWAYS wear Personal Protection Equipment.  They only had two eyes from the beginning of time up until todays time.  Ten fingers come in handy too.

I have never heard anyone say did you use any electric to make that item, or did you use a (insert anvil brand name here), then I will pay you extra.

[ThomasPowers]

What Steve said; blacksmithing back pre-electric motors, was never a 1 man operation---shoot the smith's *family* would be employed if no one else!  (Take a look at all those 100+ year old pictures in the blacksmith's calendars or even at old paintings of smiths, 3-5 trained assistants was expected!)  (And charcoal is still the predominant forge fuel in the world as it can be made on every continent but Antarctica;  they started using coal in the High to Late Middle Ages according to Gies & Gies in "Cathedral Forge and Waterwheel"; but it never  totally replaced  charcoal as the Foxfire books point out and even today "traditionally made blades" in Asia are still forged with charcoal!)

Check out Goya's "The Forge"

Velázquez's "Apollo in the Forge of Vulcan"

Why do we think of a single person in a smithy?  A lot of America's history plays into this as on the frontier a smith might be limited to using family members or even their customers help to do projects.  Also as the "village" blacksmith's role was dying out many older smiths just kept on smithing until they died as it was the only job they knew and as the economics got worse it dwindled down to just them---hopefully with a powerhammer, grinder, drillpress---things that took the place of "expensive" help.  (Hollywood also plays a big part in our vision of past smiths.)

[BillyBones]

 Many of the tools i have are used in more places than at the forge. For example that port-band i use in the forge, i have also used it doing some plumbing work, cutting metal shelves in my barn, heck i even cut a piece of wood to throw in the fire pit with it. (not big wood, 4' of a 1"x3") Like that drill, you will use it at the forge, working on the car, drill a hole to hang a shelf for the wife, etc. The uses are numerus. There are tools that are only used at the forge, use my hammer and see how fast you get a reprimand, but when it comes to power tools or just expensive tools i ask my self where else can i use this? If i can think of 10 uses for 1 tool i will buy it over the one i can think of 1 use for. 

One note about the porta-band, do yourself a favor and spend the extra money on the deep cut if you decide to get one. 

[Steve Sells]

preferably battery powered so you can take it to salvage yard and avoid the per cut cost of sectioning larger items

[ThomasPowers]

[Will Brouwers]

You'd need a BIG bandsaw for that one Thomas!

You guys have got me thinking about investing in a portable bandsaw. I like the idea of a battery powered model, there is more flexibility in the places where I can use it.

My dream would be to get the $400 Milwaukee deep cut battery powered version

My wallet (and my wife's voice in my head) tell me NO!!! There is a Wen battery powered deep cut for $85, it would work, but for how long.

Finally there is the Dewalt version, which sits at $300ish. 

I know I am sidetracking this conversation, but I have been functioning without these tools so far, I think I should wait and save. I just can't imagine spending $400 on a tool like this. An anvil, no problem, but a bandsaw?

[Frosty]

Keep your eyes open for a used one in the paper, yard/garage/etc. sales, they're out there and what you're doing doesn't require a top end one. Be careful where the cord is when you cut and it's not a big deal.

I scanned the Milwaukee band saw site and was surprised to see Milwaukee invented the Band Saw in 1967! That might be stretching my ability to suspend disbelief even for porta band type saws. But Band saws in general? HAH! Even if they appended the claim with BC behind the date they'd be WAY off.

There are tool marks in many of the stones in the Pyramids that were obviously left by Band Saws. Sure, they weren't steel toothed blades, they were twine and abrasive grit saws but they were band saws. The tool marks also show evidence of humongous reciprocating abrasive saws. The kerf of those cuts suggest the blades were wooden boards and grit abrasives. They drilled holes in stone with bamboo or wooden dowels and grit. 

I don't recall but I THINK I've read about similar saws used much earlier in the Greek architecture and perhaps Minoan. 

About your original question. Do it YOUR way, it's your shop, if you're doing it for profit use the most productive tools. If you're doing it for personal aesthetics, do it that way. The only time I've been asked if I used "traditional" methods the person asking was nit picking and almost every time had no intent to buy. That's okay, I enjoyed taking their arguments about "traditional smithing" apart in public. 

In truth almost every significant improvement to iron working has been made by a blacksmith to be more productive, suffer fewer failures, cost less and be easier. Improve any one and the profit margin goes up. Maintaining quality is the only real requirement for improving the others being a real improvement. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

Why I call a powerhammer the "smart apprentice"---it does exactly what you ask it to.  If there's an issue, *you* caused it!

[Glenn]

2 hours ago, Will Brouwers said:

My dream would be to get the $400 Milwaukee deep cut battery powered version

Are you willing to put $1 into a kitty for each cut you make now, using other methods, and watch the saw fund grow?

If you buy it now, and are willing to pay just $1.00 per cut? Anything over 400 cuts and the saw is paid for and making profit. 

So you have to ask yourself, is making that cut in metal worth $1 to you ?

[BillyBones]

2 hours ago, Will Brouwers said:

Finally there is the Dewalt version,

That is the one i have. I even started a thread to get other opinions on which was better. Ended up that becuase i have DeWalt tools already and found that the batteries for the saw and them are interchangeable, i went with that one. But as far as quality, i have never really been disappointed in either the DeWalt nor Milwaukee brand. 

[Will Brouwers]

Billy,

I already have Milwaukee, however it is the M-12 system. So either way, I would be "starting over." It seems to me that right now, Dewalt is cheaper than Milwaukee. 

Thank you Glenn for the reminder!

And Frosty, thank you for the tip in looking other places online. I found TWO nice Milwaukee portable saws on Facebook marketplace. Time to start saving up I guess!

[Daswulf]

I was in the makita cordless world but Milwaukee sucked me in. The sheer range of tools and quality and battery life got me hooked. Tools for work drug me in but it turned into tools for home and the home shop as well. The chargers usually have ports for both the m12 and m18 batteries, and the rapid charge stations have me impressed. I'm no salesman for the company and get nothing for promoting them but I'm impressed. I can't talk down on dewalt. I just don't know how they are since I'm more dedicated to streamlining my cordless tools now.  I still have some makita tools I can't see buying again when they work great so I'm not fully switched to one. I'd definately be interested in a cordless bandsaw if/when I can afford it. 

[Anachronist58]

I was out on a fence job today, running my pawn shop Milwaukee portaband off my gen set.  My ex boss is going to try to keep me from using it tomorrow.  He seems to think it is too fancy to bring to the job.  This will be interesting...

Love my portaband. If you come across a Milwaukee with rotten tires, there are plenty of new ones (tires) online.  Be careful, new old stock will rot on the shelf.

Robert Taylor

 

Edited December 7, 2021 by Anachronist58
clarification

[anvil]

You said historical smith. Thats very different from traditional smith. A historical smith researches a particular point in time and a specific location. He then sets up as close as he can to emulate this moment in time. Think reenacting.

A traditional smith is one who is fascinated by the few techniques used by blacksmiths across time to create an incredible array of simple to complex projects. These techniques include upsetting, drawing out, cutting, holes( punched and slit and drift), forge welding, and two or three more. There is often a debate on the need and type of tools to accomplish these few and simple tasks. Tools used to do these tasks is better placed in the historical smith category.  So, to answer your tool question, it depends on what your goals are. I've always been fascinated by the incredible things that can be made using the simplest of tools basically a hammer, anvil, forge, post vice and assorted hand tools. Others have a passion for hydraulics etc, and all that can be done with that category of tooling. Personal preference in this day and age. And the work produced is as functional and beautiful as the smith chooses. He chooses this, his tools do not dictate this.

As far as an apprentice goes, well, lets look at that a bit. Pretty much whats been said is valid, but my conclusions are different. Lol, nothing new. No matter where a smith was, rural or city, help depended on work load and work done. If you are a lock maker, you dont need a striker. However, if labor is cheap, or you want to take in more work, might as well have an apprentice or two. Working in an anchor factory? Best have as many as you can get!  Generally the more rural, as has been said, the type of work could be done easily by one man, or woman. Wagon work, locks, horse shoeing, general repairs, on and on. When the community work load got too big, either another smith would set up a new business, or get an apprentice. And yes, a power hammer makes a great apprentice. Feed it a bit of electricity, oil liberally, and it will never complain, be sick, go on strike or ask for a raise. But you absolutely do not need an apprentice in this day and age, nor any age, to do most any kind of smithing you might want to do. So labor of any sort is just not a consideration.