Frosty

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Everything posted by Frosty

  1. I haven't talked about this little project in any depth though I've mentioned it to a few folks. After reading posts by folk here who have made and use ribbon burners I started looking into them a bit more. I like the idea of more even heat and quieter. What had me baffled is all the talk about needing a high pressure blower and looked more. I downloaded the ribbon burner plans Wayne has posted on his site and ran into the high pressure thing again. The only reason the device would actually NEED high pressure is if there weren't enough burner "nozzles" (nozzlettes?) A burner has to deliver the Fuel Air (FA) mix faster than the rate of propagation of the mix. To do so there only has to be enough pressure to overcome friction and restrictions in the system. too many nozzlettes though and the velocity falls below the flame front velocity and the system will back fire or burn back if you prefer. Okay, that's what I was thinking when I started tinkering with a Naturally Aspirated Ribbon Burner. (NARB? ) John's design was straight forward enough, a length of square tubing one side opened up, ends capped and a threaded intake port. (About the internal diffuser later) Then a mold to support an array of crayons to provide nozzlettes in the cast refractory. That is easy enough to understand so I gave it some thought, tweaked things a bit and started experimenting. A NA burner doesn't produce that much pressure, volume you betcha but not a lot of pressure so I needed to find out how many holes the ribbon block needed to let a T breath. Want to guess how many ribbon blocks I had to cast before getting it right? I should make that a contest, maybe Glenn would've donated a prize. Naw, I'm about to give it away so why bother. I started with my calculator, mic and did some figuring. To keep a NA burner breathing properly you need to increase the passage volume as the distance increases, the increase in cross sectional area decreases pressure in the stream to compensate for friction while increasing induction. Well, the basic plan has a piece of 2" sq. tubing 7" long and a thread protector welded to the center of the top side. Okay, there's a big increase in volume so no back pressure problem. I started with 10 nozzlettes about 2x the cross sectional area of the 3/4" tube on the T inducer. The diffuser in the steel plenum was just a piece of sheet steel bent in a flat V and welded across the inside of the plenum chamber to deflect the FA stream towards the ends. Put it together hooked up the gas and lit it off. No go, too much back pressure only got a sickly stream of fluttery yellow flames that looked like a demented candle. Doubling the flow path wasn't enough. The next test block had 36 nozzlettes and lit it up. No back pressure issues but the FA velocity was too low and it backfired in about 3-4 seconds. Well, I had it bracketed I knew what was too little and too much. The next test block had 24 nozzlettes and it performed pretty darned well but backfired in about 30 seconds. Close but no cigar. Next one had 21 nozzlettes and it ran close to a minute so I put it in a brick pile forge and it backfired in under 10 seconds. I could smell that brass ring now! Don't let the long yellow flames fool you this test block is burning nicely it's made of wood so . . . Yeah, I made all the ribbon test blocks from 2" x 4" cut to fit the plenum. The plenum end caps are 2 3/4" long and drilled so I could screw through to the test blocks. You didn't really think I was going to cast all the test blocks in refractory did you? There were 6 test blocks tuning into the 19 nozzlettes in 3 rows 6" long. I don't have any pictures of the tests after I rotated the T tube 90* so the T would lay horizontal rather than stand vertical. This lets me put the burner air intake behind the forge as far from the door as possible so it can't breath exhaust, an ongoing problem with all the vertical burners I've run. So, once I had my numbers and pattern I made the mold. It isn't nearly as nice as the one John made I used a 2" x 6" drilled for crayons and 2" x 2" for the sides. Sanded, painted in hard epoxy appliance paint. The release agent I used is spray Pledge. I made the final mod to the plenum, welding 1" of expanded steel to the long side to act like rebar in the refractory and make for a positive bond to the refractory. This pic is a final fitting of the T inducer before casting the block to check for clearances and other fiddly little things I was able to think might maybe could go wrong. Note the lack of a diffuser in the plenum, with or without one made zero difference in the flame size uniformity so I dropped it from the design. Then came the setting it to the old, two pieces of 3/4" angle iron tacked to the ends set it's depth in the mold, they'll come off when it goes in the forge. There's nothing of particular iterest to say about this part. Holes drilled, crayons set plenum height set, mold sprayed with Pledge and allowed to dry. I discovered an interesting thing mixing the Kast-O-Lite 30. I used the mold to measure the Kast-O-Lite beforehand and added about 25% more so as to have enough and not waste too much. I mixed it in two batches, the first batch was about 1/4" depth and I added about 25% Zircopax. This section is the flame face so I armored it up a little. Test coupons performed satisfactorily so this is the mod I made to the refractory in the mold. I then mixed the rest and discovered adding water reduced the volume significantly and had to mix a third batch to make up the difference. About then I was kicking myself heartily for not weighing the refractory. Here's a little tip I one of the guys at Bartells passed to me and I confirmed. When you mix this stuff add water VERY SLOWLY and kneed it like you were mashing peanut butter. It will seem VERY dry but when little pellets start to look wet you're about there. Mash it into a corner between the side and bottom of the container, then turn it out cut it up and mash it in again. It will begin to stick together and it's into the add water by the drop not drizzle. Suddenly it will start loosening up and will quickly become soft and pliable, work it more and it'll become liquid. It's weird stuff but be patient it'll become workable. Too much water and it'll flow like paint and it looses strength and it's thermal properties. This pic is of the vibrator I made to settle the refractory into the mold and the expanded sheet thoroughly. It's just a piece of 5/16" rd. with about 4" bent 90* at the end. With the drill turning at a moderate speed it vibrated every bubble out quickly and also quickly produced free moisture at the top of the mix and through a joint under one end of the mold. Darned stuff was still too wet and I had to spoon it into the mold and mash it in with a butter knife. It's weird stuff. Not a whole lot for pictures happened next, I put a magnetic engine heater on the plenum to keep the refractory in the 80f range and wrapped in it Kaowool to insulate it. Then I left it over night, and gave it a little quick scratch test to see how it was setting. Hard as a rock so I cracked the mold and gave a side under the mold a scratch. Ditto, HARD set. ow for the 100% humidity cure time a set of directions called for. It went into a coffee can with a little water and the magnetic engine heater stuck to the outside to keep it wet. I left it at 100% humid for a day and a half before trying to melt out the crayons. I don't k now what they're putting in crayons anymore but they don't melt easily at all After a couple days warm and wet I discovered I was out of propane! I was expecting a local fellow who wanted to give smithing a shot so I loaded up my 100lb. tank, got it filled ad had help dragging it into the shop and hooking up my new ribbon burner. I'd stacked up a brick pile forge with a chamber volume of about 365 cu/in and lit it up. The first pic is just after lighting it, you can just barely see the top of the T behind the plenum. It's running a little rich but not terribly. This is running at 2 PSIG. None of my T burners run at 2 PSIG. This is 10 PSIG. This last pic is 20PSIG. The forge was running into yellow heat in about 5 minutes and she's quiet, roars but quietly. And that ladies and gentlemen, is a Naturally Aspirated Ribbon Burner. Driven by an off the page Frosty T induction device. I am not displeased. Frosty The Lucky.
  2. Frosty

    First Forge Build Plans

    One change at a time! Then test to heat in the forge and take notes. Get them burning evenly before you start tuning. If they actually need further tuning after you do get them burning evenly I'd try trimming them less than 1/16", probably 1/32" at a time. They're darned close now and 1/8" is a major adjustment. Also make sure the jets are aligned with the tube when you reassemble them, they're easy to bump. I'm not surprised the back burner started stuttering, most of the exhaust is going out the back and is being taken in by the back burner. Frosty The Lucky.
  3. Frosty

    3D printed plastic burner experiments (photo heavy)

    It's really hard to sit here and watch someone else with the talent and tools doing so much really cool experimenting. This is all just so wicked cool. I'm thinking the thick cap with the rounded inside edge could be flat and thin instead. Have you taken note of how the smoke behaves near the cap? The aerospike structure didn't work and my intuition says it should have been beneficial. Now I'm wondering if anything in that area is a good thing. Frosty The Lucky.
  4. Frosty

    Burners 101

    Thanks for the pics and link! I just did a quick skim of the link. Yes, they burn natural gas. I'd say more but I need to do some reading. Very interesting burners though probably not on our radar. Frosty The Lucky.
  5. Frosty

    Got my Devil Forge 2 burner in 20 days early

    That would be perfect Lou, thank you. So long as they're not links to commercial sites Admin has no heartburn with links. I believe IFI has a section listing good video how to links. You'll be golden. I'd certainly put a layer of hard refractory on the inside of the blanket. It not only protects the kaowool. from temperatures above it's rating but more importantly mechanical damage. Kaowool at forging temperature is only slightly stronger than cotton candy almost any touch tears, gouges, etc. Ceramic blankets are also extremely susceptible to forge welding fluxes, it's like pouring hot water on cotton candy, dissolves it almost instantly. Frosty The Lucky.
  6. Frosty

    What did you do in the shop today?

    Take Slag's advice he actually KNOWS what he's talking about. Frosty The Lucky.
  7. Frosty

    First Forge Build Plans

    Yeah, that could be restricting the propane flow. Was there a reason you coiled the tubing? I stopped doing that a while back and just but a couple snaky bends in it as a cushion. I use a spring coil type tubing bender. Frosty The Lucky.
  8. Frosty

    Got my Devil Forge 2 burner in 20 days early

    Please no videos, most of the members here don't have broadband connections and have to pay for bandwidth. Stills are better information as we can zoom in on details and they don't jitter around and play annoying music. Frosty The Lucky.
  9. Frosty

    First Forge Build Plans

    Is that 1/2" measured from the shell? The front burner is putting out more volume or at a higher velocity forcing the exhaust mostly out the rear. Were I to guess from 3,500 miles away I'd say check the jet on the rear burner for a burr or obstruction. Provided the rest of the construction is the same. IF the jet in the front burner is trimmed back from the throat farther it could be burning harder/faster but I'd expect it to be leaner. Frosty The Lucky.
  10. Frosty

    First Forge Build Plans

    They look pretty good. Let them come to heat and burn a while to finish curing the refractory before you make any changes. How far into the liner are the burner nozzles? The one burning off the end has me wondering. Frosty The Lucky.
  11. Frosty

    3D printed plastic burner experiments (photo heavy)

    Remember the vortex isn't the goal, inducing air and mixing it with fuel is. The more FAM you can get in the forge per second the more heat. Assuming the correct fuel air ratio of course, that's #1. a MUST. A good vortex is undoubtedly an important factor for performance I just don't think it's the most important. I'll be surprised if a 4th. rib will improve anything. Been wrong before though, looking forward to it. Frosty The Lucky.
  12. Frosty

    Custom burner and forge having problems

    Please no videos, they don't really tell anybody very much. Good stills work better, you can pick a spot and zoom in on it and they don't jerk around nor play annoying music. More importantly for all the folk on the forum who don't have high speed but rely on dial up connections and pay by the minute stills convey the info for WAY less bandwidth. Frosty The Lucky.
  13. Frosty

    130# PW

    Once again patience prevails! Sad news for the former owner but it's better he pass it to someone who'll use it. Congrats Steve, the news puts a smile on my face. Frosty The Lucky.
  14. Frosty

    5 hp motor switch??

    Peppie: When you consider advice you read here or heck anywhere you have to consider the source. In this case, a LICENSED professional electrician, cut and paste pages from a book or someone living in a different country who doesn't know what voltages we run here. This much power isn't the place to bet your life on some guy on the internet. Better still hire someone licensed and bonded and have it done right. Frosty The Lucky.
  15. Thanks, I wasn't going to look it up but having the numbers at hand is a good thing. Frosty The Lucky.
  16. Frosty

    3D printed plastic burner experiments (photo heavy)

    If only punny wordsmithing paid better. <sigh> 2.7.11 fins are too short in my eyeball gaugementer, it can't draw enough air. I like the flame vortex provided you can get enough FAM per second burning to make good heat. It puts paid to impingement in the forge chamber, work even. A strong vortex is how high temp chemical erosion is controlled in oil boilers. The flame doesn't touch the refractory, only the boiler tubes. Of course there's such a thing as too much. . . Anything. Worse you're not talking about the other control method. Larger jet lower psi. will control excessive velocity and put more FAM per second in the fire. Hmmmm? Another thought is becoming evident to me here. The more you try to control the vortex the less it behaves as we wish. The (Aerospike) type intake cone is a bust though a version MIGHT make a good jet mod. The more severe the air foils become the worse the performance. I think you're down to minor most here. Remember the intake air WANTS in fact MUST form a vortex. Trying to force it causes turbulence as seen. Yes? I'm thinking minor changes to the inside of the existing fins on 2.7.2, 2.7.3 is almost reversed for an air foil. Increasing either the leading or trailing edge almost to trim tab or even flaps profiles just looks wrong. I'd be looking at low aspect wing profiles. The bottom surface maybe almost flat and the upper surface only exaggerating the line of the cord from leading to trailing edge. The slant you're putting on the fins looks like a delta wing. Reversing it did exactly what reversing the sweep or camber does for combat aircraft, made it more unstable. Controlled instability is what makes combat aircraft maneuverable. A burner needs a smooth FAM stream. Yes? https://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images?p=wing+profiles&amp;fr=crmas&amp;imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.koryoswrites.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F01%2F1022px-Wing_profile_nomenclature.svg_.png#id=0&amp;iurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.koryoswrites.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F01%2F1022px-Wing_profile_nomenclature.svg_.png&amp;action=close Frosty The Lucky.
  17. Frosty

    First solo Tamahagane smelt

    Hook line and sinker & reel it in were used early on. Chums, <sigh>.
  18. That looks a little better. Still a Bit rich but getting closer. Forget about FAM ratio a minute and take a look at the flames and think about what you see. Get back with your observations. I'm thinking your plenum is maybe small and back pressure is causing back fire issues. It shouldn't require that much psi to operate. Don't get stuck on psi. readings, it isn't the issue but it is a symptom. Morse tapers come in different ratios. Interesting idea, thanks. Frosty The Lucky.
  19. Frosty

    Drill bit lubricant

    I really need some mental floss and I slammed my mind's eyes shut as fast as I could! I worked in a rubber plant for a while and we worked with our hands in low yield hydrocarbon solvents all day. Mostly Toluol and acetone, the MEK was mostly for cleaning tools and hands. Occasionally I had to get out the xylene to work with phenolic or epoxy resins. Frosty The Lucky.
  20. Frosty

    Frosty "multi port" forge build

    While I think you're putting way more work into your forge than necessary for equal results it should work okay. When you're describing the IFB you sound like a salesman, we can search KT Refractories and see what we need. Looks like a heck of a company. Frosty The Lucky.
  21. Frosty

    Frosty "multi port" forge build

    What kind of IFB (Insulating Fire Brick) are you using? The typical old IFB is rated to 2,200f. and reacts to hot flux like a sugar cube in hot water. Morgan K 26 IFB, as far as I've heard, don't care diddly about flux, typical forge temps or fast thermal cycling. Refraction rate? I think you're mixing up your terms but if not, please clarify for us. I don't understand how you're putting this stuff together. Putting Kaowool AND IFB together in a forge is an odd use, I don't know of anybody else doing it. Nor do I know what kind of IFB you're using, full brick is usually 2.25" x 4.5" x 9". Split brick is 1.125" thick. Fireplace mortar? If your forge is indeed 2" of Kaowool INSIDE? 4.5" of IFB then it's small wonder it gets plenty hot, that's a LOT of overkill. Short lived though. Frosty The Lucky.
  22. Frosty

    3D printed plastic burner experiments (photo heavy)

    Mike has his own spin on things. I try to keep friction low you know, don't want anybody to get burned. Frosty The Lucky.
  23. One of your problems is you're trying to get burners to operate at A psi reading. The only real use for psi gages is so you can duplicate a temperature without having to eyeball it every time. The ONLY issue that's worthwhile to correct is the flame's chemistry. NEUTRAL. There is only ONE right psi. the psi it operates at properly. Period. I really like your multiple outlet burner it's a nice build. But in the pic you post it's burning rich you have the air intake maybe 75% choked off with your thumb. For now, ignore everything but how that flame looks in the picture and repeat after me. THAT'S burning TOO RICH. Rich means not enough air for the amount of fuel. The solution for that problem is either, more air OR less fuel. Changing psi changes fuel AND air at the same rate. it can NOT effectively alter the fuel air ratio. Frosty The Lucky.
  24. Frosty

    newbe question

    Nah, you got it Robert, he's more in the talk talk talk stage than doing. I'm waiting to see some progress too, maybe even SOMETHING he's hit with a hammer. Frosty The Lucky.
  25. I'll accept your statements about rebar, at least for use in certain types of structures: bridges, buildings, etc. are specced higher grades. I'll even ease off on the inconsistency I've experienced in the past. If I'm wrong I'm wrong I'll admit it. Frosty The Lucky.