Glenn Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 IForgeIron demographics for working blacksmiths is from 6 years old to 80 and 90 years old. We encourage anyone interested to visit the site, including women and children. Today's society is reflected on IForgeIron. Some use a search engine, some research their topic of interest, and others just ask questions, the same questions that have been ask time after time. We should encourage everyone because we never know where our next MASTER will get their start. I would hope it would be from IForgeIron, and be someone we encouraged. We have tried to organize the subject matter into sections, anvils in the anvils section etc. The sticky or pinned items are at the top of the page, but we can not force people to read this important information. If they did read it, many of their questions would have been answered. There is no reason to delete repeat questions, or to try to organize them in some fashion with the answer, This is already done with the sticky or pinned posts at the top of the page. It would seem people have a difficult time starting at the top of the page. The best way to learn is to surround yourself with the very best and most knowledgeable people in the subject. When you prove your willing to learn, the knowledge will become available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anachronist58 Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 While ill-equipped to speak to the preceding controversy, I will say, Timothy Miller, that I agree with your observation that it becomes very tedious to sort through the proliferating clutter that tends to overwhelm the "meat-and-potatoes" that many of us hunger for. Niel Blythin, I was headed in your direction in that I suggest that the task of INDEXING and CULLING would be extremely labor intensive: Once subjects begin to branch out into multiple sub-sets, the nightmare begins. And yes, Glenn, you can pin stuff to the top, and that may be the best one can do with such a large volume of posts/data. Robert Taylor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 May I suggest : What you get out of IForgeIron depends on what you put into it. If you want to see "meat and potatoes" on the site, then throw a bit of meat or a couple of taters in with your next post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkie Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 I think the biggest problem with "trolls", newbies and others asking questions that have been discussed MANY times over and over is simply.... LAZINESS!!!!! My take on it is that many of the offenders are too lazy to take the time to SEARCH this wonderful repository of information. Sure, it may take a few minutes, hours or even days to find the information they are asking for, but they need to consider how much time has gone into posting that information from the participants in the forum. I can guarantee that the time involved in accumulating that information is much greater than their search time. As an example, I felt bad about asking the age of my newly acquired Hay-Budden anvil from members who had paid hard earned $$ to buy the book, so I searched all the posts I could find relating to the subject and eventually "bracketed" the probable date for my serial number. Simple. Just search and ye shall find..... :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaughnT Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 You nailed it, Arkie. All my long-winded diatribes boil down rather concisely, it seems! I have to admit that I get a kick out of the "date my anvil" threads, but only because it's such a meaningless thing to me. I have no idea why folks feel such a need to know that, and I've never worried one minute about the age of my undated anvils. Heck, they probably couldn't even be dated except to say that they're post-1820 because they have the pritchel hole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Ivan Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 I am gonna play devils advocate here for a second and say that with all the redundant questions, when I search for answers on this forum, they tend to help me find multiple solutions to my questions (different smiths answering the same question get loads of answers). Everything gets archived here and that is great. Though I do completely understand the frustration with seeing the same questions over and over (I try to check this page every day for new content). It does show a serious lack of diligence prior to asking questions but on the flip side, the redundancy does tend to serve me well when I go searching. So as I don't quite get why people wont search before asking (other then sheer laziness) it has helped me in getting multitudes of good answers when I search. That being said, and seeing the company mainly posting on this specific thread, I for one learn from and greatly appreciate honest opinion and critique and I welcome all (good or bad) on anything I post from any one of you. No whining comes from me if you have criticism on my posts (other then grammer haha). The only way WE can advance is with honest critique! -Crazy Ivan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Furrer Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 I have seen similar minded folks as apprentice ironworkers some years ago. (mind the metphors to follow) I was a connector and some 1st year apprentices come on the job (1st day ever with a spud wrench in their hands) saying they "only work the high steel" I keep the laugh to myself and nudge the raising gang forman (the reality slap soon follows). Long story short, I have seen many 1st year apprentices get up on the high steel and freeze...cannot even step back to get off it. I even had to signal the crane operator once to pick one kid off the iron by his harness to put him down on the decking below so he could start moving around again and relax (we called him sea-level after that because he needed to remain at sealevel to function). I'm only worried when I'm 2 foot to 50 foot off the ground...beyond that there is no need to worry about the pain of surviving a fall. We all had questions when we start new things. Some of the questions can be answered by ourselves as well practice and explore..this is what I see as missing most of the time. The inability or unwillingness to try and fail and try again. As one who makes swords I get the "How do you" question a few times a week. Some show pictures of attempts and they get help..those who have done no research and intend to do no research do not get that much help. For the past three years I have been researching Chinese swords....its an uphill battle there I tell you. I've traveled a bit to have sit downs with experts in the field (all three of them) and documented a few dozen good swords and have every book on the subject that is out in China, US and Europe....which amounts to seven. Along with that comes the time in the shop working through the parts that need testing. I think it comes with the job...you are either in with both feet and a keen mind or you should look for other work. I see less and less of this as I look around....very little new core research. Ric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan C Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Would it be possible to have a sort of probationary period for newbies with the explanation that before you are able to post a question we'd like for you to take the time to review the site and search what's already out there? Otherwise I think you're up against human nature to look for quick, easy answers by excited new members who haven't yet learned how to use the site and are bound to ask repetitive questions. Then unfortunately when they do (especially if they ask about swords) it's like they stepped in a minefield. Other smithing sites that aren't interactive don't have this problem because you're forced to dig thru the material already there to find an answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry W. Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 I have really enjoyed the site over the years. It has helped me with questions that I have had and I hope that I have been able to help others as well. If this thread is an indication of the way things should be or will be, there would come a time when there would be very few new posts as the information will be available in an older thread. I feel that this would not only be bad for those up-and-coming but, those that have been here for awhile as well. We can pick and choose the threads that we choose to follow and we can choose to ignore them as well. One of the most important things that we can do for the perpetuation of the craft is to encourage and educate. I feel like this site has done a very good job of this and hope that it will continue. Thanks to all that have made this happen, Jerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete46 Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Teachers answer the same old questions every year. Janitors empty the same old trash every day. If you want to help then help if not move on to the next post. I love This site, warts and all! p.s. I've heard it said " whining promotes Satan's success , While being positive glorifies God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Coke Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Greetings all, Lots of input here..... As seasoned blacksmiths we all have been subjected to a lot of stupid question that we all just seem to brush off and give a short answer.. I thing there is a simple answer ... Referral .. If what you deem a entry level or extra simple question or request is posted just refer the poster to the proper section of this forum and add if further information is needed after you research I will be glad to help you... I think a lot of newbies just are not well versed on how the sight works.. Plus some are just lazy and are just looking for a fast answer.. We all want to help but just remember how hard it was for us in earlier years to find information.. Not a book or picture to be had let alone a mentor.. Its a new world of instant info and right now answers.. Just an old boys 2c Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Yates Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Amen Jim ,Glenn and a few others . folks just want the answer "NOW" and lack the drive to research the site for their answers and the thing is the subject has been covered in depth and "how to do it" so many times folks do get perturbed about the same old questions being asked . I personally would rather see some one ask where can I find ( whatever information ) in a form of question seeking the information then a page of this is what I have done and it is not working . and for the record "NO Rebar is NOT any good for Knives EVER) yet folks still ask the same old question about do to the lack of research . it is Pure 100% being LAZINESS to search the site . I do not mind helping anyone that is willing to help themselves . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkie Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 You nailed it, Arkie. All my long-winded diatribes boil down rather concisely, it seems! I have to admit that I get a kick out of the "date my anvil" threads, but only because it's such a meaningless thing to me. I have no idea why folks feel such a need to know that, and I've never worried one minute about the age of my undated anvils. Heck, they probably couldn't even be dated except to say that they're post-1820 because they have the pritchel hole. You know, probably one of the greatest advantages of doing an in-depth search for information is that in the course of a search so many other interesting topics pop up and give one an even greater insight into blacksmithing and related topics. I sometimes end up going off in a tangent on something interesting I ran across and forget to follow up on my original search!!!! :wacko: As for anvil dates...I guess it's sorta like antiques...curiosity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakesshop Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 I'm one of those who have no problem looking up dates for peoples anvils. Give me a chance to open up Postman's book and end up on a bit of a tangent sometimes after finding the info. On the subject of newbie questions, yes it probably has been answered before, but sometimes you get a fresh perspective on an old topic when answered by someone else. As far as the old adage that there is never a stupid question has never had to train kids right out of high school to be firefighters, this would also apply to rookie smiths I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted January 28, 2014 Author Share Posted January 28, 2014 Actually my issue that pushed me to create this thread is not about the new folks that ask the same question that may have been asked and answered well in the last hour,,,and many times over the year . A troll to me is one that will enter a site such as this,,,,read a bit to ask a question that is sure to provoke at least a small amount of controversy then sit back and giggle..or wotever it is that they do. They are not asking this due to laziness or ignorence...Why they do I cannot guess.. However this thread has been a good read..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yahoo2 Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 In my world, trolling results in delicately smoked fresh snook for the evening meal. There's not much better than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yves Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 I have done research all my adult life. I enjoy the research, the looking for, the journey that brings me to a bit of knowledge, whatever that would be. I enjoy it probably because I know how to do it and also know that you find more than what you are looking for when you do that. To me blacksmithing is not only in hammering hot steel. It is also in the building of some knowledge. Researching here and making notes is part of that like my reading my books on period kitchen implements. Not every one enjoys researching a subject like I do. That's allright. Some are lazy. That's OK. Some are in a hurry. I understand that. Do the lazy make me impatient? Sometimes yes, sometimes not. When I feel impatient, I go to another thread. When I do not feel impatient, I read the thread. And when I feel realy good, I might offer an answer if I have one. I do not believe that any amount of organisation of this site will change people. Some like researching and do it, some do not, some know how, some do not. Would rules change anything? Nah! Rules might bring some to researching, but what would it do for those who do not know how, have no interest in doing that and for those who are in a hurry? Turn them away? We do not want to turn away a member. IFI is there, people use it as they can. But always, they are interested. Let those who are not impatient with the 100th version of the same question add to the hundreds of answers to that question or point to where the answers are given. Let the others like me, most of the time, get impatient, swear maybe against the lazy and just go to another thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everything Mac Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 EDIT: Sorry guys - I stumbled across this thread whilst looking for something else. I posted without checking the dates. Apologies to drag up an old zombie thread. :unsure: I agree with Yves, I don't believe any amount of reorganisation of the site will change the way people post. It will only make more work for the Mods, who I must say run one of the best forums I am a member of. Moderation of other forums is often not as smooth as it is here. I set up a Facebook group for smiths to trade their unwanted equipment and I have found that over moderation is a total headache - most people simply do not read the rules when they join - will post wildly and without hesitation and then get rather angry and indeed hostile when you politely suggest they do so. The subject of new members and the subsequent reoccurring threads is not an issue specific to this forum. Over on the airsoft forums we get identical threads posted on a daily basis let alone weekly. While I agree this is very annoying for the seasoned members is it really the end of the world? After all we are each in control of the computer on which we are surfing and it is ultimately you and you alone are responsible for the threads that you open and read through. Taking the time to reply or ignore it is a personal choice. I heard a proverb when I was considerably younger - "He who asks is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask, remains a fool forever." - perhaps not something that every new member is considering when they post "stupid" questions but I'd sooner see people asking the questions than keeping quiet and not developing. The world of blacksmithing is growing, here in the UK we've just aired a programme showing some smiths in training so I don't doubt we will see another surge of new people looking to get into the craft. (Besides pushing up the price of kit this can only be a good thing) It says a great deal about the men and women on here who are willing to take the time to type a well thought out reply to the stupid questions and I for one am eternally grateful to a number of the big names on here for their time and patience. With regards to those people who look to start arguments, post deliberately abusive comments... Well there are always xxxxxxxx in life. All the best Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natkova Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 Some guys just can't "get on foot" and start asking questions all time. So by being newbie they become noobs. Reason for all of this is failiure and they lost courage (been there don that.) i learned that no mater off fact how much i failed to make good forge and durable i push it too far to that metter i put steel in house wood stove to se how much time it need to get yelow colour. I get suprised that you need 2-3 minute to get yellow glowing color. IF i had somekind anvil in room i would use it but that is just got too far away with my curiosity. I want to say that some folks get all time failiure that's why they ask questions more and more, geting frustrated with failiure they bring somekind bad energy to others . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 Do not confuse trolls with general new people. Many new people ask a lot of questions, that is normal and acceptable. But they are not the same animal as a troll. Many new people are fine just gathering information on their own, others ask questions to fill in gaps or to clear up rumors and stories they have heard, then some are just to lazy to read for themselves and perfer to ask about every little thing, I admit I get short with some of them when we get a rash of them. but it is still ok for them to post and ask. A troll posts to cause trouble. Their life is so empty that seems to be the only way they can get noticed. We have had a few here, they are not rare, they infest many places, oddly they do not always see themselves as trolls, so after repeated warnings they usually get the boot and fine a new place to infest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horse Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 I know that this is an old thread, but I found it interesting to read. I am a Newbie here on the site. I have been soaking up what I can for quite some time and have contributed less than a handful of posts. I think that there are some of us that try to find a way to post something, anything so that we can feel a part of this community. I have read through enough posts to feel like I know some of the regulars on here and now know something of their personality etc. I assume there are a lot of friendships that have evolved here with folks that have never met. I think it is great. I know that one of my first posts was an attempt to be funny, gotta say it didn't translate well as no one knows anything about me.. Lesson learned. Long story short, I believe that there are some folks that may come across as ignorant or even trolls that are really just trying to "join the party" so to speak. I hope to be a non offending newbie with a worthwhile thought or question from time to time. Thanks guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 Trolls are those that insist upon creating drama and ot causing problems. Ever watch a demo when the troll knows more than the blacksmith? When the blacksmith hands the troll the hammer and says show me, it is game over. Drop a hammer on the anvil and you know which end of the metal is hot. We are blacksmiths, no drama needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natkova Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Trolls are those that insist upon creating drama and ot causing problems. Ever watch a demo when the troll knows more than the blacksmith? When the blacksmith hands the troll the hammer and says show me, it is game over. Drop a hammer on the anvil and you know which end of the metal is hot. We are blacksmiths, no drama needed. Are same trolls and smartguys i wont say xxxxxxxxxx : Or xxxxxxxx. Ask for advice do something different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Nat: Part of our problem can just be language, the translator you're using is leaving a lot we have to figure out. The longer we read you're posts the better we'll get. then there's the other kind of language, IFI has some pretty solid rules about bad language, foul, swearing, name calling etc. When you start seeing lines of X-X-Xs instead of the word you typed you've hit the rule and been edited. Some folk are just annoying but still not trolls, they're just annoying, teenagers often fall into that category. Basically decent people, just a little green so listening to them is like biting into a green apple. We all engage in a little troll behavior now and then. Sometimes we're just feeling crabby or maybe something just gets our goat. (go ahead, make jokes guys) When we do act trollish folk tend to just ignore us or once in a while a good guy will PM and say what's eating you or stop that or whatever. Normal folk will get the message and start behaving again. A troll unfortunately can't, they have problems that demand they get attention and the only way they know how is to disrupt things. Think of it like the person at a party that has to shout all the time. No reason for shouting except nobody will pay attention to them if they don't. The best way to deal with trolls is don't feed them. Paying attention to trolls is what the need, it's food for their problems. Don't reply, respond or otherwise pay attention and they'll go away. Most trolls need to disrupt things because they don't have anything positive to contribute so talking to them isn't going to do anyone any good. It's sad but it's a fact of life. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natkova Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 They wanted to be in centre of world right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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