Trolls?

[Rich Hale]

Every now and then someone posses a question in the forums,,starting off with,,i am new to all this,,,,don't have any tools or patience and then asks for technical assistance with an advanced shop project.  Most times that is answered soon by someone that could be of help..until the person says they are being picked on or bullied or any number of issues. Most of the time it sorts itself out pretty soon. Most of the time they will not answer any questions they are presented with. 

 

If they are just doing this as a prank call kind of thing..I hope it is as much fun as they thought it would be. 

 

Guess I just wanted to vent a bit...If they are trolls. I can perhaps give them gps coordinates for a nice bridge ti reside under. 

[David Einhorn]

I have talked to people about this issue and one teacher expressed the observation that young folks too often have not learned the patience to research and learn about subjects.  I was told that often students expect *all* the information about a project to be in one place and be easily understood and followed.  Towards that end, for each project in a book, I was told, the author would need to start at the absolute beginning of the skills needed and then proceed with a step-by-step set of instructions to complete the project..... If such a youth was to flip open to the center of the book and not find a *complete* set of instructions, they would likely complain that the information to complete the project was not provided, because such individuals would not look elsewhere in the book for the introductory information. 

 

So yes I believe that we are likely to see more inquires about information from people that don't want to research, and only want a simple to follow complete set of instructions from introduction to tools through step-by-step instructions for each project... for each and every project.  And we can expect anger when they are not provided absolutely complete instructions from beginning to end on a complicated project such as making a sword.

 

Its a New World, and at least around here, apparently a dumbed-down world.

[ThomasPowers]

I try to remember that I am often not writing for the benefit of the original poster but for eveyone else out there who will read what I write.  I have noticed that people are often very deficient in thinking out their questions which is why I often try to give an analogy that they might feel comfortable with, eg:  What would you need to know to be able to give a price on a used car?

[Stephen Olivo]

I have seen that attitude in some of the people younger than I am. I remember having to search for things really hard to find them for school. Before Google and search engines gave us more of a instant gratification society. i find myself passing over more threads that ask for the simple answers and only posting links on some threads leaving them to find the relevant information.

[Anachronist58]

Blacksmithing, like any other skill, is of course only an App.  You get the App, you click on it, and everything else is accomplished for you  (Certainly I imagine many hundreds of swords have been forged whilst playing World of Warcraft).

 

A young "machinist" a while back emphatically stated to me that "Aerospace Machining is an Art, not a Science:  If it were a Science, then Anyone could do it."

 

I always had to keep certain extra duplicate tools on hand for his shift. :(

 

one of my Managers once declared that "Tool and Cutter Grinding is a 'Black Art', passed down from generation to generation".

 

My point is only that I completely agree with you gentlemen above, and the saddest thing is:  Those who manage our Education System DO NOT, as evidenced by the systematic elimination of our Vocational Programs, and as personally attested to by at least one venerable member of this forum.

 

Sort of odd, Rich Hale, that at my former job, I was known as the Troll.  If you came to my department ('Crossed the Bridge') with a request, you had to to have your questions better prepared than "I need a cutter, not too big, not too small", Rumor had it I was a Goat Gobbling Mean Old Man.  Not True.  I simply had a job to do and a backlog. I can't help that my face looks harder than an Iron stove.

 

As for the way people start new threads on this Forum, I would love to start my own thread, but:

 

#1, I'm too busy looking up what others have already gone to the trouble to lay down, as is proper for an utter amateur such as I.

 

#2, I have several things I am working on, and I am Dying to share them, but they are not finished. Hence, they are neither real, nor earned. 

 

I have to say though, Rich, in these days, when a dime won't buy you a nickle('s worth of metal),  If anyone has the ability to sway young neotrolls back onto the right path, It is this community of Craftsmen/Artists/Educators/Grownups/Administrators who keep a firm yet mostly gentle rein on the goings-on-around-here. 

 

I bow to All

 

Robert Taylor

 

 

 

 

 

[Stephen Olivo]

thanks anachronist that was an enjoyable read :D

[L Smith]

When I worked in aviation the new guys were given to me to sort out on who stayed or were pushed out. The first obligation was to check out their tools. Those with a giant pair of channel locks, a large hammer, and a foot long screwdriver didn't get very far! It was a surprise to me to see big tool boxes with only one drawer used. My box was their other tool set. It got old because my tools were vintage and not made anymore.

 

  Most of the "I wanna make a sword" crowd don't have anything but Dad's old claw hammer.

  What I would rather read is I want to make a flower or a ladle.

 

I guess the answer is to pound forward thru the dust and smoke.

[Crazy Ivan]

I have seen similar minded folks as apprentice ironworkers some years ago. (mind the metphors to follow) I was a connector and some 1st year apprentices come on the job (1st day ever with a spud wrench in their hands) saying they "only work the high steel" I keep the laugh to myself and nudge the raising gang forman (the reality slap soon follows). Long story short, I have seen many 1st year apprentices get up on the high steel and freeze...cannot even step back to get off it. I even had to signal the crane operator once to pick one kid off the iron by his harness to put him down on the decking below so he could start moving around again and relax (we called him sea-level after that because he needed to remain at sealevel to function). Two years later that very same kid was running the iron like he was born up there. The point to the story being that you need to learn to walk before you can run...(sometimes they need to learn to crawl before they even try to walk). That is something that seems long forgotten these days. Baby steps get the goods in time. My 2cents.
-Crazy Ivan


Oh, and on the point of metaphors....I do not in any way consider myself a "connector" as reference to my level of smithing (for anyone who knows about structural ironworking). I was just using the story as a reference point of similar circumstance. :)
-Crazy Ivan

[Steve Sells]

 IBEW here Ivan.  and  I understand. I do not like high steel, and real high steel I avoid like plague, I offer to drag up :)   All  you beamers scare me.

 

On the topic at hand, lucky for us many of the trolls were banned last summer, and a few were causing problems at other sites as well.  A few posted they supported the trolls and offered to help them with legal fee's against IFI,  they got banned too.   Its called house cleaning. 

 

Feel free to use the Report tag at the bottom of every post for problems.  That sends a memo to staff, so we can address issues before they get bad.  Even double posts, spam, or trolls,  let us know so we can fix it.

[Frosty]

When I brought up the term Troll I was referring to folk who thrive on dispute and bad feelings. You  know the type, the ones who think making other folk look bad makes them look good. One type likes to be surrounded by angry, unhappy people.TROLLS.

 

I don't usually pigeon hole newcomer kids TROLL, unless they earn it, they're mostly products of the environment. Schools and their parents have given them everything, all they have to do is ask. Actually working for what you want is NOT the current attitude. Look around, expecting folk to get a job is just mean, they DESERVE a high standard of living because everybody is supposed to be equal.

 

Of course there are the new guys, one we had was going to show everybody what a GOOD (whatever) was like. It wasn't long before he was soundly hated with crew morale in the pits. He actually lasted two years before changing jobs where he was equally loved. TROLL. He wasn't the norm however, guys like "Sea level" were more common by far. It was our job as old hands to keep them from killing themselves or doing irreparable damage and they usually ended up good or at least competent hands. I think most of us have been there to some degree, over confidence isn't really a sin, just part of the learning curve

 

I'm more likely to cut the kids some slack. Trolls on the other had I try to ignore if I can. I cop to not being able to stay disengaged from TROLLS like I should and end up feeding them till my brain engages in reality. (stupid tree!)

 

Anyway, that's my read on it, kids are kids, know everything and dumb as stumps, just like I was. Trolls are just sad SAD individuals who have to have as many unhappy people and sycophants around them as possible. Don't feed the Trolls is my aim and advice, if they can't get what they so desperately need they go hunting elsewhere.

 

The Admin guys do a pretty darned good job of filtering TROLLS when they see them so let them know. Good guys.

 

Frosty The Lucky

[Steve Sells]

For the record I also seperate real trolls from the new people.  New are just that, they want to fit in, hate being left out, try too hard in some areas, not enough is others, we have all been there.  I do not include them in the troll catagory. Like Frosty just said:  true trolls are practiced at spreading misery,  those types of people are not new to it at all.

[VaughnT]

The older I get, the less tolerance I have for such folks.  Trolls, or idiots, or whatever you want to call them, are rude beyond measure, in my opinion.  What's worse, though, is kindly folks stepping in to answer their questions.  That's akin to feeding the wild bears.

 

How many times do we need to answer the same question asked by thousands of "new guys" because they refused to use the search function?  Why do we refuse to call them out for their obvious arrogance?  Are we making them better/stronger/faster by not admonishing them for not using the search bar?

 

Worse than that, though, is the false platitudes lavished on people that post their "first" whatever.   A recent bottle-opener posts got what I consider the single best response I've seen on IFI, but I note that the 'reviewer' went to great lengths to qualify his statement so as to make sure that nobody got xxxx hurt.

 

On another forum, a young "smith" posted a picture of a knife he'd just finished.  He'd posted several other knives he'd completed in other threads, and they showed a marked lack of finish.  I called him out on it by simply asking a few pointed questions, namely how many similarly bent blades had he seen other smiths post pictures of, and why did he continue to build the knife even though he knew that the blade had bent in the quench?  When did that become acceptable?  What he was/is doing is using his age as an excuse for shoddy work and knowing that all the nice guys on the forum will give him accolades because he's young.  And, he's right.  While I didn't cuss him out like my grandad would have, I was the only person to outright criticize his work.

[Steve Sells]

Why do people fear telling the truth about the bent and pitted blades and lop sided tripods and such? I wont link to any of them, but there have been entire threads started complaining about those that have called someone out.   A few of the posters said the offender shoud be banned for being mean, and a few used words that had to be edited out for language violations. People got down right upset about it.

 

Some people do not want the truth so they can improve, they mearly want a pat on the back, like they got in grade school.

[basher]

I think there is a real issue going on here.

 

 It is an intolerance of new and therefor obviously ignorant people who ask genuine questions.

 this is an internet site.......

 

 No one has to earn or deserve any of the wonderful information that is here, it is for EVERYBODY. (am I rite in thinking this)

 

 The same old same old will come up again and again and again (ad infinitum), it is the nature of the beast.

 

 The attitude shown here by certain people towards this is to my mind  very confusing , and incredibly detrimental to this wonderful site.

 

Why embrace being a curmudgeon?

 

 As a potentially first port entry place for people to the world of smithing and bladesmithing should there not be a genuine welcome? 

 

 I am getting the feeling that there are a couple of member here who need to either rain on everybody's parade or be praised constantly for their input for the site.

 

 So for the record ...well done.......its great that you have put information on the internet .

 

Now let people get on with reading it ....or not..... and quit winging about it.

 

If the nay sayers were a little slower to nay say, there are lots of people here who love to just real out the same old good info ,again and again...

 

it would make for a much more pleasant environment .

 

 It is the nature of the beast.

[VaughnT]

Owen, I think you're looking at it a bit wrong.  Nobody's saying that new guys shouldn't be welcomed, and we welcome them every day in that "introduce yourself" section.  We've all proven more than willing to help out, sharing tips and tricks, motivating people to improve themselves and their abilities.

 

Intolerance doesn't factor into the equation unless it's showing intolerance towards those that offer honest inquiries and criticisms, insisting that everyone tiptoe around in fear of hurting someone's feelings.

 

What you seem to be implying is that new folks to the craft and forum have zero responsibility for researching answers to their questions.  We're the bad guys because we get frustrated with the lack of basic research they display, but they're forgiven for not getting that research because they're "new". 

 

Kids today are not nearly as computer-illiterate as you and I might be, so they can't say they don't understand how to use the search function on a website.  You want to know about basic blacksmithing, enter "basic blacksmithing" into the search bar on your computer and then spend a few months reading all the articles and watching all the videos.  It's not rocket science as proven by the fact that I could figure it out.  Take some notes, compile your bits-n-bobs to make a basic forge and get to it.  If you're having a problem with something, come to the forum and do some searching for that particular oddity.  If you can't find the info, or understand it because of a lack of exposure, sure...  ask for some help.  But to simply pop in and your first posts is to ask how the same question that's literally two threads below yours?  That's not a little troubling?

 

What we are asking is whether or not this behavior is indicative of a larger problem, be that intentional trolling of the site, or something in society as a whole.  Second to that is, in my opinion, are we doing these new people any good by holding their hands and walking them through the whole thing instead of insisting that they do their homework.

Sounds gruff, I know, but how many threads are there in the anvil section with new people looking for anvils?  My first time ever using ebay was last year, and the first thing I ever bought was a 350# Fisher anvil.  Again, I'm not a computer person, but I was able to find an anvil in my price range in less than an hour by browsing online sites - and I had found several others simply by asking around town.  Yet, we get thread after thread after thread asking the same thing.... and that's perfectly okay?  My take on it...... if you're not smart enough to find an anvil, you're not smart enough to be playing with fire.

 

You're right that it's the internet and you'll never be able to change the majority of folks.  Kinda makes me sad, though I do appreciate you offering a critique and not once qualifying anything you said with an apology for possibly hurting anyone's feelings.

[ThomasPowers]

Why do people think they should post their learning steps on the net---unless they want folks to help them improve.  I generally want to learn from folks who have got a process or method nailed down *hard*.  I don't see the utility of "this is how you do it wrong---but I don't know that it's wrong" posts.

 

There is an ongoing meta discussion on the net being the death of expertise as the entrance cost of posting garbage is so much lower than when a printer had to risk big money putting out a book.

 

While I embrace my inner curmudgeoness I also try to get people to post necessary information to get decent replies and often cite sources for them to dig stuff out on their own---lots of times stuff I ran into hunting for a specific question has ended up more important to me in the long term that the single issue I was tracking down-- -like finding other books in the Library because thay are near the one I was hunting for!

 

 

Some cultures and many people in general do not understand the concept of the sarcasm of using a title such as Sir Curmudgeon.

[L Smith]

My take on this is they never realize a lot of us found anvils,forges, vices, and assorted tools without internet. Then came trial and failure and the road search for someone capable to explain where we went wrong and how to accomplish the task correctly. The long ride home gave us time to rehash the conversation. The internet approach costs nothing; the road search meant you were willing to pay for an answer.

[doc]

I feel the same as Basher.

 

I think there is a real issue going on here.

 

I have to agree that there are periodically some real TROLLS that can't help but come on here and cause problems. Like some of those who were removed last year as Steve has mentioned. But whenever the subject of this thread comes up it seems to quickly deteriorate into blaming people for just being people.  The reality of it is the internet gives everyone a soapbox regardless of knowledge or experience. Some members of this board think their knowledge is of some greater value than that of others it maybe or it may not but only the receiver of that knowledge is the judge and it seems like most of the complaints come from people who don't like the way their purported knowledge is received. The worst part is it seems to inevitably become a generational thing and the young newbie takes the the brunt of the criticism. It's not generational it's human nature and we ALL are guilty of not listening at certain times.

 

I hear constantly in these threads how the OP is wasting someones time! Did someone force you to answer the OP's question? Did the OP call you on the phone and interrupt your work day? Did the OP in anyway compel you to try and answer their question? The answer is NO THEY DID NOT. If you didn't get the response you wanted when answering a query MOVE ON! You don't owe these people anything and they don't owe you. And if your time is really that valuable why are you sitting around on the internet instead of doing something productive. Hoping to feel productive by getting what you think is a proper response from an OP is a real gamble and a waste of your own time!

 

The real issue here is that everything you're all wishing for in an OP's behavior to be is being negatively impacted by this threads existence. Any newbie reading this who is reasonable and understands faults may feel he'll too easily fall into the wrong category and be dissed before he gets started so he /she doesn't start at all.

 

I find this type of post to be as negative to the life of IFI as any TROLLS post maybe and if I were Glenn I would have a mind to stop postings like this as quickly as I would any other negatively based post on here.

 

MY 2 cents

[VaughnT]

Doc, that's an interesting premise.  According to your logic, everything is okay because people are just being people.  Everything.

 

I find it curious that both you and Basher agree that it's perfectly acceptable to chastise folks that don't agree with you (the people "complaining" in this thread), but see it as wrong for those folks to chastise others.  This thread is so bad you'd have it removed from the board...... but a hundred simple repetitive threads from new guys is cool?  Where's the logic in that?  Why is is awesome-times-ten for someone to demonstrate a unwillingness to do basic research?  If a new guy was able to find this forum, how can they say that they couldn't find the basic information contained in this forum?  Yet we're awful for privately questioning that?

 

"The real issue here is that everything you're all wishing for in an OP's behavior to be is being negatively impacted by this threads existence" That's just so far off the wall that I can't wrap my head around it.  You agree that critiquing someone's work is perfectly okay because it helps them become a better smith, but critiquing their research and study habits is just plain awful?    How is discussing a perceived problem negatively impacting a potential poster's future behavior?  If it is, then the reverse must also be true and, maybe, they'll see this thread and think, "Hmmm, ya know, those guys are sorta right.  Maybe I need to do a little prior planning and general research before I ask yet another where-do-i-find-an-anvil thread!"

 

To give you an example, some time back there was a new thread in the anvil section where the new guy asked for help finding an anvil.  According to him, they were scarcer than hen's teeth.  Well, he just happened to include his location in his bio, so I jumped on Craigslist and Ebay to see if there were any anvils within easy driving range.  Surprise, surprise, surprise.  In less than two minutes, I found two very good anvils in the same town he said he lived in, and one of them was advertised as having been professionally refinished by the local blacksmith association.  Two minutes on the internet, from a guy that's relatively horrible with computers, and not only did I find two good anvils, but I found that there's a bunch of local smiths, as well!   Yet the new guy posting would have us believe that he lived in the middle of the Sahara.  :rolleyes:

 

That we see those kinds of posts regularly seems to be indicative of a larger problem in society as a whole, and that's what we're discussing here in the "everything else" forum.  The only personal attacks I've seen is when you liken posters to trolls simply because they disagree with you.

[stowaway]

As a new guy, I'd just like to say that I understand and appreciate where you are all coming from. Wise words gentlemen. This forum is a great resource of knowledge and every question I have had so far has been answered before I could ask it, just by doing a little digging. So thank you all for being willing to share what you know.

[VaughnT]

Thank you, Stow.

[Timothy Miller]

I think this problem could be partially be solved by not allowing the threads that contain original information or valuable information to be buried be by posts that ask for the 900th for a date on a Hay-Budden anvil. Perhaps these should tacked to the end of a relevant thread to enforce some sort of order.   There should be a balance between the needs of the beginners and the needs of the more advanced.  I have learned a bunch here but when I see that 90% of the new posts are the same old questions i want to come here less and less.    There is a reason why beginners start at the bottom and get the work no one else wants to do.  Its because the make mistakes and mess things up for the old hands who have paid their dues. If you really want to get good at this you need to have some discipline and perseverance.    Perhaps there could be a beginner questions section with a bunch of stuff pinned to the top for easy reference.

[MLMartin]

Mr Miller is stop on. Way to many of the same old questions over and over and over. Maybe some of the moderators could start condensing old threads or just deleting the junky ones

I really like I Forge Iron but slogging through the repeat posts is very discouraging for people in the middle to advanced side of metalworking. I have many friends that are professional smiths that will not consider using IFI for this reason.

Here's hoping IFI gets better all the time!

Mackenzie

[jeremy k]

I haven't seen a web site yet for advanced blacksmiths only. I'd hate to think how much backlash the site would get if there was a mass deletion of newbe repetitive threads, along with the time the moderators would have to spend more than what they do already keeping things a clean "G" rated site here. I'll still continue to read and post.

[Neil Blythin]

Many larger, older forums (on various topics) have had to struggle with this same thing - the same old 'newbie' question asked a thousand times. It does get tedious.  What a number of sites have done, and works well, is to condense the relevant info from all of those types of threads into a wiki or other 'knowledge base' sort of thing. After that, you clean up the message board/forum portion of the site by deleting old threads.  Drawbacks to this approach, is that it takes up a lot of your admin & moderators time to do so. And those users who get off on having high post counts, get upset that that number gets slashed when those old threads disappear.

 

I'm a bit of a computer geek, and have seen quite a few of the Linux user forums go through that exercise. It usually leads to a small revolt by a few very vocal users; and those who remain have a far better site.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

Cheers,

Neil