I have a right to know what you know

[beth]

cila - the take it easy on me thing is irrelevent - its just a case of treating people with dignity even if they know nothing. we all once knew nothing, some of us still do ;)
this doesnt mean no hard truths - just means give benefit of the doubt that people are sincere in their learning. you have lost nothing, its what makes the world go round :)

[Steve Sells]

I like what Dave Einhorn posted. The baseball analogy is a very good example for my point of view, I get upset at the many that wont take the time to get the basics before attempting larger projects. I had a man in my shop last week, in his first year of learning, mostly alone, this was his second time in my shop. a Few months ago after explaining how the side draft flue works, and fire management, I had him make his own forge tools: tongs,coal rake, chisel and punch. This time he wanted to make a knife, between these 2 visits we had talked a bit in the chat about forge welding. So this time I had him weld up some 1.5 inch dredging cable. It was 16 inches long, I started it for him, explaining why and what I was doing, then let him have it, he did very well, I assisted only a small portion and to speed things up after he got it about 1 inch round and solid, ran it through my rolling mill to flatten it to about 3/8 thick, then had him widen it a bit. Over the 2 days he did in fact hammer out a nice cable welded knife, and I rough ground and HT it for him, and gave it a fast etch so he can see the pattern. Its up to him to do the hand sanding he sees what it needs, then re etch and mount a handle to finish. It can be done, but he did in fact learn some basics, and he practiced them in between his 2 visits. Also a big part of his success was not me, but the fact that he has SOMEONE experienced to guide him along the way. It is very hard for people to reinvent the wheel, also a guide prevents one from getting bad habits.

I was very fortunate to have a few goods smiths take the time to be my guide as I was learning, and one who still assists me with ideas and suggestions even after 20 years. A beginner can do advanced things but only after they take the effort to get the beginning solid, Starting to read a novel from the middle chapters never gets a good result.

[ThomasPowers]

I've had a student or two who *demanded* 100% of my attention when they were working in my shop---I could get nothing done while they were there as they wanted me hovering over them constantly. They are less welcome than someone you can show what they are supposed to do and then go off and work on something of your own and have them come to you only when they had problems or were finished.

Of course even they are more welcome than the person who stood right next to another student while I was showing them what to do in class and then tell me "I wasn't here when you taught that".

[Glenn]

p.s i am entitled to know how to change my profile picture. it isnt working, tell me now, or i will do..... i dont know what.

I am having problems with that same feature at the moment. When I figure it out I will let you know (not because of entitlement but because I want to share the knowledge.)

[iron woodrow]

its all cool :)

[John B]

What a surprise that you Beth would have such a strong reaction to what I wrote. So this is also a social network. Yes it is. It is also about learning the art and craft of blacksmithing. What is a beginner? How long must someone be a beginner before they move to someone that is learning the art? It’s easy to say, “Hey, I’m a beginner so take it easy on me.” You Beth are no beginner. Even a beginner has certain thresholds that they must attain to continue learning. If they want to dabble in blacksmithing then they should say so.

We are all 'beginners' some of us just a little further on the path than others, by passing on any knowledge we posses we are keeping the skills alive and creating a "level playing field", the more knowledge shared and learned the higher the level of that particular field.

Blacksmithing covers many fields and there will always be leaders in each field, sometimes they may lead in more than one field.

I am happy to pass on the knowledge I have, and if someone can do it quicker, or better than myself, then good luck to them, the thing that irks me, is when someone you (or others you know) have given time to and passed on your learning time and knowledge to, then proceed to openly tell your potential clients, "I can do that, and cheaper too" (especially as newcomers or hobbiests without my or other professionals overheads or ancilliary knowledge necessary to the task))

Personally I will not compete on prices others quote, it is a sure way of commercial failure, I have seen these people come, and I have seen them go, and I was still there up to retirement.

Once asked why my price was so much higher than other qoutes, I replied, because I know what I am taking on and how to do it.

I explained what I would do in the circumstances and what was necessary to achieve the outcome, After a couple of weeks the chap came back to me and gave me the contract, he had asked the others relevant questions and they evidently came up short of what he required.

I have also seen the finished products from these people, and feel comfortable with the fact that what the client paid is usually reflected in the finished job, so long as they are happy with the item, good luck to them. At the end of the day I have not lost money or compromised my own established quality levels. It takes a long time to establish a good reputation, but only one poor finished example to ruin that reputation.

At the end of the day, that is me out there in any work I have done, and I have a pride in what I do, not for me personally so much, but for the skills I have learnt and to honour and perpetuate my memory of those who passed their skills and knowledge on to me.

I am still happy to pass on any knowledge I possess if asked in a proper manner/attitude

[Yetti]

well...

I can honestly say not everyone deseves the knowlage some people have to offer. some people need a swift kick in the pants vs, knowlage. the people I have trained to do my job over the years is wide and varied. some folks are good folks they want to learn and they want to be part of something bigger then themselves. others would have you belive if it wasn't for them the walls would come tumbling down. those are the ones I have no use for. anyone else is welcome to what I know.

[Borntoolate]

I was not able to read this whole post. it hit one of my buttons...

Knowledge that is not shared is wasted! Why hold back on sharing knowledge based on what others may or may not apply?

Sharing knowledge is like planting seeds. Some grow. Many will not. Others will lay dormant for years or decades then take root and blossum. Some will bear more fruit than the seeds you have sown. Many seeds will whither. This is NOT your concern.

YOU do not know which will happen and so any individual who decides to restrict his sharing is potentially not planting the seed that could grow into a fabulous tree. Now, in one to one training, day to day this is very different. But in an online forum I do not think that holding back is wise. Whether you choose to take the time involved to teach effectively and thoroughly is your choice. But don't hold back based on some sort of belief that some don't deserve it. Others do.

Holding back knowledge is selfish.

[LDW]

Most people that do blacksmithing are hobbyist. These hobbyist make up a large percentage of the funding that blacksmithing groups across the country generate.When I got into blacksmithing I was a hobbyist, and saw one demonstration a month and got a newsletter once a quarter. I was starving for information then and strive for more information now. Today we have the internet with access to more good and bad information about blacksmithing than ever before. I have been doing this full time now for 15 months and have had the oppurtunity to work with Brian Brazeal for the last 26 months or so. I have learned from Brian that showing people something is only the beginning. It is up to them to try it until they are proficient at it. Most classes are aimed at making something. From working with Brian he will tell you, and I will help emphasize, that making something is not the goal, it is strictly learning the process or particular elements of forging that will produce efficient forgings. These elements change for each individual person because the more you learn the less you have to think about what you are doing. This results in you being able to improve what you do everytime you start a fire. It all boils down to forging something with the fewest heats and hits, this results in the most efficient foring you can do with the knowledge you have achieved. We should all take it on as a personal goal to share information with the people that have shone a true interest in the craft. If you are helping someone as a friendly gesture, always make them promise to do the same thing for others one day. That is something Ernie Dorrill has always said. I hope this thread leaves people with the feeling that they should help the craft of Blacksmithing by sharing their knowledge.

[Tim McCoy]

Thank you, to those that have patiently answered the questions I have sent out. Thanks for the responses in the Prayer threads. Thanks for not pointing out too harshly when I offer an opinion without having very many creds to back up what I say. Thanks to those of you who try your darndest to mentor the overly eager newbies.

In the couple years I have been part of IFI I have witnessed men and women work through personal challenges, diminishing metal work, and a world that is changing even as we visit here. I have never been made to feel less than important and have developed some online friends. I remember the overwhelming amazement once I found IFI. Like a blind dog in a meat house, I did not understand which way to look or what to ask for. Seems that some of us learn how to fit in and how to ask and how to respond by trial and error - those are the people that stay here to accept what is offered and to maybe provide a little encouragement to the latest batch of newbies.

I will, hopefully, spend the rest of my life working at developing the skills that I have seen exhibited here. I happily stand on your shoulders - thanks for allowing me to be present in your virtual smithy.

[Ramsberg]

LDW makes an excellent point!

There is a vast difference between blindly sharing knowledge, passing on tips and teaching one to learn!

I consider myself to be extremely fortunate in that I was home schooled for 5 years, by parents who were both professional teachers at one time. More then anything else they taught me how to teach myself. So that in the years after my schooling I have been able to greatly expand my knowledge in any subject I wish to.

Unfortunatly many people have never been given this type of schooling and have instead been taught to learn by following instructions. Getting a bit off piont here, but that is a massive issue for many who attempt to transition from High School to a College or University. In the later it is assumed that the student will figure out what to study and how to study it, while in the former it is all spoon fed, with some exceptions of course.

One technique that my father would use was to intentionaly arive at class late(as the teacher) with instructions for someone to step up and take over the class if that happened. The Principal was not very fond of this practice, but it really got the students involved on a much higher level of learning. It also exposed who in the class was most responsible and capable. Some are neither.

The point of this rant is that teaching ones self is very difficult, teaching someone else is even more difficult and teaching someone else to teach themselves is the most difficult of all, except for maybe teaching someone else to teach someone else to teach themselves.

Frankly, there are a lot of people who outright stink at teaching. I have a feeling that most of them are the same people who use the statement, "Those who can't do, teach. " , I would suggest the statement, "Those who can't teach, do, and shouldn't try and teach! "

There are a few such as Frank Turley and Brian Brazeal who excell at teaching not just how to make things, but as LDW pointed out, the why of the how to do it more efficiently.

Through out history, true sages have been very rare, but they have existed and period writings indicate that they were sought after to answer difficult questions. There was one sage I read about who lived in Japan, can't recally the exact time period or his name, but he dictated that anyone could ask of him any question and he would devote all of his wisdom and focus to answering it. His condition was that once he began to answer, the questioner had to sit and listen to the whole answer. One such answer took over 10 hours to give!

There being people who lack patience and respect, but are foolish and greedy is nothing new at all. The ancient Chinese produced clay drinking cups which if filled to the top would spill through a cleverly hidden and routed hole in its side, if however it was only partially filled, it would not spill on the drinker.

Maybe what we all really need is a "Teachers Corner" which would be a seperate deal like the "Members Projects" and intended to be used by those who know how to teach, to teach others how to teach! I have a feeling that almost anyone who has been blacksmithing for half a year or more has had people ask them to teach them how to do some basic smithing and although there is a lot of information out there about how to do the basic smithing, there is very little if any at all about how to TEACH the basic smithing!

Caleb Ramsby

[Glenn]

As Borntolate says, plant the seeds. Some will grow, some will not, so plant extra. How many extra? At least enough to produce the next generation of blacksmiths and Master Blacksmiths, who will then be able to plant more seeds.

[Rich Hale]

WEll that just pushed my button so to speak. I am in fact not selfish in any manner. If someone comes to my door they will likely dine here. If someone comes to my door and is rude they are simply not welcome,,ever. Not selfish at all. When someone asks for help in the room or in the forums and by word or action does not use any of the help provided. For instance when they ask about heat treat. Wayyyy too much info for a simple answer or reply. Someone will offer a little advice and one of the troup will offer a link to a wonderfully composed tried and true method that will not require one of us to sit and write it all out once again. Then when they post the same question again and it is easy to see they did not reseaerch the links provided, that is just rude. And at times it is even worse. In the chat room I have seen a question asked and someone spends a few mintues giveing a well thought out answer of great value. and by the time they hit the magic button the other person is gone. And That samwe person will ask the same question again another time. RUDE! You have a right to feel I am being selfish when I never ever help that person again. I disagree.

[LDW]

Hey Rich I hope it was not me that pushed your button because I started my wish with "share information with the people that have shone a true interest in the craft"

[SmoothBore]

Interesting how this thread has brought out such a variety of views.....

Obviously, some folks feel They are the center of the Universe, ... while others see themselves a Citizens of the Universe, ... and still others are more inclined to Observe the Universe.

:mellow:

[robert hanford]

It seems to me that there are many different ideas at issue here. One is simply etiquette. I am sure many people just lack basic good internet manners-on the other hand it takes a while to understand how a forum such as this works. This links
with another idea-the concept that a forum such as this has mentors. These mentors are people who choose to make their experience available to whoever asks for it. They have both technical expertise and experience. But of course they feel dissed when a newbie (perhaps) does not understand that "please" and "thank you" are still essential even in this day of intertainment.
I want to say thank you to the people that have not necessarily given me advice-but who have posted. I have read the posts often. Also to the runners of this forum who it is now apparent to me devote an awful lot of time to keep the whole thing going.
Sincerely,
Robert

[Phil Burns]

I can deffinately see where you are coming from with this. But on the other hand when you become a Blacksmith, member of the 'brotherhood' or the 'clan' or whatever title you wish to call it. At the end of the day we all have that common skill and love of turning a dull piece of metal into a beautiful object or work of art. weither it be a simple bracket, or an Ornamental Gate. We all share that pride of achievement. And I believe it to be more of a common courtesy to asist or pass on the 'tips of the trade' if we can.

I was fortunate to have served a full and rewarding apprenticeship under what I concidered to be a true Master Blacksmith. I left school at 15 and spent the next 7. Yes 7 years! under the control and guidance of a man who came from several generations of Smiths. And if it wasn't for him passing on his knowledge and skills over those years. Then I know I would not have achieved what I have done since.

"Blacksmithing is a trade you will never stop learning!" was the first thing he said to me back in 1972!!. And how true that is.

Although I have moved on since those days. I have converted my garage into a Forge / Workshop just to keep my hand in.
Remember guys Blacksmithing is a trade that has evolved over the centuries of time, and if we don't pass on those skills and little words of wisdom to help out our fellow tradesmen occasionally. As those before us have done then this noble art of ours has a danger of dying out. Maybe its not a god given right to tell everything we know. But I don't feel we should refuse if asked.

[Ten Hammers]

Holding back knowledge is selfish. Remember that!

I have a customer. Finished goods forged work for them. Their stuff (designs etc). Roughly 4 pages single space of different units. When we started, 14 years ago, there were a few first parts. Over the years, I have had prints on napkins or just rough drawings on paper. Piece work. My job is to make it happen (in a timely fashion if I wish to make money but ultimately make it happen). Large amounts of R&D. Some things built once and never again. This specific venue alone has done pretty well for me (1099 work). I consider this work the same as any contract work (which it is) that is proprietary to the customer. As has been noted earlier, trust is earned.

None here or anywhere will see pictures of this merchandise or any of it for that matter unless they visit my shop. When some folks DO visit and see me building something, they may ask what a particular thing will be used for or who will buy it. 9 times out of 10 I will tell them I really could care less. My job is to build it. I don't bite the hand that feeds me. Write me a check and another order, thank you very much.

I am happy to show lots of things to anyone that visits the shop or an event where I have the trailer shop set up. This is quite satisfying to me to help people simply because so many people have helped me. Sharing knowledge indeed teaches me many things in return.

Please don't patronize me and call me selfish because I may not share everything I know on the net.

Oh, and another thing. I ain't the brightest bulb on the string but I do sparkle sometimes. The friendships I have made here and Jocks (sorry) are lifetime friendships.

[Yetti]

I don't see the selfish part of holding back knowlage. I guess its not a matter of being asked a question or rather that of answering it. it falls more to what is going to be done with the information being handed over? if you can't see yourself on either side of that put yourself in this. if you gave up all you know to a person and that person undermines what you know to those around you by not following through on the minor details then you have wasted your time. the devil is in the details. no matter how much I give to those around me I find it hard to give everything if just for lack of respect by how they translate things to the next person or group. it makes me crazy.
Don't get me wrong, I love to teach, and the next group that comes along I will do my best to teach them too.

[macbruce]

I don't have much to say about this other than I really don't mine answering Q's here to newbies if I please, no big deal. If the new member hasn't at least miniumaly filled out they're profile I won't respond anymore. I just annoys me if a new member can't take the time to fill in some basic info, cripes I's not like you're giving up your SS#.

[Steve Sells]

Borntoolate admits he didnt read all the posts here, and most likely isn't going to read these replies either. But still he has the nerve to complain and insult us anyway. There are 3 posts in a row calling us selfish, as once was not enough for him to Insult us, but still he can not bother to read what he is complaining about LOL

Who here is holding back information? I do not see too many of your posts where you are teaching people how to things? when is the last time you took in a apprentice?

Dont start what you cant finish. ya got me hot now.

[peacock]

I guess the part that bothers me most is the lack of commitment. Almost everything I know I have learned from others. I for sure get more from this forum than I give. If I feel I can give a correct answer I'll be glad to post. Most times someone else is faster in posting and that saves me from typing it out. Sometimes I will post and get a phone call wanting more info.that is fine. Often I have invited that call. Now comes the rub.
when people are really after me I will often invite them to my shop so we can have some hands on time. I have a well equiped shop with several power hammers to use as well as other equipment. I know travel time is hard to come by, but if you really want to know find someone willing to help and go. When I wanted to learn about power hammers I spent hours and lots of money going across states to get a chance to work with people, some of you are on the list also. Then I spent more money on speeding tickets hurrying home to put what I learned to pratice before I forgot. My point is If you really want to know you must make an investment, a sacrifice of yourself. When people see you are serious they will bend over backwards to help. I am nothing more than a compulation of all the people who have taken the time to help me
and I think the payment that is due is to continue passing along that info and give credit to the people who gave it to me. Thousand of typed words and hours of free minutes on the phone will never replace a day or 2 building a relationship with someone who knows what you want to know.

[ciladog]

Steve,

You always say it like it is. Don’t you know that you are not being politically correct when you just blurt it out? Take a cool shower and don’t take it personally. :)

You know what makes me laugh. From time to time a real master smith, author of books, been a smith for maybe 40 or more years, on this forum gives an answer to a question. Most of the members don’t know who it is because he/they use a screen name and yet have mentioned how revered they think this smith is known by his real name. And yet, when they answer a question the instruction is contradicted by the weekend warriors.

Now that is funny. If they only knew.



And how many members that are real craftsman and masters of the craft have been driven away by egotistical and narcissistic attacks on them in the past? That is a loss to us all and, I for one would wish for them to come back.

[mudbugone]

That pretty much sums up things.... No matter how much virtual information is shared be it in words or photos unless it is transferred then into actual usage then it's much like reading an encyclopedia or textbook. You might learn it ,but it's unlikely you'll be able to put it to use without that hands on reality.

Anytime someone asks a question and gets answers it generates discussion... The original asker may not utilize the supplied information ,but the community as a whole can then draw from that knowledge and instead of one person learning something dozens & dozens of visitors & members do learn and use the knowledge. It isn't necessary that the original poster utilize the information only that they generate the discussion.That process generates more questions as well as more in depth thinking on whatever is presented. In the end there will be someone that does take that information and use it & be thankful it was provided.

I've seen things posted that were totally unrelated to something I was doing ,but caused me to think and apply some portion of the discussion to whatever I was working on... No questions...No discussion... No reason for the forum in the first place.

[ThomasPowers]

All we truly have on this earth is our time; people who ask us to spend it on them are asking for our most precious possession often we are willing to share it but we don't want it wasted!

Heinlein put it very well I believe; please read and consider what he said:

"Do not confuse “duty” with what other people expect of you; they are utterly different. Duty is a debt you owe yourself to fulfill obligations you have assumed voluntarily. Paying that debt can entail anything from years of patient work to instant willingness to die. Difficult it may be, but the reward is self-respect. But there is no reward at all for doing what other people expect of you, and to do so is not merely difficult, but impossible. It is easier to deal with a footpad than it is with the leech who wants “just a few minutes of your time, please--this won’t take long.” Time is your total capital, and the minutes of your life are painfully few. If you allow yourself to fall into the vice of agreeing to such requests, they quickly snowball to the point where these parasites will use up 100 percent of your time--and squawk for more! So learn to say No--and to be rude about it when necessary. Otherwise you will not have time to carry out your duty, or to do your own work, and certainly no time for love and happiness. The termites will nibble away your life and leave none of it for you. (This rule does not mean that you must not do a favor for a friend, or even a stranger. But let the choice be yours. Don’t do it because it is “expected” of you.)"