I have a right to know what you know

[ianinsa]

"Hello, I am a newbie on this forum.". "Can someone please tell me, in one short paragraph, how to forge a 512 layered 12 inch bladed bowie knife, pattern welded, out of 1095, A36, 5160, and wrought iron". "Please be advised that I have no forge, have never lit a match, never swung a hammer, and cannot, for the life of me, put my location on my profile". :"And, by the way, can someone please donate an anvil and forge to me, because the world owes me a living". "I will be so grateful for your help, that I might even acknowledge your presence in the chatroom with a robust "hello"". "And, because I am a WORLD RENOWN MASTER BLACKSMITH reincarnated, I don't even have cause to thank you for your help".

And your problem with this is?

Now that is sarcasm!

Cast the seeds my friends most may fall on stony ground, but one sucsess will usually make up for countless failures.

Regards to all.

Ian

[beth]

nice one ian - we can refer to the parable of the sower for all those who know the bible story... :)

[Rich Hale]

My hat is off to not only the originator of this thread, but also to each and every one that has participated. It has given me not only thoughts to consider for personal growth , but just as importantly I have new insight into a lot of the folks on here. A little about them and how they relate to the world as we know it in here. Most important it confirmed a couple of things for me: It reaffirms the way I perceived some of you and it allowed me to place more value on some of you that I did not have thoughts formed. In addition It let me know that It is certainly not age related issues that have formed my willingness to help those that ask. If someone is not willing to use information I or anyone on here gives, and has unrealistic wishes to fulfill without doing any of the options that would allow them to learn, then I do not care how old they are or how young. Someone may be able to aid them and further the learning curve. It will not be me!

[Wayne]

To my mind it seems that while every generation has had its problems /rebels, nowadays it is magnified by the current culture of every thing on demand.
Mobile phones, the internet, reality tv - X factor, pop idol etc.
People are now so used to getting what they want on demand the whole idea of having to put in any effort has gone out of the window. Need some info? just google it ,when ten - twenty years ago you would go down the library or call / write to someone.
Look at some of the 'famous' people on tv and in the news, it girls and such. What have they actually done?
Reading the comments posted here, we all seem to be of the same mind that we are prepared to share our time,craft and skills. Some will give their time to all that come along, while a general view appears to be that as long as the request is done in a reasonable manner - excuse me but how? as opposed to I want such and such. Then we will all take time out to share what we all love.
Respect and curtesy begets respect and curtesy
Wayne

[ciladog]

I consider myself a rank armature when it comes to blacksmithing but I try. It says, over my avatar that I am a junior member and that is just about what I am when compared to those who have been at this craft for so many years. When I see a smith make metal move with such ease as though it as second nature as it is for them to breath I am in awe. I doubt that there is enough time left in my life to ever achieve that level of proficiency. But again, I do try to learn what I can and I practice what I have learned.

A few years back I watched a video on Youtube where I think it was a UK blacksmith make a ram’s head poker. And I thought to myself how cool was that. I never had made one but thought that through the courses I had taken and my limited experience I thought that I had the skill set to try. So I printed out a bunch of freeze frames from the video depicting the different step of the process. I went into the forge and I tried again and again until I had made my first ram’s head. That was a big self-achievement and it felt good. Even though I was copying another smith’s method, I felt I was teaching myself how to do it. Over the few years since I have changed the way I do it always trying to refine and get better at it. Some of you may have seen the video I recently posted on making a ram’s head. It’s not the best head yet but I’m getting there.

Why did I make that video or the other videos I posted on Youtube? They are my personal achievements. I post them when I think I have figured something out that I have not seen before or when I think that I can help someone try something new the way I felt when I watched that video of the making of the ram’s head.

From time to time I do answer posts on IFI. But I never offer my help or opinion if someone else has already posted a response that I think is a good answer. What is the point of that?

Now today I had a visitor. He was the head engineer of a company that I had interview with for a job as a prototype mechanic when my architectural woodworking business was tanking. Well I didn’t get the job because of internal politics and salary but he and I connected as kindred spirits in the world of machine building and metal working.

Little did I know that he would get laid off after working there for over 17 years? It’s about money. Some GM’s thing that you cut based on salary and not on skill sets. This company will never be able to replace his sill set at any salary.

Well I guess job hunting is not going so well and he reached out to me to take up my invitation to come and play in the forge. Today he came.

We checked out the woodworking shop, the machine shop, and then got into the forge where his eyes lit up. I showed him the press, the power hammer and all sorts of tooling and finally asked, “Do you want to make something?” To which he answered, “I want to make this.” And he proceeded to draw it on a piece of paper. george.pdf “What is it”, I asked? It’s a coal pusher and puller for my coal stove”, he said.

We talked about different ways of making it with the stock we had on hand and decided that we would make it from a piece of ¼ x 3 x 9.

Now I was a bit nervous because I had never done this before and I was supposed to be the teacher. After 3 hours of forging taking turns on the power hammer and the anvil we come up with something acceptable.



My point in telling you this saga is to say that with the basic skills of blacksmithing and some thought you can probably get through something like this that you never made before. It may not be perfect the first time around but down deep you know how it must be done.

[yesteryearforge]

sounds like a lot of HS to me as it doesnt even approach BS

[ciladog]

sounds like a lot of HS to me as it doesnt even approach BS

Thanks for your comment. You are a good man with a well grounded understanding of human nature. It's at times like these that I ask myself why bother. Some more food for thought. XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

[yesteryearforge]

Cildog my comment was about the thread in general and in no way was directed at your last post
If I offended you I am sorry as it was not meant as a reply to what you had just posted

[Glenn]

The mods are reporting all the events where they have x'ed things out. Most are coming from this thread.

There are specific guidelines for language and specific guidelines for personal attacks. Re-read the guide lines if you are not sure what is allowed and what is not allowed.

IForgeIron is a family forum. Please help us keep it that way.

[Ric Furrer]

Now I was a bit nervous because I had never done this before and I was supposed to be the teacher. After 3 hours of forging taking turns on the power hammer and the anvil we come up with something acceptable. My point in telling you this saga is to say that with the basic skills of blacksmithing and some thought you can probably get through something like this that you never made before. It may not be perfect the first time around but down deep you know how it must be done.

Ciladog,
A little nerves heightens the mind....
I would assume that you could now make three of them three different ways in that same three hour timeframe. With one-off work it is often an extrapolation of what "should" work, what "has" worked and what you should have done ten seconds after you did something else.

I have not done this lately, but in years past I would keep a few hours of friday open to play...no agenda really, just heat up some odd shapes or drops or what not and see what it does with a given force applied. The trick is to watch and see what is happening as you go....if you see something interesting then do it again....repeatability is the basic building block of technique. Keep notes...on paper and in metal..save the interesting parts forged.

The above does two things...gets you comfortable with the unknown and allows you to explore that unknown with your tools rather than following another's tool path.
One of the traps that some fall into is that they get good enough to look at a drawing and say "it is best to make it this way"...it is efficient yes and if you job is product out the door (which I guess it "should" be) then maybe it is the only way, but it most certainly does not allow for serendipity.
And we could all use a few serendipitous moments in the shop.

Then again...I consider it a good effort when I make tooling and jigs for a job that minimize my input of skill when using those tools/jigs. In effect I do the up front work in designing the tool so that in its use the tool does the rest. It means that I do not have to be "on the ball" the whole time...it makes for a more repeatable product.

Sorry for the sidelining of the thread,
Ric

[metal99]

Just spent the past couple hours reading this thread and wanted to share my "tell me how its done" experiance.

I have always wanted to make knives and have attempted with no knowledge making a few crude knife shaped objects. A little over four years ago I was looking at some pattern welded blades at our local knife store and decided I wanted to make something like that. So four years ago I joined this forum. I started a thread that I wish I could delete. I straight up asked how to make damaskus steel. I spent a few minuts reading about it and just up and asked my question in this forum.

Although the answers to my thread were far from what I expected it was indeed the best advice I have been given. Graham Freeden and a few others gave me the best advice. They told me on other words to stop what I was doing. That I should slow down, read read and read. Then I should learn basic smithing skills and take it slowly learning one step at a time. Remember this was four years ago. So at the time I took the advice a little on the harsh side, I was not rude to them when replying to the thread and in fact thanked them for the tips. I was upset that I was not going to get the damaskus tips I was looking for and never came back to this forum till a couple months ago.

I have spent the past four years reading and talking to the few people I know that have had some black smithing experiance. I have read and studdied so much in the past four years and just a couple months ago I felt ready to attempt my first forged blade. I came back to the forum and re-read my first thread and shook my head. . . The questions I was asking made me turn red! They did not make any sence and if they did they were so basic that it really made me look stupid. So I messaged Graham back and thanked him for his great advice. The reading I have done in the past few years has helped me make a decent first knife. I have spent the past couple years playing around with metal, getting the feel for how it moves under the hammer. If every one would have just said "here is what you do" I would have tried it, failed at it and gave up on it. So now I take the time to try to learn things on my own and only try to ask the questions needed to clear up some of the really confusing things that simply do not make sense to me. I usually ask a question and have an answer to go with it just to see if I am on the right track. At the same time sometime I like to try something out first and then try to figure out why it did not go as planned.

[SmoothBore]

I make tooling and jigs for a job that minimize my input of skill when using those tools/jigs.

AMEN.

When I started out in the Engineering racket, the Company I worked for was using a "designer" :unsure: to build automated assembly machines, for use in building fractional horsepower electric motors.

This guy's "methodology" involved building a "fast & dirty" facsimile of a process, ... and then spending the next 6 months, applying ill-conceived "patches", wherever a problem emerged.

The end result was a ridiculously complex, nightmare, that was impossible to troubleshoot, or repair.


That experience, ... ( repeated several times during my tenure with that Company ) ... instilled in me, a healthy respect for "elegantly simple" design.

It's my opinion, that complex thought, tends to yield simple, effect designs.


.

[Ramsberg]

Hey SmoothBore,

To paraphrase, "Complex thought yields simple, effective designs. "

I really like that one!

Add to it:

"The simplist machine does not always have the fewest parts. "

and

"Engineering is a series of compromises. "

Then we get a trifecta that should be painted on the wall of every shop that devises and builds machines, assuming of course that the workers speak english.

Thanks for your thought provoking observations.

Caleb Ramsby

[ciladog]

Cildog my comment was about the thread in general and in no way was directed at your last post
If I offended you I am sorry as it was not meant as a reply to what you had just posted

I jumped to a conclusion because of the timing and proximity of your post. I accept your apology but it is I who should be apologizing to you and the members.

[ianinsa]

The whole PURPOSE of this forum and similar sites is to INFORM. The experienced and knowledgeable KNOW this when they board The Good Ship I Forge Iron. The fact that the water might be choppy, or that icebergs may loom, should not deter the confident nor the adventuresome. Just avoid the icebergs, take some dramamine, and carry on. I actually LOVE teaching this craft, and NOTHING can deter me from that pleasure.

Hey!, WHO are YOU and what have you done with the REAL stewartthesmith! :D :D :D

[peacock]

Haveing just retired after 15 years teaching welding in a prison I can tell you the greatest reward does not come from the student that progres easily. The student that struggles but stays with it and finally succceds Is by far some of my best memories. He has learned not only how to weld but how to solve problems, deal with dissapointment and think for himself, sometimes withsome guidence from others. These skills are the ones that will carry him thru the hard times he will face in the future. When I started teaching I tried to teach "think outside the box". Now it's more like don't build the box in the first place. If we can have patience with the serious seekers, share what we want to, incourage them along the way the craft will thrive and never die. My goal is for my students to be much better than I ever was. In 15 years I had over 1,300 students I learned something from every one of them. Who do think learned the most in my class?

[pkrankow]

Haveing just retired after 15 years teaching welding in a prison I can tell you the greatest reward does not come from the student that progres easily. The student that struggles but stays with it and finally succceds Is by far some of my best memories. He has learned not only how to weld but how to solve problems, deal with dissapointment and think for himself, sometimes withsome guidence from others. These skills are the ones that will carry him thru the hard times he will face in the future. When I started teaching I tried to teach "think outside the box". Now it's more like don't build the box in the first place. If we can have patience with the serious seekers, share what we want to, incourage them along the way the craft will thrive and never die. My goal is for my students to be much better than I ever was. In 15 years I had over 1,300 students I learned something from every one of them. Who do think learned the most in my class?

{sarcasm} No possible way it could have been the TEACHER, you were there to TEACH not LEARN {/sarcasm}

Teaching is a way to learn. I am sure in your first few times through teaching the class you learned more than the students, and refined your problem solving skills immensely.

Phil

[dablacksmith]

well this is a long thread and a LOT of good answers ... I do a lot of demoing and am asked a lot of stupid questions ...i tend to not post much on the stupid questions that happen here (waste of time) I do get people who want me to teach them and if they are serious i will help but...I have in the past had people want to "aprentice" under me .... I figured out that theyre real reason for being in my shop was to make a particular item ...once that was done they were gone...its something ive learned over the years now that i want someone who shows commitment if ime going to bother to teach.If you show commitment and willingness to learn i can help!but blacksmithing isnt something you learn by reading in fact the basics are all mussle memory and eye skills and feel..and there is a learning curve you cant change ....

[FieryFurnace]

[
There is no entitlement, in my humble opinion. I have been blacksmithing for 6 years on my own. The first 4 years or so was spent learning on my own, through books, and through this website.
The reason people helped me on here was, not because I was entitled or had a right to their help, but because I tried things, posted results, asked questions, and then altered my method based on the advise given. I worked hard to PROVE that, if you chose to give me advise, I would use it!

There is NOTHING that rubs my skin the wrong way more than watching some student in a class, back-talking, ignoring, and constantly disputing the teacher. That teacher is taking his time to instruct the student and he doesn't HAVE to. I don't care if my teacher calls me the dumbest student he's ever had, I am going to take that information and better myself based on it. Not get mad and get this "you owe me" attitude.

I think that a smith should be WILLING to share his knowledge with students that have proven that they are truely willing to learn and to work hard.
No student should expect that, no student should act as if he has a right to that information.

[Montana7]

Wow. Very interesting thread with plenty of opinions & insight.
SmoothBore,
For me, your posts very much stood out from the rest & always got a big "thumbs up" from me. Although there are plenty of other posts I completely agree with, to my way of thinking you said it the best. I do like your style.

[rthibeau]

FieryFurnance is an excellent example for younger people today.......some are willing to work at it and can be taught. Keep it up FF.

[Ten Hammers]

This may have been stated before.

You get this many hogs in a room, someone will bite anothers tail and that's when the squealin starts.


Getting along is not tough really. Most smiths I have personally met are top shelf folks. Some might ask what I make. I sometimes reply " ice cream. out of horse manure ". This will break the ice simply because we are asked sometimes to make different things. Making something that is in someone elses head come out my hands is a treat some days. This may or may not require a piece of chalk.

Ric also makes very good points. Get a procedure. Do it. Make stuff ( given parts or finished goods ). Do this till you happy. Sometime when you make some more, reverse or invert parts of the procedure (this being easier said than done on some issues). Keep a spiral notebook. Keep an eraser on your pencil. Save first parts. Apologies again for the hi-jack.

My knowledge base is smaller than some in the trade, larger than others. As per the original posting of the thread, you have the right to glean anything you may from what I do. I will try to be as helpful as I can but what Rich said pretty much sums up the rules (if there are any rules).

[small potatoes]

I think one thing that is very critical to blacksmithing has been touched on in this discussion, but has not yet had the focus it deserves. That is the fact that it requires a great deal of physical training. By training I don't mean building muscles, though that is useful, but making skills into muscle memory and spinal reflex.
In this way, blacksmithing is much like boxing, ski racing, playing a musical instrument or base ball to name a few.
The way it differs however, is to the untrained eye, they just see you hitting hot metal with a hammer.
It would be hard to find someone today who has not used a hammer at some point, so when they see a smith at work, it is a familiar activity to them, and they think "I can do that."
In this way, the highly trained nature of the craft is concealed from the observer, unlike the other examples I cited. They wouldn't ask Franz Klamer how to win an Olympic downhill, or Wynton Marsalis how to play Bugler's Holiday, it's just too far from their experience. But they assume they know how to use a hammer, and if they just memorize the recipes for making the blade, plow, helmet, etc, that they want to make, then they are a blacksmith.
Their experience with the hammer is akin to them using Franz Klamer's skis to keep their feet dry crossing a puddle, or using Wynton Marsalis' trumpet to scare the neighbor's cat out of the yard. As has been said several times already, "they don't know what they don't know."
What I am getting at with all this is, if they ask you how to forge a complex item, and you give a detailed explanation, you have given them nothing. They don't have the training to do it.
An interesting parallel is learning a foreign language.
Now you may think, "language isn't a physical skill" but try telling that to anyone recovering from a stroke. And it is similar to blacksmithing in that the physical training part is hidden from the casual eye.
I spent 8 years teaching English in Japan. In that time I worked with Japanese English teachers who had great vocabulary, and knew more about English grammar that I ever would. But they could not carry on the simplest conversation with me in English. All my communication with these "English teachers" had to happen in my basic Japanese. They knew all the recipes, but had never learned the physical training to speak English. It was much like the person who has pounded a a few nails and thinks he knows how to use a hammer. The teachers knew how to speak, they thought all they had to do was memorize the recipes. They never realized that speaking in Japanese is a different skill from speaking in English.
With my students I emphasized the need to practice speaking, and those who did, progressed quickly, as you might expect. But the Japanese culture is so focused on memorizing, that many would just stick to that, and progress for them was less than productive.
I had two students come to me wanting help to prepare for an English Speech competition. They were very good friends and had both chosen Martin Luther King's I Have a Dream speech. One gal was crazy about all things English and loved speaking and singing in English. She had the skills needed, and I was able to work with her so that she was able to deliver a very good speech.
Her friend was a memorizer, but insisted on the same speech as her friend. I did all I could with her, but her idea of practice was to silently memorize, and you can guess the result.
The beginning smith wanting to make a very difficult piece as their first project will have much the same result as my poor memorizer.
But if we encourage them to start with the basics, do lots of reading, and I would argue, practicing in conjunction with their reading, they should make good progress. It is my feeling that the physical practice is critical for two reasons. Reading and then doing is a very strong reinforcement, and it gives them the chance to get the feel for how the metal moves, and just as important, get started on their mistakes.
One of the best, and most overlooked learning tools are mistakes. I think any experienced blacksmith would agree, though maybe I am starting a new debate.
To sum up, I would argue that when someone asks for information they are not ready to use, give it, or not, as you are inclined, but far more important, encourage them to get to work on their reading, practice, and mistakes.
Some of that encouragement will fall on deaf ears, but some will also nurture future smiths.
anyway, just my two cents. Sorry for being so long winded.

[Frosty]

WOW is this a long thread and worthy. First off thanks Glenn and Andrew, you be de men!

As a social gathering of individuals we're getting all types from lifelong professionals to first timers and everybody in between. I started smithing because I like playing with fire and beating steel into submission. The spur was an episode of Bat Masterson where he'd been stranded in the wilderness and had to make tools, weapons, etc. He came on a ruined covered wagon, pried some iron off it and forged what he needed from a knife to arrow heads and such.

Well, Dad discouraged smithing, he and Mother said I should take up a paying trade and wouldn't hear of smithing as a hobby. That meant I'm largely self taught as a smith that is. Our whole family are metal heads, Dad was a metal spinner and machinist and everybody worked in the shop. Anyway it wasn't till the late 70's I discovered a book about blacksmithing and shortly after ABANA. Finally I could ask questions and eventually I found someone I could watch.

Okay, that's enough about me. As far as education went I studied paying trades: fabrication, welding, machining, equipment operation, etc. When I started working in some of these trades I discovered what Mother and Father had really taught me, a solid work ethic AND how to figure things out. Every skill is a matter of knowledge and practice. There's NO magic.

Okay, now on to Ciladog's original question. Are owed information? (Paraphrased) Sure, it's out there take what you want. Are you owed the answers? They're out there too. Practically? I can give you information but I can NOT teach it to you. Learning is up to the individual, ir can't be imparted. Okay, within reason, I can teach you to dance with my pistol but what you take away probably won't be the polka.

Ever hear someone say, "If I had one of X I could do that". I thought this was a product of the post WWII industrial boom. Folk could own goods that were completely out of reach only decades before partly because factories turned them out cheaply enough to reduce the price and partly because folks were making a good living working in the factories. Not so, seems there was a similar attitude in Rome, give me the tool and I can do the job.

Now what? Folk can get the tools but still can't do the job. Must be secret knowledge eh? Old time apprenticeships were times of indentured servitude to earn trade secrets, Dad used to talk about how hard it was to learn the tricks. What are folk hoping for? A magic bullet is what, don't we all? I can't tell you how many times I've stepped onto the learning curve hoping for something simple and effective. I'm actually pretty lazy so I'm always hoping.

Some folk learn on their own and are usually well worth helping out, some take special effort and are even more worth helping. The best victories are the hardest victories. Some folk wouldn't learn to dance if I used all my pistols. I have pretty good reading comprehension so I don't spend a lot of time on folk I figure aren't going to learn now matter what I say and I HATE to admit defeat.

Anyway, like any social gathering I wander around, eaves drop, sponge information and join conversations as I wish. I used to have much thicker skin before the accident but the callouses are coming back so, no problem. I like to talk anyway so answering questions is a pleasure, heck, there's NOTHING so good as a good question. I savor the good questions, how complex or technically demanding is not the measure of good question, it's how much it makes me think, examine my own techniques and knowledge. Pure gravey, mmmmmm.

Every once in a while you run across the individual you see promise in but seems to be their own worse enemy. Yeah, sure we are all our own worst enemy but. . . You know the guy, wants to do something advanced but is willing to work their way up to it and still spends time trying to learn at an atomic level. Sure, I can tell you why iron gets soft as it gets hot, why it welds without melting and with a little memory sharpening why carbon makes steel stronger and harder or turnes iron into cast iron. If a person is particularly annoying or rude I just dump more info on them than they can sift and move to another group in the party.

Okay, I think that was long enough to fit into the thread so I'll let you get on now. (wink)

Frosty The Lucky.

[ciladog]

FieryFurnance is an excellent example for younger people today.......some are willing to work at it and can be taught. Keep it up FF.

I will definitely second that. He should be an inspiration to all that want to learn this craft not just the young. He is working long and hard for what he wants to learn.