Farmweld Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 @mudbugone what you have done is a gross breach of copyright. I have copyright on a gate design in Australia and it has been copied by several other companies in Australia, which I am not particularly pleased about becasue them marketing my design costs me money! Just check out some of the legislation the American movie and music industry is forcing through your legislature to see how seriously they treat this. Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudbugone Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 If you are talking about the Cushman frame. Please explain how making the measurements of a machine built by a company that is now defunct available to others is an infringement on anything. That design hasn't been made in 50 years by Cushman. I know of at least 2 companies in the last few years actually building clones of that machine and marketed right here in the USA. Now they may or may not have infringed on Cushman,which is highly doubtful considering the extinct company and the time frame involved. I'm fairly sure my making available to public use a measured drawing of an obsolete machines frame dimensions couldn't be construed as a copyright infringement. Under current US law, the term of patent is 20 years from the earliest claimed filing date (which can be extended via Patent Term Adjustment and Patent Term Extension). For applications filed before June 8, 1995, the term is 17 years from the issue date or 20 years from the earliest claimed domestic priority date, the longer term applying. Your situation is different I'm sure since it involves your ability to build & make money from your idea... I neither profited from or took from anyone alive with any legal connection to that style scooter.I simply made available information that anyone could find by taking a scooter and putting a tape measure to it... A 65 year old scooter isn't rocket science and there are other similar build plans readily available online. I was attempting to build a scooter to the correct scale so that aftermarket parts could be utilized to fabricate an entire replica scooter. With that thinking most every hammer,tong,forge,or even fabricated machines are an infringement on some patent right from the past .....although I doubt anyone building a tire hammer gives that any consideration.... I find no difference in a hundred year old toggle assembly on a Little Giant and the assembly on most every tire hammer built . Is that infringement? Doubtful. Is stealing your copyrighted design infringement ? Absolutely. I can understand how some may feel protective of methods of doing certain things related to this and their ability to do something a little different or better from knowledge they may have learned... Which is a totally understandable position and only a fool would think otherwise,but to keep common knowledge information like a hoarder I surely don't understand. We all have learned what we know from the efforts of someone else there is very little "new" being thought up..and to imagine things associated with one of the oldest crafts on the planet are either private or can't be found threw other avenues is a bit nearsighted. Something like Andrews situation is indeed robbing from him,but once anything is posted anywhere online it is officially in the public domain and subject to use and knowledge by the entire planet now.The only way around that isn't very attractive. It involves hiding in a cave and having No interaction with others...of course then you face the matter of being cut off from learning from others that know something you didn't and never will. I'm an old guy and time is limited and if I ever expect to enjoy those things in life that have always facinated me wasting precious moments of that time fighting for inconsequential bits of knowledge when the knowledge is freely available seems counter productive. I allocated 6 months for learning to weld to build things I needed I spent 2 years..That was necessary for other goals.. Blacksmithing is something I want to learn...not in the next month..It'll take several months to just gather the tools and knowledge to even get into the shallow end of the pool. Nothing comes easy,but there honestly is no reason that I can imagine to try to make the journey a nightmare for anyone.What I know about welding ain't much...Weldors are pretty tight fisted on their knowledge too....but I have the tools and enough knowledge to do what I need and that was the goal. I may have asked a hundred stupid questions in the last few years,but I'd like to think I turned around and answered a 1000 questions. When someone asked a question I didn't know...I looked for the answer. We both learned and I'm sure there were dozens of others with the same question (that were afraid to ask it) that learned from our conversations. Everyone on the planet knows "knowledge" is power in whatever little form it manifests itself.Holding that power over others isn't in my makeup. I'm the sort that has no trouble sharing what little I may know with someone that asks. I can't take it with me and it serves no purpose at all not being used. I'm not saying everyone should share their personal little tricks online about doing anything special,but how to make something or build something or how to start a coal fire??? I'm not sure what got this thread started,but it seems to be drawing a lot of attention considering the number of hits it's taking in a few days online. A lot more hits than comments that's for sure. Wonder why that is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Furrer Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 I have copyright on a gate design in Australia and it has been copied by several other companies in Australia, which I am not particularly pleased about becasue them marketing my design costs me money! Just check out some of the legislation the American movie and music industry is forcing through your legislature to see how seriously they treat this. Andrew Sorry to hear about that Andrew..it is all to common I fear. I have had clients bring drawings and photos and quotes by other smiths to me for building to see if I could beat the price. It usually involves a long talk with the other smith on the phone. I once built an entire railing from a clients rough sketch and some talking....a few years later I saw photos of the same basic concept in one of the "Anvil's ring" which someone had done in the past. The client had seen it, drew it up and sent it to me to build....I had mixed feelings about the job for years. Ric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWHII Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 WOW! Take a couple of days off from this site and you miss a grass fire burning. :lol: How ever I would like to say, " Coveting knowlege no matter how basic is one reason this craft almost became extinct." Where would we be if Alex Bealer went to the old mans blacksmith's shop back in the woods and he told him to go away. I don't have time to answer you simple questions. Granted it does get tiresome to anwser then same question over and over when you just have to research it a little, but I too at some time probably have been quilty of asking some of the same questions to someone. I have seen the look in their eyes. Someone like Grant Sarver who took the time to talk to me on the phone and tell me how to correctly temper a breaker point. Something he must have been asked thousands of times. Thanks to him I now have income doing this kind of work. I get phone calls all the time from people just wanting to know something basic. I hold open forges for people to come in and experiance blacksmithing and to light there first fire. No matter how busy or sometimes annoying it can be I will take the time to share what others have been so kind to share with me. It's called giving back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 HW got a problem with that quote as coveting is not the right word as covet is to desire intensely so "To desire intensely knowlege no matter how basic is one reason this craft almost became extinct." seems to not be what you are trying to say, right? *Hiding* knowledge is what hurts the craft. In the old craft guilds of Europe Masters often were quite secretive of their knowledge as that's what set them apart form the others. Here in America we tended to be a much more open in sharing knowledge---which resulted in the great flourishing of American Industry in the 19th century. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 absolutely thomas :) well said!! everyone benefits from generous spirited people - and harold - giving back is totally part of the fun isnt it? and what goes around comes around :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudbugone Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 StS...Your responses to questions reflect that attitude and speak volumes about your character as well. You are a positive asset to this forum as well as comments on other forums I've noticed your name attached to. Those that seem to be the most knowledgable also seem to be the least bothered by things... like yourself being secure in ones abilities generally breeds civility and a comfort zone some lack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Furrer Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 believe it or not, I do not even sweat my "proprietary" information getting out, or my bread and butter info. I am so confident in my abilities, I am sure that I can do it faster, better, and neater than anyone using information that I have supplied to them. If they give me a "run for my money", shame on ME! I had better up MY ante! I guess I am not so keen to give away the store. "give away the store" was the same translated response I got when I sat down with a Japanese sword maker some years ago and asked about certain nit picky techniques. Since then I have been able to answer those questions on my own. Over the years I have recreated several ancient and medieval metalworking techniques...early on I would cast the information to the wind..now I much prefer to plant and see it grow. In the end the simple fact of it all is that if one person can figure it out so can another....if you wish to put in the time. Ric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudbugone Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Ric.. I think you are confusing general knowledge with special knowledge as it relates to somethig as specialized as creating a specific blade or something similar... I would never advocate tossing special and proprietary specifics upon the open forum...those secrets were hard won and should remain the possession of those that worked for them. I thought this conversation related to general overall knowledge and the sharing of such basic information... How to make a specific blade or any other product is absolutely a thing that should be shared on an individual basis with those the owner cares to share such things with. If I gave the impression I advocated 'giving away the bank' so to speak...I certainly did not mean to include such specialized knowledge as what you are referring to. Such knowledge isn't quite the same as the length of a spring on a tire hammer or the correct size of a coal forge... The specifics on making a blade would surely be considered a private knowledge should the owner so desire. I doubt anyone would argue that point...or at least they shouldn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWHII Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Thomas, I think I have it right. I mean to desire the knowledge you have so much you do not want to share it, in fear it will be used against you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Yes I understood exactly what you were getting at---knowledge hoarding rather than knowledge sharing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 In SCA armour making it is amazing at how happy the professionals are to help people wanting to make armour. Turns out that once someone has tried to make the stuff themselves they figure out that the "outrageous prices" the pro's charge are actually DEAD CHEAP! And the few the persevere often go on to become colleagues and friends! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudbugone Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 There have been 463 views since 6:00 AM and 14 posts.... Lots of visits..Few comments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 In my humble opinion we can look at two extremes. At one extreme is the smith basically bending wire (round or square) into hooks and stuff. At the other extreme are master smiths such as Stuart who have studied and polished their skills. My humble observation is that polished skills can't be stolen, it can only earned by practice, patience and experience. The example I have used too many times, is baseball. The primary skills are running, throwing, catching, and hitting a base ball. How long does it take to become a world class baseball player? Can someone pass on the "secrets" over the Internet? Absolutely not! The "secret" is how the muscles are used, which ones, and in what sequence. You can scream and yell at a person learning a sport or any other physical activity, but only by experience will they finally *gradually* over time understand how to use their muscles. The world-class baseball players don't have to worry about anyone stealing their "secrets" because they know that it takes many years to develop the skills and experience to compete with them. We have become a society that expects short-cuts, and as the result somehow by expecting short-cuts feel that anyone who does not share those short-cuts are hiding secrets from us. The frustration of not being handed those short cuts unfortunately leads to rudeness towards the masters of any physical skill because they don't have any secret sort-cuts to dispense. No one is keeping "secrets" except those whose income depends on low-level skills. As Nol P. another master smith (whose work is in the National Cathedral) once said (paraphrased), "your best instructor is the clock on the wall. If you are not making something as fast and as nicely as a professional smith, then you are not doing it correctly. Change what you are doing (including hammering) until you are as fast and accurate as a professional". So the "secret" is to put a clock or clocks where you can see them while working, and keep changing what you are doing until you can work as fast and as accurately as the master smiths such as Stuart. --------------- On the other aspect, answering the same questions over and over again. My suggestion is to keep a file or files of your answers. When the collection of your writing reaches sufficient pages, organize it and share it in a book. Then you can just refer people to your book and save yourself from frustration. You will likely not make much money (if any) from the book, but you will save yourself the time and possibly postage to mail or email packages of information to people. Yes I have shared what some have considered "secrets" in my book. But those "secrets" are relatively simple processes that turn what looks complicated into a set of relatively simple processes. It took some doing to extract some of the processes especially the wheel-making processes from experienced wheelwrights. But those processes require low skill. Still, to such items such as a large wooden wheel at a professional level still requires time, patience and experience... probably over years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Furrer Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 I am the only manufacturer in the western hemisphere of slate shingle rippers, used on every roof with slate shingles in the world. Others would be nonplussed if they had that monopoly, but not I. My competitors in AMerica import these tools from england. It is a very difficult tool to manufacture, and takes a lot of skill to forge. I wouldn't mind if someone sat in my shop and watched me make them. If they could get it right, I might even hire that person, rather than have a hissy-fit if they "stole my secrets". I also manufacture slate hammers, another tool that my competitors import, from germany. Even if someone watched me for a week, in my shop, I don't think anyone could make them faster or better than I do. This whole "worry" about proprietary info is pure flatulence. Hello All, I appologize ahead for tangenting this thread a bit. Stuart, You and I seem to be on opposite sides of the issue...which is fine. I have little interest beyond the fact that they are tools and my curiosity....I'd like to see these two tools that you are able to make more efficiently than anyone else. I will not produce them, but I'd sure like to see them. If I were you I'd be trying to break into the English and German market rather than have their work imported here. Seems like a growth area to me. As to efficiency. 15 years ago I began making trap net anchors for fisherman in the Great Lakes region. I am not the only one making them, but I am the only one forging them..the rest simply weld on plate for the flukes. (pictures are on my website for those that care http://www.doorcountyforgeworks.com/Trap_Net_Anchors.html) The first batch, given the tools I had, required roughly 20 heats per anchor...a ridiculous number, but I committed to the gig and I did the work. Now..15 years on I have it down to 7 heats and maybe another for tweaking. I had it to 4 heats for a time, but the product suffered...so I added a few to increase quality. As my tooling improved and I could bring more force to bear and design tooling to utilize that force..the work got faster and the product became better. There is another leap I do in efficiency with more tools, but that will wait till a larger order comes in...no need to invest in that at this time. To date I have made about 1,000 of these..the demand is not great so the numbers are low. Would I show a video how-to to make these? No...no reason to I think. Anyone who has been forging for a while can see what is done to make them. Ric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciladog Posted March 6, 2012 Author Share Posted March 6, 2012 While I thing that is great that so many member have strong opinions and have responded to this thread with a good dialog, you have changed the gist from entitlement to giving or offering your knowledge or experience. Passing on one’s knowledge and knowhow is a good thing. But do you pass it on just because someone asks for it? That is the question. The question of your willingness to give of your knowledge was not posed. The question was about an entitlement mentality that seems, at least to me, to becoming pervasive in the world society that we live in today. More and more people are less willing to work for an achievement and believe they are entitled to have it. Now we can not get into a political discussion and we should not. What I wanted to know is are you willing to give of yourself to someone who is not will to ‘pay their dues’ and work for what they want? I’ll give you an example of what happens here on IFI at least every few weeks. Some member posts that they are trying to learn how to forge weld. They have read all about the subject on this forum (maybe) and went into the shop and tried it. Well it didn’t work so the very first thing they do is post a thread asking, “What did I do wrong?” But what I want to know is how many times did he or she try it? What kind of weld were they trying to make? What did they learn from their failures? What do they think the problem is? Like looking into some crystal ball they want to know what you know so they can make that weld. But unless they figure it on their own or you take a class or have someone proficient at it teach them (one on one), the only way they will learn is by doing it over and over again and paying attention to what happens each time. But they don’t, just tell me and miraculously I will be able to do it. It’s an attitude about self-achievement and/or entitlement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 its not that at all - its just that not everyone is used to learning this kind of skill, for many many reasons, and they simply do not realise every facet of what they are trying to learn before they have learned it !!!!!!, understandabley ( in my oppinion) because they are beginners! ALSO the whole point of a forum is the SUPPORT and the SOCIAL aspect - if we wanted to learn in complete isolation none of us would be using this fabulous facility.!?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 What? Are you talking about the "me" generation? The spoiled ones who just want everything handed to them because they deserve it? With no effort on their own? I see them every day. BUT in regards to blacksmithing I am impressed with how many are bit by the forging bug and what they will do to learn it. What they will do to make their own forges and anvils and pound on something. They are learning the hard way and picking up some bad habits along the way, but they are learning. And for those I will do what I can to guide them along the way. Yes, there are those who still try to take what they think will be a shortcut but at some point, hopefully, they will see that doesn't work. They'll see that you can't hand someone a skill. They'll have to work for it. They'll have to pry some of that money from their hands and put some energy into it. I've been frustrated with some that just ask on every thread catagory how to start instead of reading what's already there for them. But those I don't expect will be around long as they aren't sincere. Just a momentary adrenaline rush." I want to make a sword..." So I brush them off and focus on the others. Some of those others have impressed me with not only how much they've learned but also with what they've done with it. Already passing it on to their school or museums, helping to preserve old shops and forging factories. They have so much energy. I think it will be amazing to see what those that appreciate this craft do with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iron woodrow Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 i am generation y, and i have not seen this attitude you speak of, this "the entitlement complex" people ask, because they have been led to believe that there are people (not you obviously) on this site that would help them to learn and grow, as humans and as smiths. look through these forums, you will never find a comment or reply where a member has said "come on, YOU OWE ME!" sometimes a question that might seem hasty, or abrupt, (also older members have this attitude also) but i am yet to see it i am afraid. i may have asked some irritating questions in the past, not sure but SOMEONE may havethought so, but i live at least 300km from any other smiths, and sure, i have completed an industrial blacksmithing trade, but there are some things that werent covered by said trade. i could travel to find the answer, at great cost to me, and my family, or spend a lot of time and effort reinventing the wheel, or (and this is a slim chance) someone on IFI may have had similar problems and will take the time to discuss it with me like a decent human. if the answer is "dont know" i will go back to the drawing board. it seems that sometimes it goes the other way. sometimes, the young are seen as "not entitled to learn" by the older members. is this the case? p.s i am entitled to know how to change my profile picture. it isnt working, tell me now, or i will do..... i dont know what. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciladog Posted March 6, 2012 Author Share Posted March 6, 2012 Randy, I agree with much of what you say but I’m playing a bit of the Devil’s advocate. I owe you a debt of thanks for if not for you, I would still be posting, “What did I do wrong?” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciladog Posted March 6, 2012 Author Share Posted March 6, 2012 What a surprise that you Beth would have such a strong reaction to what I wrote. So this is also a social network. Yes it is. It is also about learning the art and craft of blacksmithing. What is a beginner? How long must someone be a beginner before they move to someone that is learning the art? It’s easy to say, “Hey, I’m a beginner so take it easy on me.” You Beth are no beginner.Even a beginner has certain thresholds that they must attain to continue learning. If they want to dabble in blacksmithing then they should say so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Lets say I was an Author and someone came up to me and said "tell me how to write a best selling book" and talking with them you find out that they know neither how to read nor write. Would we be expected to spend months teaching them to read and write so that they can profit by our knowledge; or would it be ok to say "I'd be happy to coach your writing *after* you learn the basics" and point them toward a beginning literacy program? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iron woodrow Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 it would in my opinion be perfectly ok to say that thomas. That would be very constructive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 cila :) phew your hard work man !! :) i hear what your saying, but i disagree and i think the only person that suffers from holding this view so strongly is yourself, im not sure i understand what is so bothering you, i wish i could encourage you to adopt a more live and let live approach, offer what you feel like, hold back what you would rather keep, you make your points well, it just upsets me when beginners or anyone at all is not encouraged and helped, its no trouble to help. nobodys learning journey is the same, nobodies set of personal variables are the same, we have to take a nurturing family like stance on a forum like this or its relatively pointless, or at least a bit incoherent. i am passionate about the art of blacksmithing, in all its truest finest manifestations, but we are not all at the top of the game ( im certainly not!) and this stuff takes YEARS. i personally have struggled an awful lot with so many aspects of the craft that i couldnt even begin to bore you detailing them, and as someone who continually gets things the wrong way round and in the wrong order and all mixed up, i utterly sympathise with the beginners, and utterly value the patient givers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 thomas - yes, thats perfectly reasonable, but people who ask this type of thing either realise the mistake, and cool, everything is ok, OR they clear off cos they didnt really mean it. all is cool :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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