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I Forge Iron

I have a right to know what you know


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All we truly have on this earth is our time; people who ask us to spend it on them are asking for our most precious possession often we are willing to share it but we don't want it wasted! Heinlein put it very well I believe; please read and consider what he said: "Do not confuse “duty” with what other people expect of you; they are utterly different. Duty is a debt you owe yourself to fulfill obligations you have assumed voluntarily. Paying that debt can entail anytbing from years of patient work to instant willingness to die. Difficult it may be, but the reward is self-respect. But there is no reward at all for doing what other people expect of you, and to do so is not merely difficult, but impossible. It is easier to deal with a footpad than it is with the leech who wants “just a few minutes of your time, please--this won’t take long.” Time is your total capital, and the minutes of your life are painfully few. If you allow yourself to fall into the vice of agreeing to such requests, they quickly snowball to the point where these parasites will use up 100 percent of your time--and squawk for more! So learn to say No--and to be rude about it when necessary. Otherwise you will not have time to carry out your duty, or to do your own work, and certainly no time for love and happiness. The termites will nibble away your life and leave none of it for you. (This rule does not mean that you must not do a favor for a friend, or even a stranger. But let the choice be yours. Don’t do it because it is “expected” of you.)"


Thomas,
I think you're right on to point about the value of our time. I just hope that you and everyone else who's posted on this thread find it their duty to be here rather than answering all the questions on other threads on this site. This might help to explain the huge number of views on this thread as compared to the small number of posts and their relationship to one another. :unsure:

Doc
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LDW In no way was my note directed at you, in fact so no one else takes it the wrong way it was in direct respoxe to borntolates thought that we, and I take that as I, are being selfish when we do not share information with others on here ,some of whom have shown total disrespect for those of us that do try to share information. In several of the areas on this site I at times have information that may indeed help someone that is starting or just plain stuck on a project. My intention is to continue to do that when I am on here. I expect those seeking help will be respetfull and appreciate wot is offered. Those that I see as rude will receiive no more. Period.
And as long as I am on top of this soap box let me address the issue with Steve Sells; Steve does indeed show in short words his thoughts on those that just seem to want to ruffle feathers here. And most of the time he says almost to the letter wot I am thinking. Wot folks do not see is the tremendous amount of respect he has for this site and those that use it. I kind of know a bit of wot he does behind the scenes and that is simply tons of work. When we see something posted in an incorrect location in the forum and later it is in its proper place that is just a small part of wot he and others do. I can only imagine how he feels when he comes across folks that simply will not use the information compiled here and then demand that we simply give them a recap of needed information so they can just become skilled without working..Use it or not, not a big deal for me just do not tell us that it is a site problem.
Thanks to all of the folks that keep this going behind the scenes and contribute. And thank you Steve for your part.

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I find this site to be VERY informative. It has helped me a ton to be able to see so many step by step solutions and projects. For the people stating that it is the Smiths responsibility to spend their time answering the same question over and over again is sorta gimpy. I believe it is the responsibility of the student to pursue that knowledge. In that pursuit should be a level of respect and gratitude that often is not given across the internet. Many people are misunderstood on the internet because there is no intonation, No face time, and no face for that matter. Its just a picture beside a name. This is a problem across the board with forums, internet chat, and even when you call your bank or customer service. Its a bit of detachment.

I have seen first hand people come into chat, ask a question, get an answer they didn't like, and therefor direct that question at one of the other people in chat that either gave them a different answer or didn't answer at all.

I've seen people get mad at certain answers. I've gotten upset with posts to questions, ideas etc. In the end, more often than not, it still came down to a misunderstanding of what the question was, what was expected, or a lack of etiquette/respect for something.

For the people that comment that Rich Hale, Steve Sells, Thomas Powers etc etc are gruff individuals that are hard to deal with, or mean to newbies, I disagree. They are, to me, some of the most helpful people on this site. Not to say that there aren't many many others that help and that I look up to, just that I have seen them spend large amounts of time, THEIR TIME, explaining answers to questions or pointing someone to a thread. I don't know how many times I've asked something in chat or in the forum to be answered with a thread link. When I read through that link, if I have any questions about what I've read those guys are more than happy to fill in the blanks. At the end of the day the old saying comes into play "Everybody has to be somewhere". You're never going to make everyone happy. If you feel you should spend your time answering every question you know the answer to even if its been answered elsewhere, go for it. If you feel you should not, I don't feel that's a big deal either. Its your time, spend it how you will.

Its all about perspective. I am still amazed at how much information is freely available on this site. Its still growing. To say its a good resource is a huge understatement. Enjoy it, respect one another and respect the fact that we're all different.

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I edited Stewarts post so as not to name a specific blacksmith. The blacksmith Stewart mentioned is no longer with us, and can not defend himself or provide us with his insight, so I thought it was appropriate.

We need to take a breath and realign the conversation back to the original post and discussion.

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Stewart, too bad we can't show an icon for sarcasm, as you would have seen it in my post, too. Sarcasm meets sarcasm. Too bad you didn't see it. That's why the smiley face was put after the statement. Oh, well just my sense of humor I guess...

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Dear stewart, a mild correction: if you will strike your anvil face stoutly with your head I feel that you will find your previous statement hyperbole. Every time I have accidentally done so with my anvil and head I have been amazed at how well the anvil face holds up and disappointed at how poorly my head does---do you think that hardfacing my head would help? As the hair is fast retreating from my brow it wouldn't be much trouble to run a pass or two across it.

Perhaps this thread goes on because there is *NO* consensus on the topic and at last people will have to agree to disagree.

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i am so glad this site exists, and that so many people can come and express their opinions.
and express the milk of knowledge and experience into the virtual world.
i respect my elders and betters,
but not those who demand my respect.
the ones who have gotten so worked up about this subject have long ago proven that they deserve respect, without having to demand it.
i wont name names, you know who you are. and i thank you for your input.
i thank you now, in that i was a day too late to thank the late, great Grant Sarver for his valuable input to my questions.
my connection dropped out and when i was back online i learned of his passing.
and thankyou to the administrators. you do some great work.

and now i will accept my oscar........ :P

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If you were paying attention rather than making ethnic slur's you would have seen we are getting upset after we took the time to answer, Its hard to Un answer. Part of the problem is people like you not paying attention, then complaining cause they don't like what they thought they heard, again.

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"Hello, I am a newbie on this forum.". "Can someone please tell me, in one short paragraph, how to forge a 512 layered 12 inch bladed bowie knife, pattern welded, out of 1095, A36, 5160, and wrought iron". "Please be advised that I have no forge, have never lit a match, never swung a hammer, and cannot, for the life of me, put my location on my profile". :"And, by the way, can someone please donate an anvil and forge to me, because the world owes me a living". "I will be so grateful for your help, that I might even acknowledge your presence in the chatroom with a robust "hello"". "And, because I am a WORLD RENOWN MASTER BLACKSMITH reincarnated, I don't even have cause to thank you for your help".

Stew....how the heck did you meet the teenager that lives up the peninsula from me? He was sent to me and I did a favor for the family...I gave him a forge and some hand tools and lent some some books....never got the books back and he did nothing with the tools. It was the last time I helped in that way. No more for me.
Last time I gave money to a beggar in the US (did it a lot in India) was also with a cup of coffee and a sandwich..he said he did not drink coffee and was not hungry....but he wanted the money...so no more of that either.
On some things I am slow to learn....AND a few bad experiences will lead me in a different direction.

Ric
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I really don't think that this is a generation-specific issue.

Stewart, I remember reading about how you started you apprenticeship. They chose you because you had more respect for yourself and others than the other applicants (this, you claim was due to the fact that you showed up to the interview wearing a suit while the others didn't). Everyone else around you who wasn't accepted was guilty of disrespect in your eyes. This happened in the 70's?

If you think that young people are learning this disrespect on their own, take a look around in public. I continually see middle-aged people on their cell phones at restaurants, in lineups at the grocery stores while the cashier is trying to talk to them, behind the wheel of their car etc. etc. etc. They are too 'entitled' to deal with the person 3 feet away from them. They don't feel their trivial phone conversations can be suspended for 30 seconds to say 'thank-you' to the cashier. The loss of common courtesy thing is as much a cultural/societal phenomenon as it is a generational one.

Adults let their kids act like hooligans in public. Adults let their kids slam their car doors into adjacent cars in parking lots. This runs a whole lot deeper than a blacksmithing website.

Young people are just as guilty as anyone else of committing this. I would believe that they are learning it from somewhere. The anonymity of the internet and the virtual world just makes it easier to commit.

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Maybe I wasn't clear by what I meant by 'generational'. Part of the message I am getting from this thread is that young people are mainly to blame with expecting to have everything handed to them.

Parasites were just as prevalent when you were young as they are on this forum. If the internet existed in the 70's the guys who weren't given the job would have done the same thing that precipitated ciladog to start this thread. It's not a 'young people of today' thing, it's a 'young people of all time thing'.

What really is becoming prevalent in my eyes is middle aged people are now acting like young people (please see the examples in my previous post). Common courtesy is not that common anymore.

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Stewart being that I am 29, I feel like I am probably a part of the basic generation of which you are referring. I can tell you that when I went to my first interview, I did not wear a suit. I did however have on dress slacks, shoes, and a tie. I was taught by my parents that spending the time to dress yourself helps show the employer that you are willing to go that little bit extra to get the job done. I also will end a conversation if someone calls me at the store when I get into line. Just like Sask pointed out. Its all learned behavior.

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I am very curious about something.

At 32 years of age, I am asking those who have been around a rather long time if they could point to a period in history when the reference to adults was prefixed with Mister, Miss or MIsses and when that bit of respect was droped.

From reading fictional books I have found that it was around the 60's or so, depending on author and genre, that it was more then less droped from that subsect of society.

My observation is that it is becoming much more difficult for the youth to rebell. Probably the two best things the youth does are to rebell and cause havoc. Technically my generation, that is the generation of my peers, is not my generation, seeing as how my eldest sibling was then very close to the age of my peers parents ages. I rather rapidly discovered that my idea of rebeling and that of my peers, was a rather large step apart!

I had a point, ahh yes, as I stated and as has others, youth rebels. As an elder friend of mine said, "If the young didn't rebel, then they would never leave the house and go off to make children of their own. " This is partially true, since historically often there would be three generations of a family living in a single house or building, but I believe the point is valid.

What I am getting at here is that when one looks back to say, the early 1800's, the youth on this continent were brought into an increadibly strict society. This was a time when honor was king amoungst men and duels, to the death and otherwise, were common place. The youth at that time made their step in rebelion, then fast forward to the early 1900's and one can see that many steps of rebelion have occured in that 100 years. Yet again, leap forward to our time now and another 100 years of rebelion or as some may call it, "social advancement" , has occured and for the youth to rebell now requires a massive effort.

As a historical reference. When Sir Hiram Maxim was tromping about Europe and demonstrating his new gun to various nations, he had an increadibly difficult time gathering employees which were not drunks. To the extent that men who claimed to be tea tottlers, would disapear for days, lost in pubs, spending every penny they had on drink. Now, exactly how is that respectfull? Sir Hiram Maxims autobiography "My Life" is a very fascinating read for anyone who has an interest not only in the creation of machines, but also in a true historical perspective on the working conditions and workers of the mid to late 1800's. Bellow is a link to a free to download google scan of it:

http://books.google.com/books?id=NLw_AQAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22My+Life%22+Sir+Hiram+Maxim&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ny1YT6z-J4f10gHiiqGgDw&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22My%20Life%22%20Sir%20Hiram%20Maxim&f=false

Click on the little gear looking bit on the top right of the page to open up the options for download file type or one can read it direct on the link. Note, Sir Hiram Maxim was an American.

Mr. Ramsby

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WEll that just pushed my button so to speak. I am in fact not selfish in any manner. If someone comes to my door they will likely dine here. If someone comes to my door and is rude they are simply not welcome,,ever. Not selfish at all. When someone asks for help in the room or in the forums and by word or action does not use any of the help provided. For instance when they ask about heat treat. Wayyyy too much info for a simple answer or reply. Someone will offer a little advice and one of the troup will offer a link to a wonderfully composed tried and true method that will not require one of us to sit and write it all out once again. Then when they post the same question again and it is easy to see they did not reseaerch the links provided, that is just rude. And at times it is even worse. In the chat room I have seen a question asked and someone spends a few mintues giveing a well thought out answer of great value. and by the time they hit the magic button the other person is gone. And That samwe person will ask the same question again another time. RUDE! You have a right to feel I am being selfish when I never ever help that person again. I disagree.


Rich, I wasn't meaning to be rude to you. I mostly reacted to part of what I had read. Teaching and sharing knowledge is an important value that I think is underutilized by Selfish people. However, the examples you give I agree with. Rude people who don't try or don't listen don't really get shared with anyway because... well they don't listen. So, I agree where there is a point with some people that it is not worth our time nor theirs for that matter. But perhaps that is also an opportunity to teach them something else. Like if you show up at my door and are rude and expect kindness that maybe you need some basic training on behaviour. So there is always help and advice that can be given. You would think this would not be necessary but then again many folks have never had the opportunity to be taught basic respect or were spoiled or what have you. They go through life with a great disadvantage. IF someone takes the time to help set them straight with some tough love or what have you... even some of those seeds will grow.
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