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I Forge Iron

I have a right to know what you know


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I know that I will ruffle a bunch of feathers with this post but I have been thinking a certain way for a while reading posts on IFI for the years that I have been a member.

Let me say, at the onset, that I am no master blacksmith (whatever that means). I have been in this craft seriously for maybe 6 or 7 years. That’s not a lot of time in this craft. But I don’t expect someone to impart their knowledge upon me as of a matter of my right.

Am I entitled to your knowledge and experience without the least bit of effort or experimentation on my part? Am I entitled to know what you know without any effort what so ever just because I ask?

Well I submit that I am not. If the blacksmiths of yesteryear waited for someone to tell them what to do we would not have had the industrial revolution. They figured it out for themselves.

Not so today. I don’t have to know anything. All I have to do is ask and someone will tell me what I need to do. Think about it. If you can’t figure out how to make a simple rivet with all the information available then you don’t belong in the craft of blacksmithing, you would be better off pursuing a hobby or career in classical music. Oh, wait a minute; it takes practice to be a musician. How do I play Beethoven's 9th?

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I do have to agree with you. Before I even began to hit hot metal, I read. And read. And read. I feel like I left no stone unturned on the internet, (although there are some other books I should still read). Then, I tried. And failed. Right now, I've gotten to the point where I am able to make some things, but I am no expert. I'm still a Newbie. I haven't been hitting metal for even a year.
You post makes perfect sense. Try, fail, try again and THEN ask the questions.

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This is a sadly more common theme it seems. but not always, I have become more careful about taking time to share things. I NEVER contribute to those threads that sound like "I am interested in this, can you post all you know or a basic rundown while I go get a soda?".

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I would have to agree and disagree. Without the knowledge that is freely available on the net and on forums I would not be where I am. In the years that I have been a hobbiest Blacksmith and now doing it full time I have met 3 blacksmiths in my country, seen only one blacksmith shop and have never had the opportunity to see one at work. Now that being said, I do believe that it is a privilege to have a experienced Smith share knowledge freely and as such one should never assume that it is there right to get this hard earned knowledge freely - At almost 40, I would gladly go through the pains of an apprenticeship if one were available and I think too many want everything now without putting the work in. Having just finished a day behind the forge at 41 deg Celsius after 9 hrs forging all I can say is if you don't love smithing, no amt knowledge freely given on the net or in this forum will get you anywhere and figuring it out yourself is better than being spoon fed.

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it is always worth while considering what it is you are actually asking , and what you are asking of someone if they reply (keeping in mind the years of their experience and their shop rate not earning whilst they reply to you).
having said that .
we are very very lucky that people like to answer questions and be part of a group.
I started in 94 so i am still learning!!
no one is obliged to answer anything or give over information they don't want to.
and there is certainly no rite to have that information given.
I consider myself lucky to know what I know, and am happy to pass most of it on. I am luckier still that there is a wealth of people willing to answer the questions I still have even after nearly 20 years.

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A little bit of reading goes a long way, even if it is just to teach you the right terminology.

A quote I found recently, my italics.


"The Internet makes dumb people dumber and smart people smarter. If you don’t know how to use it, or don’t have the background to ask the right questions, you’ll end up with a head full of nonsense. But if you do know how to use it, it’s an endless wealth of information. Just as globalization and de-unionization have been major drivers of the growth of income inequality over the past few decades, the Internet is now a major driver of the growth of cognitive inequality."

- Kevin Drum in MotherJones.com


-and yes, I did check, the guy exists and the website exists (today)
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I myself am a classical musician, and blacksmith only as an amateur. I also teach at a well respected academic institution, and I have to say that students who need to be spoonfed never progress like students who are on fire to learn. If you love what you're doing you can learn from anybody , even people in other areas of expertise, and also from other bodies of knowledge. I feel lucky to be a member of this forum, and I am sure when a member offers his knowledge he/she gives it freely, and mostly to people who genuinely appreciate it. That's just my two cents.
Cheers!

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I would have to agree and disagree. Without the knowledge that is freely available on the net and on forums I would not be where I am. In the years that I have been a hobbiest Blacksmith and now doing it full time I have met 3 blacksmiths in my country, seen only one blacksmith shop and have never had the opportunity to see one at work. Now that being said, I do believe that it is a privilege to have a experienced Smith share knowledge freely and as such one should never assume that it is there right to get this hard earned knowledge freely - At almost 40, I would gladly go through the pains of an apprenticeship if one were available and I think too many want everything now without putting the work in. Having just finished a day behind the forge at 41 deg Celsius after 9 hrs forging all I can say is if you don't love smithing, no amt knowledge freely given on the net or in this forum will get you anywhere and figuring it out yourself is better than being spoon fed.


Check out Conrad Hicks he is in south Africa.

The thing is this sight and others do is to make the information more accessible to the masses. The thing that burns my butt is how many new comers ask the same question they should take the time to look it up first. I like sharing what I know when I started there was no internet at all and it was hard to find anyone in the area that knew anything about it was just chance encounters that pointed me in the right direction. I lived in North Carolina and John C Campbell folk school was around from 1925 but I never ran across any information about until years later.
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I think that one of the problems is just the vast amount of information on this site. If you were to search "Buying an Anvil." You end up with 7 pages of threads, most of them numerous pages long as well. That can seem really daunting to a new person looking to see if the craigs list anvil is any good or a boat anchor.

Now I know that I'm a new smith, and in the scheme of things don’t know jack schnike, but somebody(s) shared their knowledge with me, so I feel I should share what I know. I understand the complaint and frustration of answering the same thing over and over, and the want to fire off a "use the search" reply, But if you are so knowledgeable, perhaps you could link one or two threads to help them in the right direction.

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I do not have ruffled feathers about this at all. For me when someone asks how to do something I will do my best to provide and answer if it is somethin a short note will help;, If someone else has written a lot on that matter I will link to that, or more often let them know which forum it can be found in. If that same person asks again about the same thing I will ask if the info I provided was of help or if they need more. If at that time I find they never bothered I am done with them. Period, I see no reason to force feed them information. Many times I have seen folks ask questions and learn, We can all see those that have come so very far in wot I consider a really short times. They have taken wot was given and moved forward. An like said above. If they cannot heat metal it is not time to talk about forge welding or anhy of the advanced skills.

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Check out Conrad Hicks he is in south Africa.


Thanks, have spoken to him once or twice (lives 2800 kms from me - bit far) helpful if you want to buy tools, but not very free with his knowledge. Met the actual blacksmith that did most of Conrad's work three days ago, what a pleasant, friendly and knowledgeable person, one of the few blacksmiths in SA that did the old government trade test - saw some of his work and was blown away and humbled by how much I still have to learn. They are planning a big smithy 200 kms away, so I will be visiting often.
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what gets me is these young ones that think they are intitled....but i think this is in every media sites, but, the "i'm #1" and the "you owe me" thing has to stop..but i guess them type people will grow up when they get a healthy dose of the real world. folks here have helped me to no ends and it is appreciated,but i do know they don't owe me @@@@ or the time of day

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Another way of looking at folks asking very basic open ended questions is: "How much time do they want you to spend answering them?" Lets say it takes 15 minutes for you to fumble type an answer. With a US$100/hr shop fee they have really just asked you to give them $25---how many folks are you willing to give $25 to when they ask.

For me it's a lot about "pay it forward" as I learned from so many people in the years before the internet and can sneak the time in while running tests.

But, like others, I have learned that people who need spoonfeeding generally do not repay the effort. OTOH some folks take to the craft like throwing gasoline on a fire and are a joy to teach and will go on and teach you stuff too as they go in different ways in the craft.

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well lets put it this way if i ask a intelligent question i hope i deserve a intelligent answer
as to playing Beethoven's 9th am i allowed to ask for the music or would that count as cheating in your book ? am i allowed to ask someone how to read music or once again am i supposed to guess as to how it works
my thought is this in everything i have done whenever i know more than someone ells or i know of a different way to do something if a person is making an effort to learn and they ask for my opinion or assistance you bet i will give it
if someone demands that i show them how to say blow glass out of the blue i will tell them to take a walk .. if on the other hand they have been watching me work and asking for explanations on what i am doing i will see if i can get them to do some simple assistance work with me and teach as i go

in closing Knowledge is not a right or privilege it is a Responsibility and a Obligation .. if you horde knowledge it will die with you and that is a sad loss on the other hand if you can find people to pass it on to the world is a better place if you can find it in yourself to take joy or pleaser in the education or of others you have added a new richness to your own life

just my 2 cents

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I am one of the people that appreciate the information that has been forwarded to me. If it was not for the internet then the little Lorelie Simms book would be responsible for me quiting the BS regime. ALthough it is a nice book, it falls far short of the introduction I received from VERY HELPFUL PEOPLE that volunteered my green coal schooling and others. Thank you internet. Thank you library. Thank you L. Simms. and thanks to all those that freely give of their information and help for the good of Blacksmithing. Carry on .

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So Bigred1o1,

If I give you the music for Beethoven’s 9th could you play it on any instrument? I give you the music; I give you an instrument, could you play it? Unless you are a seasoned musician the answer is undoubtedly no. Unless you are some sort of prodigy it would take you years of practice to play it. That’s not to say you shouldn’t try or ask for help. But at least acknowledge that you are not going to play it without a lot of practice.

It’s the same thing with blacksmithing. I can tell you how to forge weld but until you have tried it and maybe succeeded or failed over and over, you learned nothing until you figured it out for yourself. What did I do correctly and what did I do wrong. Use the information you receive but it is up to you to figure it out.

A member recently posted that he tried to forge weld a hardy tool. He tried once and then posted, “what did I do wrong.” Everyone comes in with advice. Nothing wrong with that but do you think he will get it done the next time he tries. That will be good but I suspect that he will figure it out if he just keeps trying with the knowledge he has been told. It’s not that someone tells him what to do but rather his desire to achieve with the knowledge he has. It will take practice and persistence and not “just tell me what to do.”

It’s about attitude.

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yeah thats true but at the same time there is no need to reinvent something
you are always linking that forklift anvil when people ask about anvils by your logic you should just stay silent and let people subtle along and make up their own idea for a anvil
all i am saying is if you know how to do something and someone asks you an intelligent question respond accordingly
as to being told to learn how to read/play music the most common way that happens is by finding one of them there music teachers
as to the forge welding i do believe that Thomas recommended going and finding a blacksmith to walk someone through how to do it as if i remember correctly he said it can take 6months of trial and error to learn how to forge weld by ones self where a afternoon doing with someone who knows how can significantly speed up the learning curve
as well self teaching is all well and good but if you teach yourself how to do something improperly its hard to unlearn it down the road a good mix of self motivation blended with knowing when to ask for help and advice is far better than sticking it out alone and doing yourself harm
so as i said if someone comes and ask a intelligent question i try to answer to the best of my ability

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This is a very hard craft to learn. If a person is not willing to put in the of effort reading a few things then whats the point of sharing your hard won experience and knowledge with them. I am often shocked by how little some are willing to expend to learn and acquire equipment. The rewards of mastery of the craft are huge. When I see one of those posts, I think you don't even know what you don't know and your eyes will glaze over when I tell you.

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I am glad this post was made, I teach a lot, I get flamed a lot for my feed back, mainly because I do not always come across as I intend, so I will most likely get flamed again, that is ok. I will continue to share, but I do get feed up with all these people wasting time asking the same thing over and over again, ignoring the answers they have been given. Before the complainers state people sometimes need to hear it again to remember, I point out it is STILL in the post they made the last time, as well as all the other posts they have NOT bothered to read or try. so I feel I am being ignored when I take my time to answer.

It is a big site. Should we delete 3/4 of it to make it easier for lazy people to scan? I am referring to those that do not read it anyway or many of these lame questions would be not asked again, So instead the powers that be started breaking up the general smithing section into sub sections to collect topic's to make them easier to find, then people cry because they want all their posts to be in general smithing, One person even posted "no one reads the rest of the forum", and that is Crapola, THEY never read the rest. If they had, they would know its all active. They never look, but expect us all to spoon feed them because they are too lazy to look for themselves, or just want to be the current center of attention. Some of them are no longer here, others are here but you dont see them post because they lost that privilege form being the fool one too many times.


If they took some of their time they have been using asking all these repeat questions to read what has already been written, and then actually tried to do it, they would understand. Then perhaps they would have questions to reflect they have really tried, but as it stands a few prove they are not trying. Some also stated they dont bother with the forum they prefer one-on-one answers !!! If you are offended then ignore my posts I do not lose any sleep over it. but you wont learn much that way.

my Asbestos suit is on :D

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if you dont want to answer a question, dont answer it.
when my kids incessantly ask "why" i try my best to answer in such a way as to enlighten their learning experience.
i dont tell them- dont talk to me until you know as much as me.......
do you throw someone in the deep end when teaching a language? or do you help them along and teach them to say "hello"!
people who arent willing to learn are as frustrating as people not willing to teach.
its all swings and round abouts......
thats my $1.50

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if you dont want to answer a question, dont answer it.
when my kids incessantly ask "why" i try my best to answer in such a way as to enlighten their learning experience.
i dont tell them- dont talk to me until you know as much as me.......
do you throw someone in the deep end when teaching a language? or do you help them along and teach them to say "hello"!
people who arent willing to learn are as frustrating as people not willing to teach.
its all swings and round abouts......
thats my $1.50


You miss the point. This is not about teaching or learning. It's about the attitude of some members. There are plenty of members with real knowledge who are more than wiling to share what they know. It's about the members who are not willing to make the effort to learn by trial and error. They just want it handed to them.
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I think a LOT can be achieved if the answer is not stated in a such condescending tone that implies the asker of the question has caused the would-be answerer insurmountable inconvenience. There's more than just content to the answer. The cynicsm that flies around on some of the veteran's answers probably send some newbies for the hills. Those same answers have also driven the comments of the perceived elitism existing on the site in the past.

Many newbies just want to fit in. If they think that they can do that by starting what they think will be a stimulating conversation with the regulars then they will probably give that a whirl. Imagine their shock when they get told their question is lame and they should go read something before crossing that road.

If everyone read and knew everything that has been posted, the number of new posts on this site would be a small fraction of what it is now. Just think of a site that only gets a post once brand new, novel information is available. It would be pretty boring to participate in a site that only sees 2 new posts/day...

Woodyarmourer nailed it. Well said sir.

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