Compared with carpentary, what specific pieces do metal working folks use?

[okhajut]

For woodwork we need planks of wood. These are cut and tied together in various shapes and sizes to created everything from small boxes to complete houses. There are a variety of different kinds of woods and different ways to cut and attach them together.

What I do not understand is, what do we have when it comes to metal work?

People that use CNC machines will usually start from a metal cube or cylinder. This is machined to create the required end product.

What about the rest of the people that do not use CNC machines? Do they start with sheets of metal and cut and join them together? Or beams of metal? Or something else? I am talking about the metal work equivalent of planks of wood, provided that such a thing actually exists.

Since I know nothing about metal work but am a curious fellow, I thought I might as well ask here.

[anvil]

Well, the primary tools for a traditional smith are a hammer, an anvil, a forge, a blower, and a post vice. Steel comes in basically 20' lengths in many dimensions. There's about a dozen basic techniques you need to learn and an infinite number of variations to apply them. With this knowledge and a bit of experience, you can make anything you want.  obviously a huge implication, but its a good start.

[Glenn]

Start with something close to the profile you want, as it saves time and effort.  There are many ways to attach metal together. Study what you want to make and use existing methods to build that item. 

[Shainarue]

If I'm understanding correctly, you're not asking specifically how things might be forged using blacksmithing techniques but just in a very basic and general sense asking how metal is turned into useable objects of any kind (tables or buildings) - just like how wood is turned into boxes or houses.

There are also a variety of different kinds of metals (eg: softer, soft, medium, hard, harder) and different ways to cut (snip, chisel, saw, torch, laser, etc) and attach them together (tack, rivet, screw, weld, braze, etc).

If no CNC machine to cut a shape, most people will use a saw of some sort - whether that's hand operated or electric - same concept.

The shape of the metal comes from a metal manufacturer of some sort - just like the shape of wood comes from a sawmill or some variety thereof. 

So if you want to make a skillet, you start with a thinner plate of metal instead of a big thick piece - just like if you wanted to make a cabinet you would start with a thinner sheet of wood instead of starting with a big thick piece. Of course it's *possible* to start with the big thick piece in either scenario - but starting with something closer to what you want in the end product (like Glenn said) saves time and effort. 

[okhajut]

So specifically to make things like beds, desks, chairs, stools, wardrobs e.t.c. If metal is used, what would you start with? Sheets of metal and then cut and weld them together? Circular rods of metal? Hollow rods of metal? Sqaure rods of hetal? Hollow square rods of metal?

With wood, we can just screw into it and the screw will basically drill into the wood and become latched. However, that is not possible with metal. So once you have the objects to be combined together. What is the next step? Create thread (I believe the process for that is called tapping) and then put machine screw or bolt into it?

And finally, how do you know if you need to use CNC machine when you could just use sand paper or dremel tool or something portable to make finer adjustments?

[gewoon ik]

Fasting is done what you want : welding, bolting with nuts and bolts, self tapping screws design for metal, revets, ...

Shape from tubing (square, rectangle, round, ...) to profiles (anglebars, strips, hollandprofile, massive square, round, ...) or beams (I beams, H beams, ...).

Material itself can be steel, stainless steel, other kinds of different "blends" of steel.

So an easy or simple answer cannot be given. 

Ask on a forging forum how to make a bed and you will get different answers if you ask it on a welding forum. Or a machinist forum. All starting from different shapes and materials and all using different fasting methodes.

There is no good or wrong methode. Except if it fails in what it needs to be. If the bed falls apart if you put a matress on it, it is no good.

[NoGoodWithUsernames]

If you're making anything like that you'll more than likely be using bolts and a welder. What type of metal you use depends on what you are wanting to make. You don't build your floor out of 2x4s, you put a sheet of plywood down. The same goes for metal, pick a shape that works for what you are doing. Your question is too broad, there is no general "this is the right way" answer to what you are asking.

If I was making a bed frame I would use angle iron to hold the mattress just like a commercial bed frame with maybe square tubing for the legs. For an all metal box I would start with thin sheet material use a combination of cutting and bending and probably welding. The only time I've ever seen an all metal "desk" is a welding table. Most of the time you'll combine materials. Ex you'll make some legs with brackets that you can screw to the bottom of a wooden desk top.

Anything can of course be done with hand tools, electricity is a relatively recent thing. Of course by hand takes longer but hand drills and files and wrenches can make a lot of stuff. Add a welder and you can make almost anything with some creativity.

[gewoon ik]

You never seen all metal desks? At some point they where all cool. And by the time I see them, they end up as the dirty desk in a shop, warehouse or some place.

 

[NoGoodWithUsernames]

Sheet metal drawers with a cheap particleboard or pressboard top on it but never an all metal one. Wouldn't want to run your hip into the corner of one I'm sure. 

[Branding Iron]

Glad that’s sorted.  Now I can go build my barn out of those pine dowels and sheet my shed with those 8”x8” oak timbers I milled.  Just need to pick up the screws.  Hope I don’t need to buy a CNC machine to make the screws.

[LeeJustice]

5 hours ago, okhajut said:

I am talking about the metal work equivalent of planks of wood,

What you are asking is not so much blacksmithing, but more akin to an Ironworker, Sheet metal worker or steel fabricator.  All terms readily produce descriptions I think you will find to be most similar to what you are asking.

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard Okhajut, glad to have you. If you put your general location in the header you'll have a better chance of meeting up with members living within visiting distance. That way you can get demonstrations of some of the techniques used in metal work.

The questions you ask are too general for any kind of specific answer, metal working is just too broad a subject. It's almost asking a wood working site what kind of tree is best? There are just too many different situations, uses, construction techniques, etc. 

I'll touch on one that resembles building with lumber. My shop is what's called a "red iron steel building." It is literally a post and beam structure made entirely from steel. The picture below resembles my shop. Each member is usually bolted though can be welded in larger structures.

This type of metal work is VERY much like building with wood, except for joinery.

Things like furniture from beds to desks, chairs, tables, etc. can be made is too many different ways to list in a reasonable way. Many members here forge furniture elements which is heating the steel/iron and using a hammer deform it like clay in your hands. Elements are often bent into pleasing or sometimes whimsical shapes from scrolls or to resemble vines, perhaps seaweed, etc. Twisting is also a common technique. 

Furniture can also be "fabricated" which is using factory shape stock such as square tubing, angle iron and sheet metal, cut and welded or bolted or screwed to their desired shape, again similar to  lumber construction.

Metal is flexible and malleable meaning it is as versatile in shape as modeling clay but strong as steel allowing virtually anything limited only by the maker's skill  and imagination.

CNC is a tool control technology allowing humans to make multiple items rapidly without hands on involvement. And NO CNC metal work does NOT start with a solid square or round bar. It can but it can start from any shape or type of metal there is.

I've been making things from metal for almost 60 years and studying blacksmithing for a good portion of that and if I  studied it intensely for he rest of my life probably wouldn't be able to name everything let alone do them

Frosty The Lucky. 

[Jimw3326]

This is why I went with metal working instead of wood. It's much easier to fix it after you cut it off twice and it's still too short.

[George N. M.]

I'm late to the discussion but I would say the process of material selection for metal working is exactly the same as wood working.  The fabricator decides what is best for the end product based on use and cost.  A wood worker may decide to build a chair out of pine, oak, or ebony and the choice will depend on how heavy and strong the wood is, its appearance, and what the fabricator or customer can afford as well as availibility.  Then, there is the calculation of how much will be needed and what sizes are available in the workshop or for sale.  The exact process is the same for metal work.  Once the decision has been made on design and use the appropriate size stock will be procured.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[gewoon ik]

23 hours ago, NoGoodWithUsernames said:

Sheet metal drawers with a cheap particleboard or pressboard top on it but never an all metal one. Wouldn't want to run your hip into the corner of one I'm sure. 

ah ok.

They have rounded corners, bit like wood. Both hurt like xxxx.

The paint on the top worn out from use and cold in winter conditions and when outside or in a sunny position, you can burn yourself. And drawers that are stuck because they are overloaded (it is steel, i can put this heavy thing inside, till it is full)

[Scott NC]

  Search "Tanker Desk".  They don't make anything like they used to.

[BillyBones]

Maybe something is getting lost in translation but am i the only one who is having a problem understanding the original question? 

Anywho, as far as joinery goes basically the same as wood. Screws, nuts and bolts, nails (rivet), tenons, mortises and even dovetails (although usually used on parts that slide).  Our "nails" and tenons are generally mushroomed over to hold into place rather than just friction fit. I forgot weld which i would guess glue would be the closest in wood working. 

Choice of material, the same, I am not going to try and forge out a 6" x 6" lump of metal into a 1/2" square bar. Same as i would not take a 12" x 12" and try and cut it into 18 2"x4"s. I will get stock the closest that i can for the project at hand. Also like spindles for railing i will get preformed ones rather than try and turn down a bunch on the lathe, for soemthing like a metal building preformed sheet rather than try and bend each one individually on a brake. 

When to use CNC (or any machinery) over using hand tools or sand paper, when precision is required. You can not hold a .0005" tolerance with sand paper. Or when quantity is needed. For example last night at work i made 2700 parts, which is a small quantity for the machinery i run, with no tolerance greater than .005". Which is also a huge tolerance for me. We generally run at around .0015" tolerance. Again think like making a spindle that is turned on a lathe, you would not try and sand down by hand becuase they would turn out all wonky or drilling a hole for a bolt and i have even seen threads cut into wood. 

Basically wood working and metal working are quite close to each other with a lot of overlap in the tools used and the methods used. 

[George N. M.]

Billy, because I am more of a metal worker than a wood worker when I am working in wood I find myself wanting to use metal techniques and tools.  I have to remind myself, "No, you can't get that piece of wood hot and bend it into the shape you want." and "You can't square up the shoulders of that little tenon with a monkey tool."  Wood workers who are using metal probably have the reverse mental process.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[Charles R. Stevens]

Yes you can, lol 

[swedefiddle]

You can get the Stick hot in a box that is heated with a Kettle of water, then bend it. Or you can boil a barrel of Water, poke your stick into it for a minute, then bend it. MAGIC!! That is how wooden wheels are created. Rocking Chairs, Planks on a Boat, etc.

Neil

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

I have used steam to bend wood also.

[anvil]

There are a number of things we can do with steel that can't be done with wood. Primarily we can change its crossection without adding or removing material. We can upset it. This means it will get fatter and shorter. We can draw it out. This means it gets thinner and longer. Think playing with clay. We can do the same with holes. We can make holes without drilling and removing material. We can slit it, then upset it by hammering on an end. This opens up the hole, then drift it to the size we want. As an example, we can make a half inch hole in a piece of material half inch wide and have a quarter inch material all around the hole. 

These are just a few examples. 

[ThomasPowers]

Blacksmithing can be like pottery; you can make things by moving the mass around. You can add mass or subtract mass but mainly you can modify the cross section without removing or adding stock.    Fab work is like carpentry.

[Charles R. Stevens]

Dry heat also can be used to bend wood, it can be hardened and under the right conditions welded.