Stumped with tongs...

[Dewnmoutain]

attempting to make some tongs...and im stumped.

I watched black bear forge's video on making square tongs to get an idea as to how to make tongs. Looked easy enough, a notch in a few locations and some hammering, viola. And i did that....but now i hit a snag.

Ive made a few sets of the business ends of tongs as practice, and keep running into the same issue. They line up well, but when i go through the motion of closing the jaws togwther, they snag on the metal left over. Looking at the picture, hopefully, you can see where the metal curves and interferes with the action.

Sure, i could take a file and file away this metal and get them to close, but watching black bears vid, along with others, they dont. They just hammer it and it lines up. Now i get it, they have years of experience and this shows in the vids. For me though, im trying to figure out where/how the hammer blows are supposed to go to get that final shape where it lines up and closes properly. Id rather hammer it than spend time filing it that last bit. 

Hopefully this makes sense...

[Chris C]

It can be corrected at the anvil....................but a good file does a great job also.  Just get rid of the offending metal. 

[ThomasPowers]

If you are basing it on a video; shoot they could send it out to a machine shop on the other side of the world and still have it look like it was all one go---it's called editing...

Now to clean up your work---are you using a flatter or set to make the transition better?   I generally true things up with the hammer and then clean up hot rasping.  If your anvil doesn't have an appropriate edge you can make a hardy tool with the one you need.  Starting out you will probably not have the hammer control to do a good transition so it's much easier to use a set tool or edge of the anvil or both!

Shoot I've been smithing for 39 years now and I like using a top tool and my screwpress to clean up the pivot area on tongs!

[Frazer]

IMHO, John's videos are not among the channels that would hide elements of the process in editing. They may not say every single detail out loud during the whole process (they are long form enough without that) but as far as purposefully hiding something, it's less likely. Jennifer's videos are the same way.

Two things regarding this issue, as it's something I run into often. That area is the most strongly supported section when doing your second isolation at 45 degrees for the boss. This makes the angle between the boss and the jaws of the tongs you're making want to twist out of square (not what you're talking about in this case, but it can be). It also means it's easy to ignore that area where the two transitions meet, which needs a little extra attention to get into place.

The best advice I can offer is to line up that transition sightly forward of where you want it (~1/8" toward the jaw) then with a solid grip make the boss. You shouldn't need to do any filing or grinding or anything to remove that material, although I suppose you could if you want to. For this pair in particular, since you can't really go backward, after riveting the two halves together, opening and closing the two halves (while hot) should round off that interference enough to make them work fine. You might have to tighten up the rivet afterward, but they'll still work.

If they're still separate pieces, I like TP's suggestion of using a top tool to flatten that spot.

Tongs are a tricky little job, they're fun and very useful, but tricky sometimes.

[pnut]

Simplified instructions. 

Pnut

[ThomasPowers]

Note that a chainsaw file can help clean up that area if they are already riveted.

[Francis Trez Cole]

there are so many great references out there. When making the Jaw,Boss,and rein transition keep your work so that you do not hammer on the side that was against the anvil. there is a fine line between hammered out and finished. check the edges of the anvil  that you are using. Also while you are hammering the Boss out increase your angle from 45 to 60 that will round up that inside corner. I always clean up my boss with a  file before final assembly. 

[swedefiddle]

Good Morning, Dew

If you look at the pictures Pnut posted, area marked "C". The tongs are at a 30 to 45 degree angle on the far side of the Anvil. When you make your 'half-faced' blows, you are defining the angle where the inside of the jaws come together. This function is what make tongs useable or not.

The School of Hard Knocks, is in session. Good Luck!!
 

Neil

[TheWanderingLlama]

As a beginner, I feel guilty about having to use non-forging “corrective measures” on the things I have made.  I do my best to figure out what went wrong and fix it at the anvil.  Sometimes the fix is just beyond my skill level and I break out the file, drill, or (gasp) grinder and touch it up.  That is just part of the learning cycle.

For something like tongs which are a necessary tool, I am more apt to resort to whatever means possible to get a functional pair of tongs. I need them to continue learning other things and tongs are a challenging piece for me now.  It is still important to learn what went wrong, but at times it may be OK to take the easy way out.

My first pair of tongs has drilled holes and a bolt for a rivet.  I practiced punching holes and realized that if I did that I would likely mangle my tongs with my current skill level.  If I would have tried to complete them on the anvil they would have ended up a tangled wreck - instead - they are an ugly but useful set of tongs.

Same with the hardy tools I made recently, there was zero forging involved.  Forging would have been the “right way” to do it - but a big job for me right now in both time/skill/stamina.  Because it was a bit further up the skill ladder for me and I needed the tooIs - I went to work with hacksaw, file, and grinder and got the job done. I learned more from that experience then simply buying them, so I still came out ahead.

That is just my two-cents.  Forging is definitely a humbling activity...

[ThomasPowers]

Interesting; blacksmiths were early adapters of arc welding and "Practical Blacksmithing" written in the 1880's/90's has several articles in it about making drilling equipment.  Perhaps the "traditional" blacksmith wasn't so stuck on "only hammer and anvil" as some folks think.   (Read "Mechanics Exercises" Moxon, written in the 1680's and published 1703.  He discusses using more than just hammer and anvil; particularly for things like the clockwork turnspit!)

[Francis Trez Cole]

I would agree with Thomas. Leonardo De Vinci created a power hammer. There is time for being a purest But you are learning the more you do the better you will get.

 

[ThomasPowers]

Well the earliest tilt hammer I've had documentation on was the 900's, (Personal Communication, Medieval Technology Conference, Penn State); so Da Vinci was 500+ years later.  I've also seen a recent version made of his hammer for dishing sheet metal for armour.  It worked; but was so slow  they added screen door springs to accelerate the down stoke as it wasn't hitting before the revolution caught it---or it was so slow they were better off hand hammering.

I think we have things like "A World Lit Only by Fire" to blame for the non-mechanized history view,  "De Re Metallica" is full of ingenious machinery!

Forging is the right way to do it---IFF it speeds up your work and you can do it without causing problems.  When someone went to the smith they didn't say---"Can you do it all by hand?" More likely they said "Can you use your powerhammer so I can get it by tomorrow after lunch?"

Yes there are bragging rights involved showing off your skills at being able to do precision forging by hand---that does NOT make it the "right way" to do things; just one way of doing it.

[Chris C]

I'm beginning to realize that, Thomas.  I've been so hung up on the "traditional" that I failed to realize blacksmiths "of old", as well as modern blacksmiths are just people who seem to find a way to "git'er done" no matter what it takes.  "The end justifies the means", I've come to realize.  So I don't feel so guilty when I have to reach for a file to get rid of something "in the way" when checking the function of new tongs.  It's quicker than firing up the forge and hammering the offending bump out of the way.

[ThomasPowers]

Well even "traditional" blacksmiths sometimes did bragging pieces to show off---shoot the guilds required a "Master Piece" after all; but especially here in "frontier" America; Blacksmithing was basically a job.  The rise of "Artist Blacksmiths" may have something to do with changing how smithing is viewed.  I note a lot of the, hmm how to put it, "Propwash" in knifemaking that goes with folks trying to sell stuff to make a living and make their stuff seem *special*!  "Forged in the dark of the moon and quenched in blood" sort of things. Perhaps the Arts & Crafts movement pushed the non-intrinsic virtues of smithing onto our perceptions of smithing. 

I will even say it's a good idea to do a "Bragging Piece" from time to time to try to up your game; it will reflect in your regular work as previously difficult techniques become "easy" for you.  (When doing historical cooking equipment I tend to use a lot of forge welds as that was what was done and it's easy...)

[Chris C]

Gotchya.  I try and make everything I create...........no matter the end use...........to be a bragging piece.  But that doesn't always happen.  When it doesn't, it reminds me of what my old furniture making mentor told me.  He said something along the lines of "The reputation of a furniture builder isn't based on how 'perfect' every piece is, it's based on how professionally he can cover up his mistakes".   I've seen a lot of dovetails cut by well known historical furniture builders that have a "sliver" spacer in them to make the joint tighter.  Good materials were too precious to scrap because of a minor slip with the chisel.  Quaker furniture builders would always have a minor imperfection in their work...........even if they had to put it there intentionally, because only God is perfect.

[anvil]

Lol, first time I've ever heard that using a file means you aren't "traditional".  

Out of the mouth of babes.  

[ThomasPowers]

Shall we debate Blacksmiths and Whitesmiths based on file use?

I will admit that the clockwork spit project in "Mechanicks Exercises" is more of a whitesmith item. But it is included in the blacksmithing section written in the last half of the 17th century!

[anvil]

Lol, if blacksmiths had never invented files, there may never have been any machinists!  

I think primordal machinists were those nitch blacksmiths who decided moving iron was too much work, so decided to specialize in stock removal!  

I've even got a source for this theory,,, the ring in me ears!!! 

[Frosty]

I can't remember the name of the book and it's buried is a box in the basement so I can't cite it. However I'll talk about the earliest "power" hammers I'm aware of, date unknown but probably maybe BC. in China. The larger than man hammer started out pumping probably more accurately "lifting" water ad consisted of a wooden lever with a bucket on one end. pull down on the bucket end pull the other when it's full, tip the water out, lather rinse repeat. That evolved into a large beam, maybe just a log and the operators (power) were people walking back and forth on the beam. the "Walking Beam." 

There are early references to walking beams used to felt wool, pulp wood/cloth to make paper and later crush ore or clay. And later still hammer metal. How long would it take humans who already had the water wheel in common use think of marrying the two machines? IIRC earliest use of the water wheel was to lift irrigation water. 

How about just picking a time period and location/culture's technology you wish to work within? 

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

One thing that people forget is that a large range of technologies can and do exist in parallel.  I mean today we have rockets as well as oxcarts still being used. Sailing ships and nuclear submarines. Induction forges and charcoal forges...

[Dewnmoutain]

Well i ended up saying "xxxxxx it" and pulled out the file. Tongs work fine. Was trying to figure out why though my lines didnt line up to make it easier to for the tongs to actuate. Thomaspowers brought up an excellent question about the edge of my anvil...and yeah, the edge is a mess. When i got the anvil it had big chunks and gouges on the edge, so i had repaired it with welding. I had repaired it to a point where at the time i was happy to have a somewhat better edge to the anvil. It wasnt perfect. And i think that has translated to my work. When i set a shoulder, its not a nice looking "crisp" shoulder, its more of a rounded shoulder. I think this is a source of my issue. Setting the shoulder isnt clean, so it leaves this uneveness to the material. And so i have to use the file to remove more material to get that crisp edge for the shoulder. TP also stated making a hardie tool to set the shoulder on, and yeah i have one of those, but it didnt come out right on a test piece i did. Thinking back on it, i think my issue with that tool was it bounced alot, so i couldnt get a good consistent connection between edge and material. 

So, three things ive learned

1) look into redressing my anvil

2) its ok to file

3) athe term whitesmith.

[anvil]

Actually doing some filing on your tongs is not white smithing. Do a search to see what it means. Usually that means the whole piece had been filed to a "white" finish as opposed to a "black" finish blacksmiths do. 

There are some beautiful whitesmith's works out there.

[BillyBones]

I always figured "traditional" blacksmiths would use what ever tool made the jobs easy and quick. These were people that earned a living in their forge to put food on the table for their children. The quicker and easier a job the more money they would make. So no tool is taboo in the shop. It would be kind of a kin for a modern carpenter to only use a hammer and a hand saw while shunning a circular saw or nail gun. 

[CrazyGoatLady]

I used to hate filing and felt that if I were a better smith, I wouldn't have to file. Over time though, I came to actually enjoy filing. Especially in artistic pieces. Don't get me wrong, I avoid it if I can because it's time consuming and I have very little of that to spare. But it can sure refine a piece very nicely and no shame in it

[JHCC]

A good, sharp file makes all the difference. Dull files are purgatorial at best.