Is it over ?

[SmoothBore]

13 minutes ago, Frosty said:

Why, are older anvils better tools, is it experience?

Frosty The Lucky.

Well, ... sure.

My head cheerleader assures me, ... that I "swing my hammer" with far greater skill than I did 30 years ago.  

[Marc1]

Interesting you say that Frosty ... I have been saying that for a few decades. You can buy a new Refflinghaus for some 15 Euros a kilo yet someone decides that an older beaten up one is worth 30 Euro a kilo.

Collectors? It's a different hobby Thomas, a hobby that is hard to understand and one that psychologists have written about. I wouldn't let it bother me. Ever heard of "wine collectors"?, now there is a odd one if there ever was an odd thing to collect. What do you collect if you don't ever taste it? Your faith in the legitimacy of a label?

Having said that, the price hike  does not bother me one bit. It is called supply and demand. If the demand outstrips the supply the prices go up. There is no logic to it, no point reasoning over it, no point pointing fingers to the uneducated consumer nor attempt to educate him or her. There is only the fact that something commands a price because there is someone willing to pay for it. 

Properties in Sydney have duplicated their price every 10 years or so for the last 60 years. Folks (who don't have a property) don't like this, Politician like grandstanding with large gestures about it, journos write feverishly about it using the term "affordability" ( I confess to laugh loudly every time I see this word), and the lefties of this world, love to blame the investors for it. Speculators they say .... Yet the fact remains that in a free market and unless you want to follow Cuba, the price is set by the consumer. And so it is with blacksmithing tools. The simile with the hip displasia german shepherds is not a good one. That particular genetic defect has been bred out of the gene pool a while ago by the german shepherd associations that actually care. 

And as far as what you say on new vs recycled steel, you are of course correct yet you are leaving out important aspects of what is attractive to a new person taking up a hobby. To me blacksmithing has always been a job. It is only now that I pick up a bit here and there for fun and for old time sake. A person that has never done this, decides to start based on the little information he collects from demonstrations, museums, media or friends or TV shows and the fact that he can do so with little money. That includes beating up scrap for no money at all. I would like to know how many people have given up because they encountered an odd piece of unusual steel ... probably not that many. There has been probably many more giving up discouraged by criticism.

I think ... and that is only my take on the subject ... that for some, an influx of interested people in any pursuit that is dear to them feels  like a threat. All of a sudden it is not that little known subject most folks know nothing about, but it is now something others talk about, and some of the talk is perhaps nonsense and some is odd, and some we know to be wrong, and we think we need to deal with it.

I say let it be.

The valuable people will grow, the others will grow out of it. We (and i humbly count myself among the older generation) are all richer for it.

[straycat_74]

I tried a RR-track anvil and was NOT happy with the results. my first "real" anvil cost double the "going rate per lbs" but was, I believe, well worth the money.

first it's at least older than 1880 based on the markings, second it's in decent enough condition for a VERY used anvil

and lastly, I've ALWAYS wanted a 'REAL' Anvil.
granted, I could have bought a new one thru HD for $800+, but I didn't HAVE the extra $300 to spend at the time.

could a GOOD smith do Good work on a RR-track? probably, but I'm not there yet, not even remotely close...

better tools, less garbage to blame for when you mess up, cause a tool THAT expensive obviously CANNOT be the problem

:3

[gote]

13 hours ago, Frosty said:

 

Popularity has run up the price of blacksmithing tools, the older and rustier the more valuable. How many folk ask here to ID their anvils and how old they are. Why, are older anvils better tools, is it experience? 

 

I do not think ALL of those asking abut their anvils are asking because they want to sell it. They want to know if they have been cheated. Also they may have learnt from someone that Söderfors is the ultimate one and hope they have got one, Blacksmithing is a trade with historical roots and it is a good feeling to know that a main tool is old enough to be called an antique. In this part of the world, the limit is 100 years so a lot of you guys are using an antique the way this type of antique should be used.

Old tools may be better than new. I cannot afford to use Japanese handcrafted chisels (wood working) so I use the next best. Old second hand ones made in Esklistuna - older than myself in fact. They take a much better edge and hold it better than any new one (Chinese?) that I can afford to buy.

I cannot understand those people who misuse old equipment as garden ornaments. I want a sculpture or a beautiful urn in my garden.

By the way some may hope to be able to tell the domestic Goddess that they made a brilliant buy

[lanternnate]

As one of the noobs who uses scrap steel, I'd wager there is a bit of context that is important in the discussion. I have a lot of respect for those of you that have a level of craftsmanship to do this as a business, but I also know full well that isn't me. My career years have been spent learning my "trade" behind a computer keyboard not an anvil. I now have a really well paying job doing so that provides well for my family. It can also be an incredibly stressful career. For me this is something I do to escape that stress. It's a hobby for me and like any other hobby what I spend on it needs to fall within what I can justify spending on my own personal enjoyment vs spending on the house, kids, etc. Cheap railroad spikes and free worn out lawnmower blades mean I can justify more time enjoying myself at the anvil, and not feeling too discouraged when I make a mess of things (which is most of the time still). If folks are trying to make a business out of it I completely understand the quality in quality out concept as well as the notion of repeatability and efficiency of using known elements. Who knows, down the line I might get good enough I want to be able to give something as a gift to someone that is more than a novelty, and I might need to figure out the nuances of better steel at that point. Right now I'm still working on the hammer hitting what I meant to hit, I'm not sure I'd even be able to tell the difference between two unmarked known steels if you had me hit them back to back. That's a really long winded way of saying there are differences between doing something as a professional trade for a living and doing something as a hobby for enjoyment. I know there's probably even folks somewhere along a sliding scale between hobby and business. With that in mind, from steel to tools there likely isn't one right answer, just what's right for that individual at that time. Oh and yes you can blame "the show" for this guy being reminded of something he had dreamed of doing as a kid but now had the monetary capability to actually try to do

[ThomasPowers]

Steel is cheap bought brand new from a steel dealer.  *Much* cheaper than time for nearly everyone.  I have run into a lot of people that basically have told me "I wasted 10 hours of time on an unknown steel that would have cost me US$2 to purchase new known stock".  Few of them are willing to tell their employer they would be willing to work for 20 cents an hour...

Last year I bought 200 pieces of 1/2" square stock A-36 22" long as drops for US$10.  I've been giving it away to my students for project material.  Steel is cheap.  Now you can chose to find expensive ways to buy it but that is not a problem with the material...

[Marc1]

I have a veggie patch in an enclosure to keep the cockies out. In it a few boxes of veggies and some 5 citrus trees. They flower very well yet bare no fruits but for the lemon tree.

I called up a horticulturist who told me I had to add potash to the ground, water daily, buy a beehive or do the pollination by hand with a brush flower by flower, spray eco oil for black pest and suck the stink bugs up with a vacuum cleaner ... and some few more things that escape my mind just now ... and yes, I am going to do just that, despite the fact that a bag of oranges, lime, mandarins and cumquat, can be bought for cheap when in season ... and no risk of getting stung by bees in the process.

And more to the point, the post before Thomas sort of supports my point. A TV show or a computer game that prompts people to talk blacksmithing, is a positive even if it is not right in many points, not historically accurate and even if it teaches the wrong thing.  Did you know hat the pictures of perfectly roasted chicken in TV shows is actually not cooked at all but gets flamed with a propane torch to get the right colour? That does not stop folks to decide to have a go at roasting a bird ...

[Frosty]

Most of the gang knows this but just in case you don't, I'm a hobbyist with occasional lapses meaning, sure, I'll take money for that!

Using salvage is part of the fun of the craft and I don't discourage it. What I advise is limiting the number of learning curves a person tries climbing at once. I live in Alaska where shipping about doubles the price of everything and a stick of 3/8" sq. is about $20.00. It's a good size to learn with, enough mass to hold heat for more than a couple blows but is thin enough to move reasonably well for minimum effort. Believe me minimum effort is a good thing till you get some good hammer technique.

You only have ONE thing to trade in life, time and that's in limited supply. Most folk would think I'm nuts for how I've spent mine so far. Enjoy.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Marc1]

Yes, time is precious.

So if someone gets discouraged from starting something he would like to, and then decides he will give it a try 10 years later, he has actually wasted 10 years ... so to speak. 

I can't believe your name is Frosty and you live in Alaska ...

[gote]

Steel is cheap even if you cannot get drops for free (=a sixpack) I pay 26 SEK/Kg regardless of wether it is a drop or not. If they have to cut for me (6m bars are awkward in my transport) there is another 30SEK. A SEK is approximately 10 US cents, I use that stuff most of the time because I can start on a known material of the right dimensions. However,  here it is definitely a sales argument that something is made from recycled material. That most steel is already recycled is not something the general public is aware of,

[SmoothBore]

17 hours ago, Marc1 said:

your name is Frosty and you live in Alaska ...

I have it on good authority, ... that Frosty actually lives at the North Pole, ..........

 

 

 

......... with Santa and Rudolph.   

 

 

.

[Daswulf]

[swedefiddle]

Good Morning,

" Frosty with your nose so bright............"

I think there is a song about that!!!!! LOL

No nose pickin' allowed, that is the volume screw.............Brightness Screw........... 'Screwing it up!!!!'  LOL

Merry Almost,

Neil

[ThomasPowers]

Actually the character in popular culture was based on Frosty and was thought up after a long night if BBQ'd mammoth and *special* mushrooms.

(And I've actually seen Burl Ives live...back in the 60's when he was the entertainment for the annual Bellcom picnic.)

[JHCC]

1 hour ago, ThomasPowers said:

Actually the character in popular culture was based on Frosty and was thought up after a long night if BBQ'd mammoth and *special* mushrooms.

(And I've actually seen Burl Ives live...back in the 60's when he was the entertainment for the annual Bellcom picnic.)

I'm no fan of Burl-esque. 

[ThomasPowers]

Have you heard him doing folksongs and not the TV drivel?

[Latticino]

9 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said:

Have you heard him doing folksongs and not the TV drivel?

Fond memories of listening to him singing seafaring songs when I was a youth.  He had a marvelous voice.

[JHCC]

31 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said:

Have you heard him doing folksongs and not the TV drivel?

No, I haven't. I'll try to check it out. Anything to drive out the drivel.

[notownkid]

I heard him sing a group of Christmas Songs recently and he did a great job and I don't like Christmas songs before Christmas week. 

I've heard Frosty is impossible to contact on Christmas Eve and his wife says he is "traveling" then.  Hum! don't suppose?

 

[GoodThing Factory]

 

these days mild steel is pretty cheap - a full length of 3/4" square 1018 goes for about $20 here in NY -  plus they'll even throw in a few cuts at no charge to make it more manageable to transport. as a beginner that much stock should keep you busy for a while so need to need to settle for mystery metal. 

for higher carbon steels which can be more expensive and harder to come by a nice coil of spring will do the trick and for the most part you know what you're getting.  that said, just picking through a pile to find steel for a blade, striking tool or hammer is not a great idea - at least in my experience.