How do I proceed with a wounded anvil

[stockmaker]

I would like some advice on how I should proceed with this anvil that I just acquired this week.  It is special to me for two reasons.

                1.  It was given to me by relatives, they hauled it out of my late uncle's basement where it sat for decades.

                2. It is my only anvil other than a 86lb Fisher that was badly abused at some point in its life.

The anvil is a 238lb Peter Wright.  As you can see from the photo's it was broken in two at the waist.  It was welded at the break with 1" pin's installed internally, I can see them in the forging holes front and rear.  The weld is cracked 3/4 around the waist.   I am going to guess the repair to the wrought iron was done more than fifty years ago with an Ox/Ac welder.  

Ring is muted, or missing altogether.  There is some ring at the front 3" and the rear 3" of the face. Rebound is 90% at the front and rear of the face, and all over the place in the middle going from 90% to 70% depending where the ball is dropped.  Rebound at the shelf and the horn is around 50%.   The face is fairly flat with only a 1/16" or less sag in the middle, there is a slight crown at the rear of the face in the hardy hole area. 

I used it yesterday for the first time making a pull handle for a shutter and loved it, but I am not sure how to proceed?  Should I keep looking for an anvil, should I try to get it repaired again, and would that do any good,  or should I not even be using it?

[the iron dwarf]

nice looking anvil, if its holding together use it, that weld is just on the surface and it really needs to go deep to make a proper repair

[Frosty]

Agree, it's an early arc weld with little penetration. The unwelded center is where your rebound is being damped. She's a beauty I wouldn't mess with the weld unless it breaks  completely.

A gas weld on material that heavy would be much smoother, wider and deeper you have to actually melt the parent material so you have to heat more farther from the joint. Definitely not a gas weld.

Frosty The Lucky.

[stockmaker]

Iron Dwarf and Frosty, thanks for the reply.  I will use it with no reservations!

[Black Frog]

I sold a PW that had the same problem that I got at an auction for rather cheap.  It was fully cracked in half at the waist.  Even though it was cracked, it had exceptional rebound.   The buyer had a welder friend, and we talked about a fix.  What he did was grind a deep V groove all around the waist following the crack line.  Preheated the anvil a bit, being careful of the face temps.  Welded the V groove, and the anvil is as good as new.

[George Geist]

10 minutes ago, Black Frog said:

I sold a PW that had the same problem that I got at an auction for rather cheap.  It was fully cracked in half at the waist.  Even though it was cracked, it had exceptional rebound.   The buyer had a welder friend, and we talked about a fix.  What he did was grind a deep V groove all around the waist following the crack line.  Preheated the anvil a bit, being careful of the face temps.  Welded the V groove, and the anvil is as good as new.

Did he Tig the root before stick welding the groove? Just curious as to how they did it.

George

[Black Frog]

That I do not know.  We talked about the grind and weld, and I saw a picture of it once it was finished, he was very happy.

[VaughnT]

I wouldn't be uncomfortable having a competent welding grind out the crack and backfill with good rod.  Pre-heat and post-heat would be advised, and I'd be sure to have the anvil upside down on a metal table so there'd be no chance of damaging the heat-treat of the face.

Lots of anvils were made in two parts, top and bottom, and then welded together at the waist.  

Of course, if it's working right now, there's plenty of forging you can get done before the weld fails completely.  Use it until the last possible moment.... then repair it and continue using it.  As a family heirloom, she deserves nothing less.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Let's see. You have an anvil with 70%-90% rebound , and it doesn't ring like a bell........don't mess with it.  Seriously, having a quiet anvil like my Fisher is a fantastic quality to have. 

[BeaverNZ]

Yes I would just use it till it breaks and if I was going to repair it I would take the chill of it grind or carbon arc out the weld prep and use flux cored weld to weld it up. It should succesfully as it should be a low carbon steel or wrought which should weld ok with that process Cheers Beaver

 

[Marc1]

The weld seems to have cracked for the most part already. I am not sure why the reluctance to fix it. 

Sure needs to be done properly, but a PW deserves better than being kept broken in two like that.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

As I mentioned earlier, 70%-90% rebound and no ring is a plus in my book.

[ThomasPowers]

I'd say more likely the weld failed rather than the anvil was broken  As later made anvils of other brands were sometimes arc welded instead of forge welded at the waist I'd not be concerned, save that the lack of ring probably means it's not a full penetration weld and DEFINITELY not worth the effort to redo it unless it fails again!

[stockmaker]

All, thanks for commenting on my post, I appreciate it.  I have been using the anvil for two months now and love having it, I am now a Peter Wright fan.  I have not yet addressed the crack but plan to "someday" soon .  The crack has not changed as far as I can see, I have only used 2lb-3lb hammers on 3/4" or less stock.   Although I have forged two hardy hole shanks which is 1 1/4" stock, that was the hardest work the anvil had to endure.   I do go lightly when pounding on the horn.   The reason I want to fix the crack now is almost purely aesthetics,  having an anvil with an ugly weld and a crack all the way around it bugs the heck out of me.   Anyway that is where I am on this family member.

[ironwolfforgeca]

come the day you do repair that anvil I would use 7018 arc rod Or a better rod for that 110-18 same rod just better !

No reason to have a welder Tig it for a root pass

Prep as suggested earlier on this page weld some on one side then flip weld some on the other side continue doing that till done

Steve's Welding & Fab

[tanglediver]

I concur on the stick process, 7018 is a good bet. Prep should include grinding out the crack as much as possible, preheat and possibly postheat as well, keeping mindful of the face temps. The waist needs to be heated evenly though.

What I see there is boogered stick weld that was hiding existing cracks. Once a crack starts, ... nothing will stop it.

[ausfire]

Pity about the waist, but gee, she's got a nice face.

[bubba682]

I would v out the crack with a grinder to a bout a 1/2 '' both sides and deep as well.Then i would tack it on all four sides first the run pass's by goin oppisite sides one pass at  a time so it doses'nt pull out of square and repeat this till its welded out.7018 is not the rod for cast , i think its a 152 cast rod i cant remember the brand name . You'll get out of using a pre and post heat it digs l;ike 6011 and use's the same heat.They work great on cast I would also sweat the crack out just enough to get the moisture out when your tackin about 200 degrees.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

To vee it out I would look at a scarfing tip for an OA torch, or see if someone has a carbon arc torch. Much faster.

As to welding, .0625" innershield through a MIG would make short work of that project. At the community college a friend made an anvil by welding up 2" thick plates with that set up. He was laying down beads as wide as my thumb. Since it is only the base, I would not worry about any pre or post heating other than making sure the top plate stays cool.

Bubba, it is not cast iron

[bubba682]

MY mistake there BGD i was under the impression that the old anvils were cast iron bases so what is the age of the anvil.So now that its not cast yeah gouge it and weld it but innersheild yuck thats like burning 6010 forever lol.

[tanglediver]

It's not cast iron, and it's not mild steel. It's wrought iron.

I've never welded wrought iron, even after completing my A.S. in welding. I have some 100 year old fence picket ends I could practice on sometime though. It's all about choosing THE best rod type. Personally I would not put any wire fed process to work on that repair. There is no production schedule to keep. You got all the time in the world to get it right, good luck!

[bubba682]

WATS A.S. welding stand for tanglediver ,i never welded  wrought iron we dont see it in industrial work at least i havn't and ive welded in just about every industrial type job out there in the last 27 yrs.

[tanglediver]

Associate of Science degree, a.k.a. 2 year degree. We welded lots of different metals for familiarization, never wrought iron.

[ThomasPowers]

*Old* anvils were made up to almost 2000 years or so before cast iron was a used material in Western Europe.   Real wrought iron was the standard from the start of the iron age----minus the odd meteorite used as an anvil... up until after cast steel was the next great thing in the 1700's.  In the 1800's  a method of casting cast iron onto a steel face plate was patented and used to make Fisher and Vulcan anvils. Towards the end of the 19th century and into the early 20th century cast steel bases were forge welded to regular uppers and later to cast high carbon steel uppers and some completely cast high carbon steel anvils were produced---so you could have a wide spread of processes used to make anvils happening simultaneously by different makers in different locations.

Since cast iron and cast steel and cast steel the material, (used for faces),  were all used at some time or another on anvils; just using the term "cast" isn't very good for specifying which material you are actually referring to.

[bubba682]

On 1/3/2017 at 5:12 PM, ThomasPowers said:

*Old* anvils were made up to almost 2000 years or so before cast iron was a used material in Western Europe.   Real wrought iron was the standard from the start of the iron age----minus the odd meteorite used as an anvil... up until after cast steel was the next great thing in the 1700's.  In the 1800's  a method of casting cast iron onto a steel face plate was patented and used to make Fisher and Vulcan anvils. Towards the end of the 19th century and into the early 20th century cast steel bases were forge welded to regular uppers and later to cast high carbon steel uppers and some completely cast high carbon steel anvils were produced---so you could have a wide spread of processes used to make anvils happening simultaneously by different makers in different locations.

Since cast iron and cast steel and cast steel the material, (used for faces),  were all used at some time or another on anvils; just using the term "cast" isn't very good for specifying which material you are actually referring to.

THxs for the info i like learnin somthing new everyday i never seen alot of real wrought iron except at the fortress of Louisbourg they employed alot of blacksmiths there in the 60/70's to help rebuild alot of the old iron works of the fort.The forge there is right out of the history books its somethin to see.