jacbow2 Posted September 17, 2016 Share Posted September 17, 2016 So I'm making a tomahawk with a high carbon bit in between low carbon steel. As you can see in the picture the steel hasn't completely welded together. Should I just put it back in The forge and try a few more times? Is there anything I should do before that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thief_Of_Navarre Posted September 17, 2016 Share Posted September 17, 2016 I've only forge welded once before so take anything I say with a pinch of salt. You'll need more than a few heats at welding temp (hotter than forging temp) to forge weld. Plenty of flux while heated in between hammering and it should come good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 17, 2016 Share Posted September 17, 2016 How many times did you "set" the weld before refining it? Do you know how to tell if a weld has set? If a person has to think in numbers, set it twice before taking your first refining heat. Brush, flux and bring to welding heat, soak to make sure it's to temperature through out then use moderate but solid blows, do NOT hit it hard or you can bounce the join faces apart or slide them shearing the join. If you're welding a wide lap, start the blows in the center strike overlapping blows from end to end then strike overlapping blows in the same direction on the edges or until you reach the edges. You can make these blows alternating from edge to edge but maintain the direction of travel. This helps prevent "inclusions) trapping debris in the weld. To test if a weld has set simply lay one side on the anvil and watch it cool. If it loses color evenly across the weld it has taken and is ready for refinement. If however there is a sharp line between the halves, black against the anvil and red above the weld line it has NOT set. Reset the weld, brush, flux and bring to welding temp with soak time. Repeat setting procedure. Once the weld has set refine it to the desired shape at WELDING TEMP. Wait till you're refining the weld to forge it on edge. Forging on edge to test the set is testing to destruction. The above test is a good preliminary test using the heat sink of the anvil before moving to the more aggressive and risky edge forging. This just minimizes risk. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmoothBore Posted September 18, 2016 Share Posted September 18, 2016 Although these comments won't help you solve your problem, I think that they are still appropriate, ... in a general sense. One of the things that seems to "slip through the cracks" in the way we think about forge welding, ... is that the process was developed and intended for use on wrought iron, ... not steel. The practice of "steeling" cutting tools, involved welding relatively mild steel into wrought-iron. While the practice of forge welding tool steel into mild steel is commonly done, ... it can be, ... and often is, ... very demanding. Yes, it's an interesting process to dabble in, but under the best of circumstances, results are still unpredictable. We all experiment with arcane practices, ... just because we can. And that's a good thing. But I think it's wrongheaded to tell yourself that forge welding a piece of tool steel into a piece of mild steel "duplicates" traditional tool-making. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Turley Posted September 18, 2016 Share Posted September 18, 2016 Can't tell much from your picture. That weld is commonly a cleft weld, sometimes called a "bird's mouth." The mild steel is split and each split end width is tapered. I open the split a bit and use a ball peen at the anvil edge. The tool steel is tapered on one length so you have a rough triangular cross section. This steel is going to be somewhat wider and longer than the cleft. The tool steel taper is made ragged on edge by using a hot cut repeatedly and diagonally along its length. This gives gripability when the room- temp 'bit' is driven into the red hot cleft. I find it easier to squeeze the sandwich together in the vise than to hammer on them before welding. At a welding heat, NO SPARKS, use moderate backing-up blows to better seat the bit and to perhaps squeeze a little undesirable soup out the edges. Then hit on the flat, center of blade first, then toward one corner. Hit the middle again and work toward the other corner. It might take several welding heats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SReynolds Posted September 18, 2016 Share Posted September 18, 2016 I learned today , at a tractor show/swap meet/flea market you cannot weld high carbon steel as you loose all high carbon steel properties when you weld it. I was quite taken back by that as the guy who is selling machine shop lathe tools and lathes told me that when I asked about buying lathe bits. I mean; if your in the machine shop trade and work with carbon steels.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 Yeah, tell Steve and the other knife makers that create pattern welded blades that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 On 9/18/2016 at 9:58 PM, Charles R. Stevens said: Yeah, tell Steve and the other knife makers that create pastern welded blades that... I was wondering about that too Charles. How long ago were smiths in India and the mid east forge welding honest to goodness Damascus, not to mention the Vikings, Japanese, Koreans, Chinese and . . . Oh nevermind. Lathe cutters are high speed steel and from what I hear hard to weld just like my experience trying to can weld drill bits. Keep your fire carburizing and your steel fluxed and HC steel won't decarb. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McPherson Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 Arc welding of tool steels can be tricky, especially if you don't know anything about preheating and post-weld heat treatment. There is a definite learning curve when dealing with wrought iron, mild steel, high carbon steel, and modern tool steel alloys. As a former member of this forum said: "Some folks get 20 years of knowledge and experience, others just get one year repeated twenty times." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SReynolds Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 I second that. On both accounts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gote Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 16 hours ago, SReynolds said: I learned today , at a tractor show/swap meet/flea market you cannot weld high carbon steel as you loose all high carbon steel properties when you weld it. I was quite taken back by that as the guy who is selling machine shop lathe tools and lathes told me that when I asked about buying lathe bits. I mean; if your in the machine shop trade and work with carbon steels.......... Well you do loose the original heat treatment/temper/whatnot that the steel works put in hopefully with well controlled ovens and timing. If you know what you do you can of course get most of the properties back but I assume the man thought you were a nitwit who did not understand that. How many customer do YOU meet who know about hardening and tempering? I think you were on the receiving side this time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SReynolds Posted September 20, 2016 Share Posted September 20, 2016 I poke. I do that. I ask questions to see what folks know. Be aware! If somebody asks you something there is no shame in saying "I don't know". But to stand there and run your jaw is embarrassing. So, yea,,,I ask questions to folks when I already know. One fellow told me the vertical cone aka Bick, placed into the hardie hole is for punching holes on the backside of steel stock. If I be asking you what a tool is intended for at SOFA meet, I know. I'm simply testing the waters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Cochran Posted September 20, 2016 Share Posted September 20, 2016 39 minutes ago, SReynolds said: One fellow told me the vertical cone aka Bick, placed into the hardie hole is for punching holes on the backside of steel stock. Wouldn't it so much easier just to flip it over if you had to punch from the other side? So people are ignorant beyond imagination and some are stupid when they assume that someone is ignorant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted September 20, 2016 Share Posted September 20, 2016 I had a self proclaimed knife maker, tell me we can not forge weld high alloy like D2, the odd look on his face when I asked him if that meant I need to stop forge welding layers of D2 + 1095 + 304 for damascus ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 20, 2016 Share Posted September 20, 2016 It seems to be a human trait to think that if a person can't do something then it Can't be done. Not that they don't know how themselves but that it can't be done. I think perhaps it is connected to or a manifestation of the Dunning Kruger effect. If a person doesn't know enough to evaluate their own ability and grossly over estimates their capabilities then if they can't do a thing it must not be possible. Period. Hmmmm? Steve, stop, stop that right now! Sheesh, when will you ever learn? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anachronist58 Posted September 20, 2016 Share Posted September 20, 2016 (edited) Dunning Kruger?? Thanks Frosty, yet another subject that I MUST look into Oh my..... Just took a sample - they stole my paper! Edited September 20, 2016 by Anachronist58 addendum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 20, 2016 Share Posted September 20, 2016 3 minutes ago, Anachronist58 said: Dunning Kruger?? Thanks Frosty, yet another subject that I MUST look into It's been brought up ad discussed here a few times, Their papers is a good read it puts into words an effect we've all noticed, like teenagers knowing everything while being as clueless as it gets. a link was posted but the article comes up an any search engine, maybe even the IFI engine. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anachronist58 Posted September 20, 2016 Share Posted September 20, 2016 I am on it like a rabid weasel. I am certain that Dunning-Kruger will reveal itself to be a significant component of..... Blah blah I am off topic. Thanks Jerry, exciting resource. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 21, 2016 Share Posted September 21, 2016 13 hours ago, Anachronist58 said: I am on it like a rabid weasel. I am certain that Dunning-Kruger will reveal itself to be a significant component of..... Blah blah I am off topic. Thanks Jerry, exciting resource. I understand that kind of excitement, I often take off like a ferret on pixy sticks when I discover a new . . . thing. Jer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted September 21, 2016 Share Posted September 21, 2016 On 9/17/2016 at 1:56 PM, jacbow2 said: So I'm making a tomahawk with a high carbon bit in between low carbon steel. As you can see in the picture the steel hasn't completely welded together. Should I just put it back in The forge and try a few more times? Is there anything I should do before that? lets start at the beginning. Have you forge welded anything before, and if so WHAT ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmoleaf Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 Where else but this forum can I read a forging thread and end up googling Dunning-Kruger and be reminded about Pixy Stix. Learned something new and was reminded of a candy I love. This site has great information! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkie Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 And....it only gets better!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 13 minutes ago, elmoleaf said: Where else but this forum can I read a forging thread and end up googling Dunning-Kruger and be reminded about Pixy Stix. Learned something new and was reminded of a candy I love. This site has great information! This is one of the reasons that we suggest you pack a lunch and a cold drink before coming to IForgeIron. (grin) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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