Hidden Poison

[CIRON]

2.5 Weeks ago I had an incident in my shop that I wasn't expecting. It was a Friday night and I was out and I had picked up some 3/16 "Weldable" round bar. I normally get all my metal from a metal supply place in town but because i didn't get there in time i picked some up at this other store for small project i was going to do for a client. (On, Canada) 

I got home around 8pm and  started to work with metal, It was small stock so i just used the torches to heat up, I did the first rough pretty quick then moved onto the second one. at about 8:30 i began to feel super dizzy, slower than normal and i noticed that my breath was short and now coughing. I shut down for the night and turned the fan off and closed the window which i had opened.

By 10ish i was eating freezes i had in the fridge one after another because my throat burned and the coughing was intense by this time. I stupidly went to bed instead of the hospital because i thought maybe i just got some dust in my airways. Saturday i was in bed and Sunday morning i went to emerg as it was so bad it hurt t breath and swallow.

At emerg my xrays showed inflammation and poison control got called as they believed i may had inhaled phosgene gas created from the heat of the torch and a possible cleaning chem that was on the metal. Pumped with steroids and puffers i was sent home because i had made it alive past the 12hr danger window. 

I don't keep any cleaners or paints in my metal shop and believe that possibly someone at the store was cleaning the rack and overshot onto the metal. Ammonia or chlorine based cleaner.

2.5 weeks later and i am finally moving around and feeling a bit better. It was the worst nauseousness i have ever had in my life and it lasted the full 2 and a half weeks every min of the day.
After doing some research and learning how lethal this scenario was and how lucky i was to have only inhaled enough to make me severely sick and not dead. 500ppm can kill a man instantly so learn from my lesson and be safe guys.

 

I have a question maybe some of you can help solve
1) We are trying to find out if this was a metal issue or a topcoat chemical. I have attached a photo and you can really see the redness in the metal as well as what looks like silver and black and orange on the new snipe hinges dots here and there on the 2 snipe hinges i was making. Obviously the old one is the original i was re creating.  I have made these before and not had the metal ever go red like that before nor had ever seen that happen. Does anyone know what would make the metal go red? I was to eliminate anything else as the culprit before taking legal action. I know you guys work lots with metal so i am trying to pick your brains.
 

2) What is a good way to clean my equipment to make sure its not contaminated too?

 

[DSW]

Silver and black look like scale to me. The "red" looks like flash rust.

I'm not sure about your question on cleaning "equipment". Acetone is a relatively "safe" cleaner for oils/grease etc. It's highly flammable, but leaves no residue. Denatured alcohol is another good cleaner. For heavy deposits I prefer to use mineral spirits or kerosene followed by acetone etc. This doesn't evaporate as fast and is less expensive for "bulk" cleaning.

 

You definitely want to avoid chlorinated brake cleaners at all costs.

[ianinsa]

Firstly I'm glad you made it through!  Now, read and remember! WELD IN A WELL VENTILATED SPACE!!!!!!

Bear in mind that steel is one of many products where "keeping it clean" is not considered part of the supply chain requirements. So it can easily get contaminated by anything from cat poop to hydraulic oil etc. At any point along said supply chain. 

[Alan Evans]

I am also glad you survived! Sounds a terrifying experience.

I am surprised there would be enough overspray on the bar to cause a problem, presumably only on two surfaces; top and the side from the spray direction, unless the stack was saturated.

The oxide surfaces do not look unusual to me....

What was the condition of the bar "as bought"? Bright, black, rusty? New stock? Old stock?

Do you have any of the unused/unheated bar left which can be analysed? Have you contacted the store to query their procedures and prevent further damage to their other customers?

You might want to check your torch gas cylinders to make sure they were not the source of the problem. Have you been using them some time or were they fresh? Can you trace the cylinder refill process back? Are the paint codes clear, any trace of another colour underneath? Could they have mixed up and used the wrong cylinder contaminated with some residual gas?

Alan

[ianinsa]

Dear ciron,, upon rereading my post it seems as if I was being critical of you and that was not my intention, I'm certain that one would not expect any such effect from 'bare' metal though it would seem common sense with galvanized or cadmium plated metal.  

Regards Ian

[gote]

Chlorinated compounds used to remove oil from metals, such as automotive brake cleaners, are converted to phosgene by the UV rays of arc welding.

[WayneCoeArtistBlacksmith]

A while back I posted this article on another forum:

http://www.brewracingframes.com/safety-alert-brake-cleaner--phosgene-gas.html

This needs to be studied by anyone using cleaners and heat.  Maybe print it out and keep it in the shop for future reference.

[CIRON]

I contacted the store the Sunday I was in emerg. They removed the metal later in the week after I had re contacted them again and they took it seriously. My shop is 12x30 and well ventilated. 

I have done the exact process many times and had just done it 2 weeks prior with same torches setup and exact same conditions but I used 1/4" round from my normal supplier without any issues. The only variant was the metal this time. 

I dont keep any cleaners in my bs shop all cleaners are at the house garage 100 or so feet away so there is no way for me to have contaminated it. I know about galvanized metal and fumes. The product was labeled weldsafe and says so right on it so I wasn't expecting to get poisoned from it.

Not sure if it's readable but you can see they rack I got it from and in the other image the light brighter metal beside the snipe is it prior to me using it. 

What concerns me is how light it looks, normally the metal I use is blue grey.

[Charlotte]

my suggestion is to take it to the nearest academic chemist you know and as ask for a qualitative analysis,    A quick rinse with hydrochloric acid and a borax bead test will tell if it is metal or organic contamination.   Colors of bead and flame identify metals.  Clean with nothing but Iron and it is organic.(chemical compound) 

[Frosty]

That's a very scary story, phosgene is worse than nasty stuff. How sure is the hospital it was phosgene exposure? Like you say it doesn't take much to kill you outright. I suppose a rust inhibitor coating could be the cuplprit, Cleaners I don't get.

I'm wondering what the Chinese manufacturer coated the stock with. Back in the day we bought steel that has covered in close black scale and oil, for decades it's been coated in I don't know, paint, plastic, ?. Who knows what it coming out of China: PBC based paint? PVC? Who knows what bargain ingredients get tossed in. Life is cheap in China, especially lives elsewhere.

Seriously, not long ago it was cadmium paint on toys, there's a uproar about wood laminate flooring that's saturated with formaldehyde. Formaldehyde penetrates wood very well and makes a good but more importantly CHEAP vehicle to carry preservatives into the wood. So it's poisonous for years as it evaporates, it's cheap.

I'm more than thankful you're regaining your health and even more thankful for the warning. I'm going to be wondering how to protect myself and others when I put a new piece of steel in the forge or take a torch to it. Anyone know if there's an effective phosgene detector that won't break the bank?

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[Anachronist58]

CIRON, did you by chance smell something like freshly mown hay? It is my understanding that odor is a strong indicator for phosgene. 

I hope you continue to regain your health, and I join the others in thanking you for posting here.

Robert Taylor

 

[Daswulf]

7 hours ago, WayneCoeArtistBlacksmith.c said:

A while back I posted this article on another forum:

http://www.brewracingframes.com/safety-alert-brake-cleaner--phosgene-gas.html

This needs to be studied by anyone using cleaners and heat.  Maybe print it out and keep it in the shop for future reference.

I read that article and thank you for the insight. I used to use brake cleaner for all kinds of stuff and am very grateful for the heads up before anything happened. It's a scary thought that a coating on metal could contain something that could cause that. 

[Frosty]

Thanks for the link Wayne I'll post it to the Alaska club's various sites. I don't even WANT to think how lucky I've been, brake cleaner was the standard degreaser in a couple welding shops I've worked. I have a can in my shop right now, I always use it outside but still. . . I think I REALLY am a LUCKY guy.

Changes made as soon as I open the shop door.

Thanks again. Frosty The Lucky.

 

[VaughnT]

I think you're on to something.  I've used a lot of the metal from those home stores when I just need a few feet and I need it now.  Never in all my days have I seen bars that have that spiral banding.  It's almost like they started out trying to make a form of rebar, but stopped and turned it into round, but that wouldn't account for the color variation --- I don't think.

I'm not a chemist or a lawyer, though.  The metal just looks very very odd to me and completely unlike anything I've ever seen before.

[Charlotte]

Typically metals of that size are shipped in coils  and run through a straightening mill before being marketed as straight bar.

If you look carefully at many smaller sized steel rounds you will see a  barely noticeable spiral pattern on them.

In this case I suspect that there was an over run of a specialty product that someone said just run it out on that market.  

At a guess on my part I think that the original material had a coating on it that probably some chlorinated plastic which was smeared onto the bar in the straitening mill.   

[natenaaron]

Our steel place owns the lumber place and have small quantities like this for people like me who can't get to the steel place before they close.  Same price so it works out.  I was joking with one of the workers about how messy the steel got my hands.  I told him Home Depot Steel get my hands dirty just by touching the stuff.  After some more joking he got serious and said that home depot cleans their steel and it can be nasty.  I wonder if this is what happened.

Good to know about the brake cleaner.  I have used a lot of brake cleaner, and carb cleaner to clean up but never to clean what I was welding.  That gets mineral spirits.  Is that bad too?

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

When I worked at a wire display company we straightened 1 ton spools of wire up to 000 (3/8"). We used diesel fuel for the lube when straightening as it was inexpensive, kept parts from rusting, and worked.

[ausfire]

That is a scary story. Thanks for alerting us to it, and I am pleased that you survived the ordeal.

That red colouration looks exactly like what you get when you burn off lead paint from old gutter brackets. But you were using new shop-bought steel. Please let us know if you find out more.

[Alan Evans]

The spiral pattern appears of similar pitch to the peeling tool marks on stainless steel. Quite why they would be peeling mild steel instead of blasting or pickling it I have no idea. It does not look like the result of coiling or decoiling to me...much more like a centre less peeling process....stripping the spines off rebar perhaps?

I thought round mild steel was supplied either blue/black, left with the mill scale and having been put through rollers to achieve cross section shape...or bright having been pickled and then drawn through dies to produce BDMS (Bright Drawn Mild Steel) either way no spiral is involved.

Alan

[ianinsa]

16 hours ago, Frosty said:

it. Anyone know if there's an effective phosgene detector that won't break the bank?

Frosty The Lucky.

A Canary? Worked for Methane back in the day!

 

[Nobody Special]

WD40 can also offgas phosgene when heated, and an effective detector, if not one you want to use, is your nose. Smells like mown hay.

[Frosty]

26 minutes ago, Nobody Special said:

WD40 can also offgas phosgene when heated, and an effective detector, if not one you want to use, is your nose. Smells like mown hay.

Oh joy mown hay or maybe grass. I can see the signs in our shops "If you smell mown hay call 911 immediately. This is the address."

Unless I'm mistaken phosgene is one of those toxins that by time you can smell it you're already heavily dosed, maybe to death.

As an aside and this has been mentioned here before but it's still an excellent idea. Hang a sign over the shop phone with the shop's physical address will get EMS there much quicker when seconds count. I'm thinking a little graphic, "You are HERE!" sign whether you have a shop phone or not. I should have one with a simple map from the roadway entry to the shop, it's not obvious.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[Anachronist58]

Below is in reference to heating or welding on freon-containing systems (refrigeration piping) this would naturally extend to those perfect little tanks for building a freon tank forge. I have an idea about when it would be safe to weld or heat a freon tank, but let someone here WHO KNOWS THE SCIENCE post FACTS concerning this.

I chose at this time to withhold my incomplete and potentially misleading knowledge, but be assured, getting away with something a time or two is NO PROOF OF SAFETY.

Robert Taylor

http://www.google.com/url?q=http://journal.publications.chestnet.org/mobile/article.aspx%3FarticleID%3D1095693&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwj77OjTyI7MAhVI0GMKHY8IAxgQFghJMBU&sig2=J9uAiElAf5HK53Kxsq2Dww&usg=AFQjCNHjes83ij3QLXBhZFI_mcPMNnpxkg

In case of inoperable link, google:

ACUTE PHOSGENE GAS EXPOSURE IN A 49-YEAR-OLD REFRIGERATOR TECHNICIAN

Edited April 14, 2016 by Anachronist58
addendum, clarification

[Nobody Special]

What I was given to understand, grant you this was filtered through belligerent NCOs years ago, was that you usually smell it when the dosage is fairly low, hard to smell in higher concentrations. And if ya smell mown hay, say in your urban forge or while welding, with no one running a John Deere, instead of say, near a hayfield, might be a warning sign. 

If you smell grass...well, at the least, make the culprit stay away from the power tools for a few hours.

[Buzzkill]

If you smell grass...well, at the least, make the culprit stay away from the power tools for a few hours.

The side effects there are usually lethargy and increased appetite though.  Although temporary uncontrolled coughing has been observed on multiple occasions immediately following inhalation.