A Student once asked

[Shamus Blargostadt]

On my soap box for a moment. Another thread was locked but there was a question I believe is very important, at least to me.

"My third question: What significance do you think blacksmithing has to today's world? "

I strongly believe that despite the wealth industrialization has brought a good portion of humanity there is a side of it that is harming us and there are things industrialization has successfully replaced which it can not match. It can not match the quality human hands and minds have cultivated over the centuries. Many would say in light of modern automation and industrialization, blacksmithing has no significance. I strongly disagree. Take knives. The mass produced stamped crap that floods our markets are nowhere near the quality of a hand forged, sanded, polished, and crafted blade that inspires so many people to yearn to invest in an anvil and learn how to do the same.  The cookie-cutter iron home embellishments sold by the stacks in the likes of Ikea and Sears will never approach the quality and beauty of a handcrafted work produced by an experienced smith's shop. The significance is the inspiration and appreciation of the accomplishment of an artist, or artisan brings to an admirer that a factory produced item will never duplicate. In my experience, the product of a factory will never give what a handmade product of equal function will yield - joy. I do not think this is unique to blacksmithing. I see it in bread, when comparing factory stamped "Wonder Bread" to hand crafted sourdough loaves. I taste it in coffee when comparing the likes of Folger's Crystals or burnt Starbucks to small coffee shops who do their own roasting. I hear it in music when comparing the current industry "formula" bands to the likes of independent songwriters.

Yes, much of this is opinion and like other anatomical body parts, everyone has one.  But I regard what you guys are doing and what many of you are struggling and fighting to learn how to do as being extremely significant. You inspire and you make people yearn for something better rather than something cheaper. The human race needs inspiration and the demand for better. We tried cheaper, and it's not going well.

 

[mcostello]

The demand and usefulness of a skill is often made in either self satisfaction or public demand. If You like making things, that's good. If You can find and fill a niche and make money at it then- bonus points.

[ThomasPowers]

Might want to read some of the "Arts & Crafts movement" manifestos.  About 100 years old now...

[ianinsa]

2 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

Might want to read some of the "Arts & Crafts movement" manifestos.  About 100 years old now...

I think the 'problem' isn't new! The the end of building Khufu's pyramid some stone masons possibly over a beer complained about no one really knowing how to work marble and granite anymore! Then at the end of the Byzantine empire after building the cisterns of Constantinople some stone masons said something similar! Then etc. Etc. Today one struggles to find workers of granite and marble? Yet Sheik Zayed's grand mosque(with stonework reminiscent of the Taj Mahal) in Abu Dhabi is testament to the fact that it can still be done.

[VaughnT]

And we shouldn't confuse the quality of mass-produced with the quality of hand-crafted.  They are made to two different standards, to meet two different price points for two different types of clientele.

Throughout all of history, the wealthy class has been the one to patronize the craftsman and allow him to reach for new heights.  But, a lot of the craftsman had to do the drudge work, making nail after nail, and keeping the peons in basic goods.

[Arceye Blue]

Don't be fooling yourselves.

With the advent of robotics and 3D printers the world is in for a change .the people with wealth will distance themselves from the underlings as the guild skills are no longer required. "Look at Londonium " and what it as done to the rest of the UK.

If you are surplus to requirements you will disappear .

The race is lost before you reach the starting post.

[Charles R. Stevens]

Societies based on "specialization" are inherantly vunrable. If I interrupt your supply chain your 3D printers fail, be it processed materials, electricity or qualified programmers and designers. A man or woman who an take raw materials and make usible items with out computers, electricity and other tramping of our modern world will always have a place. Facts are that desasters happen, be they may made or natural. 

[Frosty]

Wow, that's a pretty depressing point of view Arceye Blue. It's certainly accurate as far as it goes many trades are done for as industrial standards, Blacksmithing in point. Regardless it's human nature to want an identifier to stand out as an individual and this is a need mass production can't fulfill. Well, not intentionally, consider mis-struck coins IIRC there was a penny(?) that the obverse was struck upside down and it sold for tens of thousands last time it went to auction.

Humans want to be identified as individuals, tatoos and piercings have become a popular method though how individual are you if you're following a trend?

Anyway, hand crafts won't die. Who calls the 3D printer or robot that makes plumbing to come fix a leak? Patch a hole in the roof, sweep a chimney, etc.? They call a skilled human being and pay dearly for the skill. It reminds me of an old story.

There was this old Railroad shop foreman who drew top wages but did almost nothing at work but drink coffee, read the paper or occasionally walk around the shop and criticize. Mmanagement determined there was no good reason to keep him on, the shop was fully staffed with skilled and well trained young men who were stronger, more vigorous and knew their business but most importantly drew much lower wages. So they presented the old fellow with his retirement, pension and sent him off with a party. Things went well in the shop for quite a while and the old foreman enjoyed swapping stories at the pub, fishing and just sitting in the sun wittling (or whatever).

Then one day some 7-8 months after he was retired the new shop foreman looks him up and asks him for help with an engine they can't get to work properly. He shrugs and tells the young man, a friend as well, that he's retired and doesn't work for the RR anymore. Have you read the manual? The new foreman leaves to get back to trouble shooting the engine. A week later one of the head office management mooks (Mook is my addition ) The "boss" asks for the old fellow's help. The old fellow quotes his fee as a consultant, the manager blanches and tells him it's completely out of the question and leaves. A couple weeks later the engine is still blocking a line in the shop, isn't pulling loads and is costing money, LOTS of money. Management sends another representative from a higher rung with a counter offer. The old fellow snorts and submits his fee. The Manager only pales a bit and says, "This is more than we would've paid you if you were still working AND we're paying your pension now," be reasonable! The old fellow says, "I'm happy here I'm not negotiating. Want 997 working?"

With that Management admits it must pay the piper and signs the work order. The old fellow comes in, says high to the guys and listens to the engine go through it's paces. He takes a pair of wrenches out of his pocket, loosens a lock nut and turns a bolt slowly till he's happy with the sound and the engine works perfectly as it pulls out of the shop. The old man walks up to the office, looks at the clock, revises the charge and accepts the check. The CEO is standing there fuming, "You charged more than 7 months wages to turn ONE screw!"

"Nope," the old fellow says, "I charged you 7 months with a raise for knowing WHICH screw to turn." With that he leaves for the bank and pub.

No matter how advanced technology gets nothing, NOTHING beats a skilled human for making things work. Heck, we clever monkeys with the thumbs INVENTED the technology and make it work. Without a human's direction technology is nothing but refined dirt.

"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, con a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."

-Robert A. Heinlein

Yeah, I'm a Heinlein fan, he inspired me to learn to read and I'll never forget.

Frosty The Lucky.

Specialization is for insects..txt

[ThomasPowers]

Well I once had an interesting discussion with SF author S.M.Stirling, (Dies the fire, Island in the stream of time, etc) on the usefulness of a smith in post apocalyptic scenarios.  Since most such included a 90% die off, (including yours truly as a type 1 Diabetic), a good scrounger would be more useful than a smith and most smiths wouldn't have the specialized knowledge where they might be useful, (what's the proper angle for a plow point for a horse drawn plow in *your* locale?).  Even swords are available by the bushel load at various historical societies, museums, etc.  Now later on when things stabilize; a smith who could repair the horse drawn machinery using only hand tools and had the tools could be a *good* *thing*!  (How many folks have drilled a 1/2" hole in 1/2" thick steel by hand? cf  Cole drill!)  All y'all can fight over my stash if that happens...

[rockstar.esq]

Making stuff by hand for reasons of quality, aesthetics, or curiosity will always hold a certain appeal to people concerned with such things.  Case in point: It's nearly 2016 and we're discussing blacksmithing on the internet.

Asking society to agree that any specific thing is economically necessary to such an extent that individuals can make their livelihood indulging their passions is and always will be a crap shoot.

Timing and opportunity make a FAR bigger difference on your odds of success than being smart, hard working, or charismatic.  Everything in economics is a risk versus reward proposition.  If it's unpopular, scarce, or hard to do, there's potential reward for the token few who will take the long odds.

If it's safe, established, easy, and popular there's less reward for the masses who jump on the bandwagon.

It's easy to get pretentious about how this or that should be more respected simply because it's traditional, old-fashioned, or quirky.  I've grown tired of  labels like "artisinal" because there are tons of things made by hand everyday that nobody cares about.  Everyone on a construction site from  a landscaper to an electrician is working with their hands.  They're treated like second class citizens who aren't allowed to use the front door, the parking lot, or public restrooms. 

There are plenty of boring buildings that have never had a major problem from their grand opening to their final demolition.  The silent testament to the craftsman's work is largely ignored because nobody cares about mundane stuff that "just works".

Personally, I'm ready for a trades revival.  I've got nothing against the artistic set, but I've seen enough fawning over quirky niche-market stuff railing against everything that's cheap enough for an average tradesperson to afford.  I think it's time to encourage apprenticeship in the skilled trades by venerating the good work that's gone before and sharing what we all know.  Pretending that only "pretty" stuff is craftsmanship is how real craftsmanship was devalued in the first place. 

This is one area that the Internet has allowed a tremendous amount of progress.  Prior to things like this forum, many of us would be unable to connect with people with rare or obscure knowledge.  I think that's really encouraging.

[Randy Bill]

Our young niece, her husband, and the godson were out this summer for an afternoon visit; after a brief tour of the "forge" we retired to the shade for refreshments and to catch up on news. All three soon retrieved their devices and gave them much loving attention. My thoughts? These two generations aren't saving money to buy handcrafted.

[Charlotte]

There is a constant battle with the mass marketers who spot a tend created by artists/craftsmen and recreate the "impression" in mass production factories.  I remember a few years back seeing a truckload of "bakers racks" being hauled in from Mexico for sale here.  How many of the readers have sold a bakers rack  in the last 10 years?   There are many other items that have been part of the smiths stock in trade that are imitated out fashion. 

I have nothing against artistic work.   In fact I have often attempted and failed at creative items.  I look at the work published in ABANA's "The Anvils Ring"  with amazement and some times envy of the creative insight that led to their creation.  To survive as craftsmen the smith will have to offer the paying public items of quality and beauty that are not widely imitated by mass production.  The smiths of my personal acquaintance that have made a living at the forge have all developed a personal style and product area that appeals to group of people with discrimination and sufficient income to make the purchase of their work practical. 

I know a lot of people that recognize quality but only a very few that can afford it.

  

[Shamus Blargostadt]

It is rumored that at the height of his success, billionaire J.D. Rockefeller was asked "how much is enough", to which he is reported to have replied "One more dollar."  

I'm a sysadmin by profession. I can appreciate the unsung success of "keeping the lights on" and thereby being invisible by a job well done, but my point was that significance isn't measured in just monetary value.  Furthermore, I can't buy inspiration; the kind of inspiration that drives me to go out and try to create something great. (then some of you are just so awesome I want to give up!)

What you seasoned craftsmen give is much more than a product that might be sold for a few bits of paper with a government seal on it, and it is far more valuable.

Yes money can affect our lives in great and positive ways, but it's not the only thing that makes life worth living. There's more.

[LawnJockey]

As Frank Zappa said, "Is that a real poncho or is it a Sears poncho?"

[ThomasPowers]

Shamus; do you also find it very therapeutic to go out and hit something with a hammer after a day working with computers? 

[notownkid]

Being a student of history it seems to me that we are all a Nano minute from our "Modern Society"  of throw it away when broke, everything made or grown 100s of miles from us coming to an abrupt stop.  This can come from weather, economy, terrorists or a host of things.  It can be short term or long term.  Then the blacksmith plus a host of other "old" crafts will be needed, required and respected for a few moments.  Nothing we learn or practice will be unwanted as we will be able to REPAIR things not replace. 

Is Blacksmithing past tense or forward thinking?  History has a nasty habit of repeating itself. 

PS   I VOTE FORWARD THINKING. 

 

[Shamus Blargostadt]

On 12/31/2015 at 10:49 AM, ThomasPowers said:

Shamus; do you also find it very therapeutic to go out and hit something with a hammer after a day working with computers? 

absolutely! After a week of fighting with broken mickysoft, mindless security hurdles, and endless government knucklehead politics, hammering steel is very soothing.

[Errorgance]

there are two factors behind the value of something, how scarce it is, and the amount of human effort behind it. 

Despite increasing automation, the fruits of our labor will never truly lose value.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Errogance, I would disagree with you. The amount of human effort can have no bearing on value.  I see beaded items that I know took quite awhile to thread, but the retail price is literally just a couple of dollars. On the other hand you can have something that takes little to no effort to produce, and if the demand is high enough make millions.

Supply, and demand are what drive value. 

[John McPherson]

Second that disagreement. A lifetime of hard work is often unrecognized and unrewarded, while college dropouts become internet billionaires by creating and selling web based social sites. 

[FrankS]

I wonder how many of the fine folks here at IFI are doing blacksmithing for a livelihood vs doing it for self-satisfaction (and if there are some sales, that is just gravy)?

 

I'm brand new at this. My lifelong passion has been photography. I still do a lot of it the old fashioned way, in the wet, instead of the much easier modern digital way. I do it for self-satisfaction. 

my website: frankfoto.jimdo.com

[Alan Evans]

It has been my only source of income since I left college in 1973.

Alan

17 minutes ago, FrankS said:

I wonder how many of the fine folks here at IFI are doing blacksmithing for a livelihood vs doing it for self-satisfaction (and if there are some sales, that is just gravy)?

 

I'm brand new at this. My lifelong passion has been photography. I still do a lot of it the old fashioned way, in the wet, instead of the much easier modern digital way. I do it for self-satisfaction. 

my website: frankfoto.jimdo.com

 

 

[Rashelle]

I'm also doing it for a living, though I'd consider myself among the least of those here that do so. I actually enjoy going in to work nowadays and still research and blacksmith even on my time off. I also remember that there are many who do not do it for a living who are much better then me.

[coldironkilz]

Why, must some posters on this forum, cause to happen such thought provoking threads? My mind is about to explode.

As an occupation a blacksmith between1860 and 1890 worked on average 10 hours a day.

He earned on average $2.00 per day.

A necktie “designed to supersede all other methods for fastening the bow to a turndown collar” cost $0.10

One pair of shoes cost $0.98

One pound of Coffee cost $0.25

$1 in 1875 = $20.20 today

I think what many of you produce today as you practice the art/craft of Blacksmithing would fall into the category of sculptural art, not intended for the "masses", rather filling a niche,

a specialized segment of the market desiring a particular kind of product or service. Products made out of a passion for a skill requiring a lifetime of honing, exacting eye/hand coordination, familiarity with such archaic tools as, hammer, tongs, anvil, forge, swages, tools who's names are no longer known let alone the skills to use such tools, will always in my opinion, be sought by those who appreciate the time, labor, and skills required to produce them. 

 

[Worshipdrummer]

"Does Blacksmithing have a place in today's society"?  A reasonable paraphrase of the original question.  To answer it I point your attention to the Antikythera mechanism.  Found by divers in the waters off of Antikythera it has been dated to around 100-205 B.C. roughly.  The device was so sophisticated and advanced, scientists are still debating over what it's purpose was.  Scientists thought (prior to the discovery) that the people of that time period were incapable of that kind of craftsmanship.  In fact, once that technology was lost to history it does not appear again until roughly the 14th century.  My point is this, if we do not make a place for Blacksmithing in today's society then all that has been learned, all of the knowledge that has been earned for centuries will be lost at some point.  It is our responsibility to pass this knowledge on to those who are interested so it will survive and not be lost.  The cool part is that by imparting your knowledge, your way of doing things, your thoughts and methods a part of you will live forever.