Where is the help?

[Rich Hale]

i certainly will not speak for Steve. But I will take this opportunity to get something off of my chest. The idea of why don't we just write something up and post it has been a mainstay of this site and will continue to be...It is the life blood of the site.

Steve and I stepped up and did just that with the knife making lessons. We both took our personal and shop time and prepared a lot of information for folks of any experience level to use as they saw fit...Free!

Most of the time on the nights we presented the classes live here there were less than ten folks joined us. Less than likely would have been here without the classes for a normal chat night. 

We were prepared for that but hoped that as it was posted in the forums,,many times the same night, there would be more than just a few that appreciated it. Apparently we were wrong.

Several times I have suggested in the forum that when someone asks about something we covered in those lessons I suggest they read them. Gasp!. Research the easily found info,,,,say it aint so!

And i have had several folks tell me in the chat room they would just as soon I retype it in the chat window rather than they open up the forum and peek,,,even when someone in the room posts a  hot link. 

Steve may indeed share this info for all the folks to see and appreciate....Not I. 

 

[Steve Sells]

Continuing on Rich's post,  one of the things that got me upset the most about the lack of attendance was that during that same knife chat, we noticed some of the people constantly asking the basic questions over and over again in the forum were online during the chat and some even had popped into the chat room.  They didn't stay long, rather went into forum and posted questions that we were covering rather than pay attention, complaining that they didnt get an answer yet, only 2 hours after they started the thread. 

 

The final straw was when more than one member stated their time is too valuable to attend or read through a repost of the class in the forum.  Which implys clearly to me they consider our time as less valuable. I know it can take some time to navigate the forums, but have some manners.   Demanding we give personal attention one person even said he wanted new answers,  then left the chat acting offended.  Did the posted answers change in value? 

 

I know of more than one member that has stopped posting entirely, a few that do not even come back after having been snubbed when taking their time to help.   On the other hand some want to start trouble, then after being embarrassed about it,  say we treated them bad.  We tried to help, that was our choice,  but why bother if it isn't helping? More often, I now choose to help only when I see a person has tried to help themselves.  If I do not see it,  then I pass.

[Marksnagel]

Rich and Steve,

 

 I am not an aspiring knife maker and do not wish to make knives beyond the occasional letter opener. (yet)

 

That being said, I appreciate all the time and effort and expertise that you have both put forth and shared with the members. I'm sorry that some people took your efforts for granted. I am grateful for all those here that offer their knowledge and advice. I have learned so much, well pretty much everything, from IFI and those willing to share and teach. 

 

Thank you for all you have done and continue to do. I respect and thank you for your willingness to give of your time and talents.

 

Mark <><

[Solano]

Rich and Steve,

I was one of the new guys that came and went during some  of the knife chats. I just want to say that some nights I left because some of the information was way above my skill level and I felt if I wasnt ready to apply it, I should learn more first. I felt bad a couple of times when told to check the blueprint pages. I have to mention as a new person, it was difficult to find what I wanted, and the search does NOT always send me to what I want with repeated refined search request, but I eventually find it. To make a long story short, I am one of the new guys that learned alot, and very much appreciate your time and effort. Thank you very much. I have in the past asked Rich a question or two that was probably very basic to him and he answered me well. I have learned alot from posts and forum replies. At this point I understand the frustration y'all get when someone says they are new to this and want to make a knife! I have made dozens and dozens of objects with your "intentional practice" theory. Am I ready to make a knife, absolutely not, what I will do is continue to practice. I have the luxury of a real good smith in my area that has been real good to help me, and would like to say to anyone new, get to an experienced person or a class. Unlearning bad habits are hard, learn good ones to begin with.

Again, thank you to all the contributors.

Vince Smith

[jmccustomknives]

Guys, what you do here is much appreciated. I'll be the first to appologize for not taking part in knife making lessons. (I did after the fact) Part of the problem is the nameless/faceless nature of the threads. Sometimes we mis interpret the tone of the post. I can tell you by experience that when I first came on board it took a little time to figure out how to navigate around. That being said this is by far the best forum in format and personalities. I throw my piddly little opinions in from time to time. That's part of the fun, well that and I never had anyone to take the time to show me anything when I first started in 'smithing so if I can help a newb I will.
Thanks for all your work guys!


I almost forgot, in the years since I first came on board you guys have inspired me to become better. Sometimes through critique, other time exhortation. I hope that as you have seen my progress and if there is any improvement that you know you had a part in it.

[DSW]

Sadly I think most "kids" today ( anyone under maybe 35) really hasn't been taught to do research. They expect everything to be spoon fed to them individually. In some ways I don't completely blame them. I blame the school systems that want to make everyone "equal" and no longer teach people how to arrive at answers thru research, but to simply regurgitate whatever they have been handed.

 

I know how frustrating and annoying it can be to keep getting asked the same question over and over. Many times I just do the google search and copy paste my old text rather than retype what I've posted 100+ times before.

 

 

I will admit many sites have a poor search engine. I've given up on most of them ( I couldn't even tell you how well the one works here) I just pull up google and type in Iforgeiron and a detailed description of what I'm looking for, and then browse those entries 1st rather than use the site search engine. that usually gets me closer than the site will to what I want .

 

 

 

I do appreciate the time you guys take to explain stuff and post it up, even if it's not something I've had a need yet to access like the blade stuff.

[Stephen Olivo]

I feel like I am quiet sometimes on here.  I have read through all of the knife posts you have put up.  I mean to get back and read them again as I go on making knives, axes and other sharp implements.  I would like to let you know that I am one who appreciate the time both of you have taken to capture that witch you so fought so hard for.  I have also been on the other side of the conversation and been the one trying to help.  Some will never appreciate what we give and those will come and go but the ones that truly thank you for it and appreciate it are those that come back for more and even if you don't see it will read it over and over looking back at it to clarify things they not yet understand.  Sadly I rarely have been able to take part in the conversations for a couple of reasons.  Often I am working to make a living during that time, Or forging or cold work on things.  Took me a while to take part in the chat as sometimes you just need to be near the computer and it isn't anywhere where I can work on stuff so its work or wait for a fun conversation at the compy.  So I must again say a big thank you for both your efforts.  Hopefully one day more then the handful I have met will appreciate the same from me.  Keep em coming I do love more info more thoughts and as always I think of more I want to do :D   

[Cloudspike84]

I am pretty new to posting here, but I have to say that the wealth of information to be found is incredible. I see the kinds of posts you guys are talking about all the time where the same questions are asked again and again and I can see that that would be annoying at least. I felt stupid asking the one question I have because it was to something I KNEW I had read here already but just couldn't find it again. The google + iforgeiron + what you are searching for is certainly the best way to search the site, and if people would read the post about that it might cut back on the repeat questions. In any case, thanks for all of the information; I am going to read and re-read more of the Knife Class thread now!

[SoCal Dave]

I clearly understand your complaint about dealing with the public.  A thought came to mind.  What would (insert religious leader of choice here) have done if only ten people had shown up at one of his sermons.  He would have preached to the 10 and said it was good.  If one of those 10 guys you taught to during you knife classes turned out to do great stuff or even OK stuff but really enjoyed his/her time making knives, you should say "it was good".  Maybe you changed someone's life. Good job in teaching guys.   

[Charles R. Stevens]

I appreciate your feelings Rich, and Steve. As I appreciate your time and experience. Even tho attendance may not be what you hoped, for posterity all your work and time is worth it.

[Loneforge]

If it wasn't for the time and effort put into the lessons and know how these gentlemen exhibit I would not be where I am today as a Bladesmith. Once again I will say loudly, If you do not apply what you learn from a lesson it will not bear any fruit. I never asked any blank page questions without having tried or at least failed first. Having said that I have never had a problem prying info out of anyone here. Once they know you're in the shop and doing or trying they will all lend a hand. Get out there, get dirty and prove your worthy of being helped and it will happen. Thanks again guys for helping me along a slow and pleasurable journey.

 

Darren

[1forgeur]

First off, thanks to everyone who contributes. I know your time is valuable. To those that don't have time to do research, maybe they should just try it on their own. I think they will find out it takes a lot less time to research something than it does to figure it out on your own. I guess they just want to be an instant blacksmith. Only thing I've found instant doing this is how you can instantly ruin something you have been working on all day because you didn't do the research on the proper procedure.

[swedefiddle]

Good Morning,

 

Thank you for caring enough to spend the time creating a history. I  appreciate it and the information is true for something other than Blades.

I am not interested in production of pretty jewelery, but the information is not wasted.

 

How many times I hear "I'm gonna make a sword", from a beginner. My answer is "Why would you start out knowing it will be a failure. Don't work with Negativity, Start simple and make Positive Steps".

That is when I get that "Stupid old man, doesn't know anything" look.

 

I teach a Blacksmith Class locally and I can understand your not seeing any tangible gains in knowledge. What you don't see and hear are the individuals that "Learn with their mouth closed". :) :)  I am one. :D :D

 

Thanks,

Neil Gustafson

[Frosty]

The gimme folk have been around all my life. They want the EASY answer, the one secret so they can do IT without having to study or work at it. Guys I worked with who spent all their after work time sucking down beer while I read and thought I was just lucky I knew so much. Guys who didn't understand something I said so I was stupid.

 

Anyone here remember when Ron Reil was a regular poster on theforge list? He wrote a website to help folk build his linear burners the EZ being the most popular probably because it was "easy" it isn't, it's just more simple. Anyway Ron stopped replying to E-mails unless you're a friend because of all the folk who'd start asking questions without reading the FAQ. What really did it for him were how many got mad when he told them to read the directions. Heck, one guy got so ticked he drove Ron off theforge list altogether.

 

In spite of all the chowderheads who waste everybody's time asking previously answered questions, sometimes several times in a row, or just say dumb things thinking they sound smart. The guys still trying to get the knowledge out deserve more thanks that I can articulate. I sometimes wish I had an E-rubber chicken I could reach through the screen and slap the snot out of the . . . Special ones.

 

Steve, Rich, you have my deepest regards for what you put up with and how much you do. Don't give up please, I'd miss you and I'm not a bladesmith. I just value the real deal where ever I find it.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[WmHorus]

 I would have attended to show support as well as learn a few thigns but I was and am still busy with school and lack of consistant internet access. I am glad you guys are here and did what you did.

[rthibeau]

Thank you everyone for posting such kind comments for Rich and steve. We know they appreciate it.


Youse blokes feel better now????
:) :) :) :)



sorry......couldn't resist :;

[Steve Sells]

A little bit actually. :rolleyes:   Thank you guys. 

 

Part of my problem is slow work in winter,  the other is I made the mistake of visiting a few other forums where I saw posts making personal attacks, large banner adds from the members,  rumors being treat as fact with out a check that would have shown its false, and in general a lot of garbage making it hard to read the threads.  Then I come here and see people complaining about how we operate in this place? 

 

If I state a posted project has a good start, and suggest ways to improve and finish it, later someone gets upset because they decided it was finished.  So now I am rude by pointing out where improvements could be made.    If a person does not want to get better, that is their business.  But to get upset when when "the emperor has no clothes"  and I point that out will never get me to want to help them in the future. This is a blacksmith site, not a kindegarten where every one gets good grades for being here.

 

Why am I the bad guy for teaching?  A few have told me I come across as rude or gruff many times.   Sorry that was not my intent, but I know it happens.  I don't call anyone stupid for not knowing in a post or chat no matter how much I may have wanted to, but some of those same people are not paying attention or not trying,  and have no problem calling me or others rude when told things they don't like to hear. 

 

It is hard to read a posters intentions on a cold written word of the internet.  Many these days demand political correctness and be rewarded for showing up rather than producing results,  I dont know how to kiss up and give accurate feedback at the same time, so many times I feel its getting easier to avoid it.  If they wont try, why do I have to ?

[HWHII]

I applaud you men for the effort you put forth. You should not feel alone with people's lack of participation. Talking with some around the country and here in AZ we have experienced them same lack of inthuiasum. We have over 200 members in our association and we average maybe 40 to attend a demonstration we sponsor every 2 months. Even when we have had high quality world class demonstrators, like Adrian Legg and Mark Aspery in September and November. The admission was $10 and $20 for a whole day demo. What a deal and we still could not get the people out. I truly don' understand it. Personally I'm not a blade smith but if I were I would be wanting to learn from you two. You don't even have to go anywhere or spend a dime.

[John McPherson]

Thanks for all you do!

 

 

My motto for forums is "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything." So I ignore a thread, or wait 30 minutes or 3 days to see if I can come up with something more positive than "That looks like you forged it with a rock and finished it with a brick." 

 

I teach welding for a living, and hammer for fun. You have no idea how few students that pay for a class out of their own pockets still can not be troubled to crack a book, take a note, or stay for the whole class. Those on a scholarship are worse. It is the one out of ten with the proper attitude and talent that keeps me going.

[DSW]

If I state a posted project has a good start, and suggest ways to improve and finish it, later someone gets upset because they decided it was finished.  So now I am rude by pointing out where improvements could be made.    If a person does not want to get better, that is their business.  But to get upset when when "the emperor has no clothes"  and I point that out will never get me to want to help them in the future. This is a blacksmith site, not a kindegarten where every one gets good grades for being here.

 

Why am I the bad guy for teaching?  A few have told me I come across as rude or gruff many times.   Sorry that was not my intent, but I know it happens.  I don't call anyone stupid for not knowing in a post or chat no matter how much I may have wanted to, but some of those same people are not paying attention or not trying,  and have no problem calling me or others rude when told things they don't like to hear. 

 

 

 

Don't sweat it Steve. I get the same attitude all the time when I try and help people learn how to weld on some forums. I'll admit I'm often a bit blunt. If it looks like "garbage", I'll say so. ( It took me a while to come up with a decent G rated word to describe what comes out of the back end of a bird. LOL) That's what I do in class when people are paying to improve, and I see no reason to be any different on line.  I see no point in being touchy feely just to fluff up someones ego. I always also point out why and how they can improve, or I make a suggestion of how they could make the project better. In rare cases I'll point out glaring safety flaws or unsafe practices.   For that I often get hammered by some guys who think I'm being " mean". I'm sure you understand what I'm saying.

 

 

I just don't let it bother me. I get plenty of guys who thank me, either publicly or by PM, for helping them to get better and learn, even if they weren't the original poster. It is nice to occasionally know you have managed to help someone. It often takes the sting off the posts by those who feel you are being abusive to others for whatever reason. That's the reason I post on those subjects. I want people to learn and improve. I look at every one of those posts from the standpoint that someone else later might have a similar issue and be looking for a solution. I'm often writing not just to the OP but to others as well.

[Frosty]

Yeah Steve you can be a crabby old fart. So what? If a person can't stand to hear a blunt criticism hot steel isn't for them. Period. Get touchy feely with hot steel and you won't do it again, maybe take up something safe, flower arranging . . . oh wait, roses have thorns, maybe something safer.

 

The only folk I have any inclination to be gentle with are those who are trying and need help. There are three subjects I won't engage in publicly let aloe online: Religion, politics and money. I'll talk business, pricing, etc. but not money woes. Dad said they're toxic subjects so I don't engage.

 

I don't do PC, I call a spade a spade, ask my opinion and that's just what you'll get. I don't drive the spurs in just because I can but a critique may sting a little. I don't talk to hurt people but the temptation can be pretty irresistible though. A good friend of mine told me what his Mother used to tell the kids pretty regularly. I love it. I've adopted it and use it on occasion. "Logic to a fool is like singing to a mule." There are folk out there you just can NOT help I try not to let it bother me, you can't save em all.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[David Einhorn]

1) Last night I was reading the book “Damascus. Tecniche di forgiatura-Forging techniques” by Flavio Galizzi, Luca Pizzi Emilio Albericci and commented to my wife that I did not understand how people have complained that the book did not explain how to make Damascus (pattern welded blades) when obviously it does explain how to make Damascus. Apparently extracting information from text is a skill, and the ability to read text from page one is becoming a lost art. It was explained to me that young folks today expect to be able to flip though a book or other textual material and find one spot in the book or text that has a complete set of steps from step one to finished all in that one spot.

 

This was demonstrated years ago during my one attempt at substitute teaching. A class assignment was to answer questions provided by the teacher. Some students complained that they could not find the answers in the book , even though the answers were in large Bold Text within the chapter. One student commented that the answers were in the chapter, that perhaps the other students could try actually reading the chapter rather than just looking for the answers in Bold Text.

 

2) There will always be folks that are beginners and expect to make a nice if not perfect sword or other project on their first try at smithing. We have become a society of instant gratification. Sometimes in whatever a person might be doing, whether smithing or something else, the only thing one can do is simply let the person try something so that they can find out for themselves that a task is more difficult then they thought and that they require some assistance. Until then it is wise to wait for what teachers call a “teachable moment”, which means that the person is open and willing to accept information from someone else. Experience has taught me that if the person is not experiencing a “teachable moment” all they will do is shut down and be even more resistant to learning.

 

3) Some folks have a lifestyle of bad manners and may unfortunately believe that verbally insulting everyone around them is “Normal”, and may even be the “cultural norm” of their family and social group.

 

Just my opinion, experience may vary.

[Dan C]

I'm one of those that from time to time y'all have either corrected on the forum for what I've done in the shop or told to check the knife making classes. Maybe at the moment I'd didn't exactly appreciate it but you were right and I'd tell myself not to do that again (then later I might screw up again). I've never taken it personal and now I find myself amazed most times at the amount of patience and restraint that is shown. Many times I find myself having to shake my head and walk away from the computer because of some of the green questions that are asked without looking first.

Thank you for all the work you've put into this site and the help you provide. It is greatly appreciated!!!

[Loneforge]

If today's generation needs an answer they pull their mobile device..ask Google and then there you have it ...instant gratification. Blacksmithing or Bladesmithing is not an instant gratification hobby or job. I've read all the lessons....some repeatedly. I've taken the critique ....Boohoohoo. And guess what, my work has improved a ton! If it weren't for the lessons and general great manner of all involved I would probably still be making poor knives. 

 

Many thanks for all who helped me along the way. Hooey on anyone to criticize what you guys have done, Rich Hale, Steve Sells, You guys have done a fantastic job and I hope you stay with us!

[Rich Hale]

Wow this has taken on a life of its own: I need to 'splain; I wrote this little whiny thing in a thread where a person had asked Steve to write up how he did something and post it....That bothered me a lot as he and I had done that with the knife making lessons. I just wanted to vent a bit and did. I did not split that off from that thread or title this thread. 

Nor do those two items bother me at all. For sure it allowed a lot of folks to read and respond in their own way and for their own reasons.

And I did not write any part of this to get a pat on the head for wot we worked hard on. I have read and tried to understand as much as I can each and every post in the thread and will continue for as long as the posts continue.

 

Thanks to all for the thoughts.