Forging Carver Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 On November 6, 2015 at 9:40:39 AM, Black Frog said: Someone asked me about the snake opener, and it seems my picture has gone missing from that post. That'll teach me to trust uploading pics here instead of linking... I'll try it again. Anyway here's the last couple completed. The round one was a custom order for a very repeat customer.... Is this your video on YouTube black frog? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvQhusikYxk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Cochran Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 19 hours ago, JHCC said: As we used to say in the furniture business: Sell to the classes, live with the masses; sell to the masses, live with the classes. Thanks for that wonderful insight. I'm gonna have to make a sight outta that to hang in my shop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ausfire Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 Quint and Panday inspired me to try a rebar opener. I'm not too fond of rebar, except for making snakes. This was 1/2 bar but I think I'll use 5/8 next time or at least upset the end of the smaller bar to get more mass. Things got a bit thin there but it works OK. Decided to make the scroll end laterally as it fits the hand better than vertical. Anyway, here 'tis: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panday Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 Pricing is weird. I've been in involved in various forms of entreprenurial enterprise since I was 12 over 2 decades ago. While pricing too high can obviously scare off potential buyers pricing too low can do the same thing. I had a friend when I first started out that was doing a lot of swap meets and craft sales. I sent them off with about 20 leaf keychains, and long story short, they sold better priced at $10 than they did at $5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forging Carver Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 Wow that's interesting. Wow that's interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 "Perceived Value" is a wonderful thing: "A costs more than B, therefore A is worth more than B." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panday Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 13 minutes ago, JHCC said: "Perceived Value" is a wonderful thing: "A costs more than B, therefore A is worth more than B." And that's exactly why I'm making these rough cheap openers. Not only to meet a price point, but also to make the more expensive stuff seem more valuable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 (edited) It is called perceived value. That is what the customer feels it is worth, and it varies from person to person, and region to region. I see it with my potter friends who sell at fairs. People like the hand thrown coffee mugs until they see the $30 price tag. I call it the Wal-Mart affect, why should I pay $30 for a coffee cup when Wal-Mart sells them for $2? They associate ceramics with inexpensive utility wares, not handcrafted artisan pieces. They do not distinguish between handcrafted, and glazed with homemade glazes in say a wood fired, or high fire cone 10 kiln, and one that was cast along with millions more just like it in China. They do not put much of a value on things like that since it is "just a cup", yet they will spend $100 on a pair is sneakers, which I find funny because to me sneakers are not worth that much. For some the brand is worth paying more just to have that name on the product. This is where branding your items comes into play. As to regional differences in value. It can be like trying to sell heaters to people in Miami, and Maine sometimes. But, just because something is popular in an area does not mean higher value if there is a lot of competition in the area. It is probably a lot easier to get horse related items anywhere in Kentucky, than say Chicago Illinois where bullet proof vests would be more in demand..... When you have more of a corner on the local market you can charge more. Now the big wrench that got tossed onto the whole mess is...dum...dum...dum..... THE INTERNET.. Now you can sit at home, and sell to the entire planet. The competition has gone through the roof, so branding means so much more now. In other words, what makes your products stand out from the others, and why should I buy it at that price? It may not be the best, but better branding can make your items sell better than the competition. A good story to go with the item can make sales. It wasn't just forged from rebar, it was forged from rebar that was recovered from the Landmark hotel and casino in Fabulous Las Vegas Nevada that Howard Hughes lived in. Now the story needs to be factual, but you get what I mean. Rebar, is rebar, but rebar with a history, now THAT'S some rebar! . Uniqueness makes a lot of sales. It was heated in a "vintage" blacksmith coal fired forge, and formed on a 1907 Fisher anvil. Those descriptions of manufacture are far better than just I made that...... Some items just do not lend themselves to the internet though. Tandy leather tried going completely online back in the 90's, and closed all of their retail stores. That failed big time. Why. Because people like me really want to dig through the hides to be able to smell, and feel them when picking out the right one for a project. Also how , and where your item is sold on the internet can affect the perceived value. Your own dedicated website compared to say Etsy could make a big difference in perceived value. To me Etsy is for the home crafted items that stay at home moms are making, not high end items. I have also had issues with trying to find items on the site due to the volumes of products offered. Watch these two movies to get an idea about branding a product, and marketing arty items. Exit through the gift shop, is about Banksy the street artist. Con Artist, is about Mark Kostabi and it probably has the best line in it for artists when it comes to branding. Both can be found on Netflix, but I believe Con Artist is only available as a DVD not a streaming. Marketing is a whole world unto itself, and it will make the difference between just selling items, and making a profit on them. You need to look at so much more than just the items that you are selling IE; how you are dressed, and present yourself to customers, how you talk to them, how the booth looks, how the items are displayed, how the website is designed, how well the website gets navigated, the descriptions of the items, how well they are photographed, etc... All of these things play to people's perception of your items, and the value they place on it. Edited December 6, 2015 by BIGGUNDOCTOR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Frog Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 On Sat Dec 05 2015 09:16:42 GMT-0600, Forging Carver said: Is this your video on YouTube black frog? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvQhusikYxk Yes it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 Pricing. Any commercial concern makes or breaks on the bid. Pricing in other words and yes markets vary for all sorts of reasons. For the most part we aren't doing anything you can't pick up at a big box store for a fraction of the price, same for a ceramic coffee mug. (excellent example by the way, thank you.) Then we have the example of product selling better at $10/ea. than $5/ea. Why? I know a lot of you guys have read me say this a bunch of times already so go ahead and skip the rest. First, trying to explain how much your hand work is worth is kind of a no show. Blacksmiths shod horses, made . . . whatever for $0.50 back in the day and I can get one for $2.00 at Wally World. Getting people to agree that you doing it the hard way is worth more is darned hard. We've all heard the story over and over. No? It's the same one we just read about hand thrown pottery vs. factory cast ceramics. The thing you have to sell is "Bragging Rights." Folk don't brag about how inexpensive a pretty coffee cup was but they WILL brag about how expensive that obviously imperfect hand thrown coffee mug cost. At my first live demo I was making leaf finial coat hooks as they use so many different methods and I could knock them out in about 7-8 mins. while maintaining the patter and answer questions. I had them displayed on the table for $9.95 ea. and $35.95 for a set of four. Once in a while one would sell someone had watched being made, still warm from finish heat. Well, the . . . blankety blank . . . person I was associated with at the time kept telling me I needed to price them at $5.00 they weren't worth so much. So, while he was away at lunch or whatever I changed the price card to $19.95 ea. set of four $75.95 and couldn't keep samples on the table. By time they got back my table was cleared off and folk were lined up waiting while I made one for them. Bragging rights. And another rule of thumb I've found useful is. Under $20.00 that fits in a purse or pocket sells. At some of the local fairs when I go I see lots of potters and ceramics booths, things like bowls, jugs, cups, etc. seem fairly priced to me but you never see folk carrying one away and the displays seem to remain pretty stable. What you do see going like hot cakes are watch, key fobs, zipper pulls, pendants, ear rings, etc. Small bits often just a dollop of clay smooshed flat and impressed with a die or even just a rubber stamp. Rubber stamped with the customer's name is popular for key chains. These things are typically priced under $20.00 each. Anyway, that's been my experience but I'm only a hobbyist and I'm often wrong. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forging Carver Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 Ok thanks for the help. As far as your slitting punch and drift goes, what size stock (round or square) do you start with and can you get away with mild as I have seen a video by techinicus joe saying mild is good for begginers? Also, what size stock do you use for the opener and I suppose you use mild? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Frog Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 I think my punches are mostly just modified chisels from flea markets. I use drifts forged taper from standard round stock sizes to have a set. 1/4", 3/8", 1/2", 5/8", 3/4".... stock size for openers all depends on what the finished opener is supposed to be. In that video, that was 3/4" square because that's what I had on hand at the time. There's no reason that I can see to use anything other than mild steel for a bottle opener, unless there's a specific purpose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSW Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 1 hour ago, Forging Carver said: Ok thanks for the help. As far as your slitting punch and drift goes, what size stock (round or square) do you start with and can you get away with mild as I have seen a video by techinicus joe saying mild is good for begginers? Also, what size stock do you use for the opener and I suppose you use mild? Thanks Most of my drifts and punches are mild steel. I have a few for thick stock like 1" that are a high heat working steel like S7 or H13. That's because in very thick stock, the stock itself will heat and soften my punch/drift because it's significantly thinner than the stock is. a 1/16" x 3/16" slot punch isn't going to last long in 1" square if made of mild steel. Mild steel is cheap and easily available. You can make and use them without any special heat treating and if they get screwed up, either make a new one or reforge what you have. As a beginner, I'd suggest using mild for now. As far as material, I've seen them done in all sorts of things. Mild is common, but Nick did one in pattern forged steel not long ago shown above. I've also seen them done in stainless and bronze. ( I have some scrap 1" x 1/4" scrap 304 stainless I want to play with at some point) Pretty much if you can forge it, you can make one out of that material. Stupid disappearing posts issue won't let me post up my whole post again no matter how I try. GRRRRR! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forging Carver Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 Ok thanks. So from that I think I can say you don't heat treat? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panday Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 The opener I posted earlier was 1/2" square hot roll. (mild) I think I pay somewhere around $0.50-$0.85/ft. No heat treat necessary for openers. These are the punches/drifts I used for the openers I posted. Made from "sucker rod" which is discarded oilfield rod used to operate well pumps. They need the be dressed and heat treated currently (and frequently) but only takes me a few minutes to do with a torch. For reference sake, the slutter/punch is less than 1/8" wide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSW Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 I don't do anything to mild steel. It's not going to harden appreciably and any temper I would give it most likely would be lost hot working. If I'm repurposing an existing chisel to say a slitter, I try and keep it cool while regrinding so I don't run colors and don't have to mess with heat treating it. I also religiously cool the chisel to prevent colors from running when using it. Take one hit, dip and cool. Take hit #2, hit and cool etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 I use a slitter I learned to make from Brian Brazeal a couple summers ago. If you look at a chisel from the side, visualize the edge with a 60* angle like an axe is curved. Setting the angle is one of the only things I consistently use my swage block for by driving the slitter into one corner of a hex swage. The edges are beveled same as a hot or cold chisel but there are two that meet in a point at the center. I make mine from coil spring. I suppose you can get away with mild, especially for drifts but spring works so much better and you don't have to round up yard sale chisels though the punches can be modified reasonably easily. I drift it out till it'll fit the horn on my Soderfors and go from there. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forging Carver Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 Thanks for the great help. I suppose I will pick up some coil for the slitter and then either use it for the drifts or use mild for them. Do you have to go to the auto body for coil, or do you have to go to the junk yard? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSW Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 I've known my mechanic a long time, both personally and professionally. If I wanted coil springs I'm sure if I asked him, he'd save me any dead ones he changed out. he probably doesn't do many, so I might have a long wait. I also know a guy who does some scrapping. he rents space at a salvage yard, so I could probably get a used coil spring that way as well. Many yards here either don't want to sell to individuals as they process the scrap as soon as they get it, or they ask mint prices for used stock. The days where I could go to a yard and pull stuff off old vehicles dirt cheap are pretty much long gone in my area. I have used a commercial spring shop over in Trenton, but it's a haul to get there. Between the fuel to drive to see them and the tolls over the bridge on a Class 3 truck, it's probably cheaper for me to simply buy new stock than try to "save" money on used stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forging Carver Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 alright thanks for the help. I would imagine it being a pain to get the spring off a car at the junk yard? Maybe I am better off with some mild for now. Sorry because I know this really isnt about bottle openers. Thanks again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panday Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 If you have a "self service" wrecking yard near you, you can usually just walk around and find them laying on the ground. The closest one to me charges $10 for the spring and like $5 to get in. Otherwise you can check Craigslist etc for people parting out an old vehicle. I hate it when you forget a step on something and mess up your piece trying to do it later. Case in point, I forgot to punch this for a strap before I did the pinapple twist and dented the crap out of it trying to punch afterward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Still a darned nice pineapple twist Panday. I prefer to do the twists first it makes the transition to other shapes much smoother and cleaner. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forging Carver Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 My dad gave me an old jack hammer bit the other day that I ground into a v shape for a slitter. All I need is to make a drift and I will be set. I found that I like the openers that start out with a thicker square stock then tapered to a thinner size for the opener better than starting with flat stock. To me it looks much better but is probably much more work. Thanks for the help everyone. Also that video helped me lots BlackFrog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panday Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 49 minutes ago, Frosty said: Still a darned nice pineapple twist Panday. I prefer to do the twists first it makes the transition to other shapes much smoother and cleaner. Frosty The Lucky. Thank you. The problem I have is specifically with punching the eye for a hanging strap after the twist. If I try to punch the hole afterward I end up either denting the handle on the bolster or flatten out the points on the twist. This one I dented and drew it out a bit to try to planish out and hide the dents. The angle I took this picture at hides most of it. Although the need for a hanging strap on a tool with a glaringly obvious hole to hang it from confounds me, they sure sell better with one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beammeupscotty Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 I sold some bottle openers this weekend...about $1000.00 worth in fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.