ethical question

[ausfire]

When is scrap art not 100% scrap? Am I stretching the truth if I label a piece as recycled if it uses new components?

Case in point is my scrap art lizards, made from shifting spanners (adjustable wrenches). Now, there are only so many broken/unusable/seized/old shifting spanners in existence and when you need to make a lot of these to meet consumer demand, you have to source the spanners from elsewhere. Enter Bunnings … our major hardware retailer that sells these 150mm (6 inch) rubbish Chinese shifters for a few bucks.

So I buy a heap of these and start turning out shifty lizards. Question is … can I still legitimately label them as recycled, when they are bought new? Repurposed perhaps. They certainly fit the description of scrap art or junk art because no one would use these spanners for anything serious, even though they have the 'heavy duty' assurance cast on the side.  You can bend them cold - not much use for anything, but they do make good lizards.

So the dilemma is - Can I market these as recycled creations, when the spanners are bought new??

[JustAnotherViking]

I would assume the rest of the material is 'recycled'? (eyes, legs, tail)... in which case, I don't see an issue.

It's not like you're deliberately trying to mislead people, advertising it as a vintage, gluten free, responsibly sourced, fair trade, antique, artisanal, free range product with certificate of provenance... it's a bit of 'scrap art'.... and given your description of the wrenches, they sound like scrap despite being 'new'.

No doubt, they are manufactured from steel that has been recycled many times over.

Since they don't sound fit for purpose, you are in the true sense of the word, recycling them.

[Buzzkill]

If it bothers you then don't do it.  You are not required to make a claim either way.   It's still scrap art whether the wrenches were new or used.  You could also use the technically correct, but misleading phrase often used in advertising: "Made with 100% XYZ"  where in your case the XYZ's are recycled materials.  Phrased that way it doesn't mean that 100% of the materials are recycled, just that some of the components are 100% recycled.

[Daswulf]

If you look up the definition, you certainly Are recycling them. You're fine Aus. You are turning a barely usable tool into much treasured art. The tool would get an attempt at use, then the user would get mad and throw it away. You are just saving a step in the process. And saving peoples knuckles. lol

[MC Hammer]

Just say they are made with some recycles materials.  That covers you either way and you can sell them with a clear conscience if it bothers you.  

[Reeltree]

Think of it this way,, they are china junk to begin with even if new, so yes you can rationally say you are recycling junk. 

[Glenn]

Is it still 100% recycled material if you use NEW welding wire to glue them together?

[Frosty]

Recycle means to "turn again," it has nothing, ZERO, to do with it's age, condition or whatever. So long as they're no longer what they were sold as they've been ReCycled. You're literally Turning them into something else, giving them another turn.

The term has become a buzzword that is marginally accurate and not a bad thing. Folk assume recycled used to be junk, trash, whatever it was saved from the landfill. I like this it's a good thing. It's just not a legal description that'd stand up in court as long as you don't specify WHAT it's recycled from. 

Heck, I'd take a shot at making "Recycled Brand New Junk!" a slogan and see how it sells. 

You're good Aus, you're not recycling beer into the wind. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[John McPherson]

Buying old worn out wrenches is "post consumer" recycling, buying them from a local business (and supporting the local economy) is local recycling, buying them online from alibaba and having them shipped  halfway around the world to your doorstep would be direct recycling.

And it would not matter if you were turning horseshoes into crosses or ball peen hammers into tomahawks, as many other crafts persons do. As long as you do the actual work, and don't farm it out under the table, it is ethical.

[Lou L]

In ethics (or any other school of philosophy) you have to start by defining your terms.  If you (or your customers) define “scrap” as “that which has fallen out of use and entered into the waste stream” then you are not being honest with your customers.  However, if your definition of scrap is “those materials for which the owner has no other purpose” then you are ethically sound.  If you believe that your customers have the expectation that you rooted around at a scrap yard for 100% of your parts then you are not meeting the parameters.

To complicate it, one has to determine whose definition of “scrap” should be the normative one.  Are you required to meet the expectations of each customer or should the label you apply to your work adhere to your definitions?  One could argue that the buyers have a right since they are investing capital into the purchase.  Conversely, it could also be argued that your labor capital gives you the right to choose what the items are and what definitions abide.

I tend to lean in the direction that your definition takes precedent.  This is, in my opinion, because one also has to take into account Intent.   Because you truly believe the wrenches to be useless for their original purpose, your intent is that you are finding a better purpose for the material.  Therefore, the wrenches fall into both working definitions of “scrap” at least partially.

 

If you want an example of a truly unethical practice try this on for size.  A friend of mine propositioned me with a business venture.  He wanted to buy loads of commercially made cheap hooks and other “blacksmithy” stuff and take it to a craft fair.  There he would sell them as handmade while I worked at the anvil making similar items in the background.  I declined.  Still not sure if he was really serious.

[SLAG]

Dr. Lou,

Your friend suggested that both of you pass mass-produced hooks as hand smithed items.

I am glad that you declined that "business opportunity".

The claim is fraudulent, a material misrepresentation.

Selling the hook with such a claim,  (made by him), constitutes fraud.

(indeed a very clumsy attempt at fraud,  as it would be easily discovered.

You're a good man and an honest one, and it shows.

SLAG.

 

 

[ThomasPowers]

To toss in another gedanken example: Are drops scrap?  They generally qualify as "unused" material...

[Frosty]

Dr. Lou: You assume sir that "recycled" means making use of scraps or discards. That is not what re-cycled means.

As to your ethical position, isn't "buyer beware." a legal term?  Tell the judge the used car you bought broke days afterwards and s/he'll ask if you had your mechanic look at it before you paid for it. If the answer is yes, you're suing the wrong person. If no, tough, you didn't do due diligence.

Thomas: Not according to the fab shops. Scraps are pieces too small to be used. Drops are just too small to be practical for most projects. I've heard it put different ways but the meaning holds pretty well.

Frosty The Lucky.

[the iron dwarf]

they are plated so maybe you dont want to weld on them Aus

here black ones are nearly as common as plated

[JustAnotherViking]

7 hours ago, Lou L said:

to buy loads of commercially made cheap hooks and other “blacksmithy” stuff and take it to a craft fair.  There he would sell them as handmade

This is an interesting example (whilst his business proposal would be fraudulent), what if you were to take the commercially produced item, throw it into the forge, modify it somehow, and then finish with oil/wax, and then sell it?

If we are making a hook from scratch, we don't lift a 3" square bar and draw it out; we start with stock as close to the finished dimensions as possible.

Where does the ethics committee fall when it comes to modifying and selling something in this regard? With a hook, you might say no, it's unethical (depending on how it's marketed), but how about buying rose blanks, or some other mass produced laser cut shape which increases the profit margin rather than the time spent cutting them yourself? Similar, yes/no?

[ausfire]

Some interesting perspectives there, thank you.

I particularly like Das's way of thinking. So I buy these spanners,  try them on a stuck nut and find them useless. Throw them in the bin and then rescue them as usable junk.

JAK raises a good point about rose blanks. I've done a few roses with the laser-cut blanks, although I prefer to cut my own. I guess it's a bit dodgy to sell them as 'hand forged' even though you have done all the actual forge work.

And yes, Iron Dwarf, the chrome is stripped before welding.

This discussion opens up yet more ethical questions, mainly involving the use of terms such as recycled, hand-forged, hand-made, etc. What would the aforementioned ethics committee have to say about my hand-forged leaf hooks if I occasionally get a bit lazy and drill the screw holes rather than punch them by hand? And I used a drop saw to cut the stock to size, too. It's a fine line isn't it? Perhaps we just go with what we can live with.

[John McPherson]

To really get this out in a shades of grey area ( nowhere close to 50.... yet), we can talk about sole authorship vs helpers when putting your name or brand on a product.

Say that you take in a close relative or child of a family friend as an apprentice. They start out sweeping the shop and breaking up coal, but progress to running the chop saw and grinder on your preforms. Is that any different than buying laser cut blanks?

Are they allowed to do any of the forging, twisting, fitment, final grinding and polishing, and you still put your name on it and charge for it?

How about sending the completed product out to a powder coater, or a commercial heat treatment service, is that cheating?

Where do the knife sheaths and mounting screws and wooden tool handles come from? You working kydex, turning threads on a lathe, ranching cows for leather, growing ash and hickory on the back 40?

Historically, especially in the craft guilds, the answer wound be an emphatic yes to the role of allied trades, and rules for apprentices and journeymen. They were not allowed to handle money or negotiate, but all work leaving the shop bore the Master's stamp. How else were they going to learn?

We have a huge skills gap in the US, and a couple of years in a community college setting does not turn out a well-rounded journeyman, the best you can hope for is a qualified apprentice. That is why all the ads want someone with 3 to 5 years of field experience.

Gosh, it is almost like it takes a seven year apprenticeship to turn out a useful, independent craftsperson. Who knew?

[JHCC]

What is this “sweeping the shop” of which you speak?

[Lou L]

Frosty, I was quibbling on the definition of “scrap” not “recycled”.  And, of course there are more definitions than the two I offered.  Redefining terms in order to arrive at new and novel conclusions is the philospher’s stock and trade!

Slag, I don’t think my friend really intended to do that either...but, yes, I have a moral streak.  Still, morality is actually selfish.  We do good things because we want to be accepted and valued to others.

Viking, If you billed people appropriately because you had much less time invested in the item then I would think it to be fair.  They get a forged item at cost that appeals to them.  In fact, if you called them “reforged” and made your methods clear I think people would still be willing to pay for the forged aesthetic.

Aus,  that is an interesting slippery slope.  How much of an item”s structure has to be hand forged for it to actually hand forged.  If you hand forge a knife but then use files and grinders to get it to final shape and create the final bevels is it no longer hand forged?  Does “forged” imply “brought to final dimensions and finished” or does it mean “roughly shaped?  

 

In our modern context  text I would argue that “hand forged” is akin to “hand made” in meaning.  For most people I assume the terms are a contract declaring that a thing is not made in a factory by a team of people and is, instead, created by one person or a small team who put special attention into the object.  The unique qualities imbued on the item during its creation give it its value.  A hand forged hook won’t hang a pot any better than a factory made one, after all.

 

[ThomasPowers]

And in early factories there may been a large number of smiths working at separate forge making items---Like in Samuel Yellin's business.

As for pricing do you decrease the price as less time was spent on sourcing the materials; or do you increase it because the materials cost more?   Always a problem when making items from "found materials".  Buyers tend to get snarky when you run out of the free/cheap stuff and have to buy new and the price goes up for essentially the same item!   I was told to price things with the materials costed at the replacement price; not necessarily the price I originally got them for.  (After all if you were selling a gold ring you bought when gold was US$35 an ounce; would you not sell it at today's spot price?)

[Frosty]

When I shot some holes in I beam with home made copper solids out of my 12 ga. they punched right through was I blacksmithing? Could I sell it as forged I beam? 

Yes you were Lou, well quibbled sir. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

A Forged Hand Forged Item?

[Frosty]

I was once told firmly it wasn't traditional blacksmithing if I used tools. The audience didn't say a word, we all just waited to hear how that worked but he left instead. 

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[arftist]

If you are using 6" long Chinese adjustable wrenches you are certainly using scrap by any definition.

[ausfire]

On 9/30/2018 at 3:30 PM, arftist said:

 

 I sometimes think my Dowidat wrench and the British made Garrington Jackdaw wrench in my toolbox laugh at the Chinese interlopers, knowing that they are safe from becoming lizards. I never use the good stuff for scrap art. Just wouldn't be respectful.