JHCC Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 So, does the anvil's elasticity change as it absorbs heat from the workpieces over the course of the day? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 But of course and let's not forget eddy current braking as you you swing your hammer across the earth's magnetic field! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 Just now, ThomasPowers said: But of course and let's not forget eddy current braking as you you swing your hammer across the earth's magnetic field! Another good reason to have a large scrap pile: as a magnetic field damper! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mtnstream Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 Don't forget about the humidity in the shop, those water particles can decrease the efficiency of a well aimed hammer blow....especially if the slack tub is nearby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 Does the humidity affect the eddies in the magnetic flow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thief_Of_Navarre Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 My brain hurts.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 Magnetic brain eddies Quick move your tongue to the other cheek! Frosty The Lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc1 Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 Interesting subject the one about stands ... I always tried to explain without success why it is not possible to "make" a 100lb anvil into a 200lb anvil by strapping / bolting / welding it to a 100lb stand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasent Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 If you believe it makes a difference then it does. If you don't believe then it dosent. I think our minds and how we perceive things have a great affect on the out come Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 Was wondering about this and if it's feasible to make an anvil stand from reinforced concrete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EJRailRoadTrack Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 1 minute ago, Irondragon Forge & Clay said: Was wondering about this and if it's feasible to make an anvil stand from reinforced concrete. That's what power hammers are mounted on. Seems doable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 See this is why I love you guys.. I bet not one of you works on a wonkie stand or on an anvil that is not solidly mounted on a regular basis if you can help it.. So, what I am saying is.. Make the stand right or to the best of ones ability with the understanding that any give in the stand will lead to less work per hammer hit and yes 10 degrees in temperature does equate to less or more performed for a given function.. What is one thing that just about becomes a mantra to new students.. "Heat your steel up, it's to cold".. While 10 degrees doesn't mean much the effect of all things combined makes it tough to work to a higher level.. I work on others equipment once in awhile and find the same things over and over.. Takes nothing to make a mount solid.. I am merely sharing what lengths I go to, to get the performance I want.. And design and fabricate to that standard with plenty of good ol fashion trial and error just for the fun of it.. (not really).. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McPherson Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 Since good pictures are worth many words, I attached a few from my archives. All are of big to HUGE anvils, solidly mounted. Suitable for teams of strikers with sledge hammers, or twisting big stock. The biggest Refflinghaus on an open box made from heavy plate by an expert fabricator. A concrete anvil column with rebar. A RR shop special, 701 lb Hay-Budden with matching cast iron stand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeepinJoe Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 13 hours ago, Irondragon Forge & Clay said: Was wondering about this and if it's feasible to make an anvil stand from reinforced concrete. Yes. Concrete is great in compression. Not so good in tension. For the rebar I would make a checker board top mat that ties into the vertical rods. You will want 2" of concrete coverage over the rebar mat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 On 7/25/2017 at 2:46 PM, Frosty said: Did I say a sloppy stand is okay, anywhere EVER? If I did, please link me and I'll correct it immediately. You once said in reply to a post of mine, justifiably admittedly, that you don't like to argue. However you don't mind interpreting numbers in an exaggerated manner to try to make a point. You seem to equate a millionth of an inch in increased deflection as one blow in a million or was it one part in a million. That is just argumentative to no point. It doesn't equate except in . . . . Nevermind. No you did not.. But ths thread is not all about you.. Again its about sharing information.. On 7/25/2017 at 2:46 PM, Frosty said: I certainly can tell the difference in stands, good ones to good ones, good anvils from great anvils. What does that mean? Or are you trying to imply by differing with you I lack the experience to judge? If your anvil wanders when you use the ends or sides, sweep your floor. Or, mount it on a round plate and wipe a bit of silicone calk on the bottom. NO don't glue it to the floor, squirt a bit on the bottom, wipe it around with a rag and let it dry. It won't go anywhere without lifting it off the floor. I'm not taking any of this personally, you just trigger my debate mode and I used to eat your kinds of argument for snacks. You argue angels dancing on pin heads and I say we don't live in that world. Even CNC machine shops don't usually work to the mil and we're talking about hand hammers and eyeballs. If a person REALLY wants to know if their anvil stand compresses under a 5lb. hammer driven by a human being. Clean the floor and cut a glass rod to fit between the anvil or stand and the floor, give the anvil a smack and see if the rod breaks. If it breaks then cut a soft aluminum rod to fit, measure it, place it, give it a smack and and measure how much it's been compressed. If anybody wants to know how to actually measure this stuff rather than fantasize about absolutes give me a shout I'll drag out the materials lab references on testing and equipment design. Field testing should do for most but . . . let me know. I wish we could sit at a coffee shop or work together in the shop Jennifer we both enjoy arguing, it'd be fun. Frosty The Lucky. Frosty now why did you go and get all silly.. Again, your information here to test it to the millionth or what ever is just silly.. You can see it and feel it as you work.. Why would you have to test for it. You guys seem to forget there are a lot of newer people who are looking for information.. While there are a million ways to mount and anvil and there are certainly better or worse ways.. All the dribble about how much flex or deviation or saying that springiness does not have to be accounted for is just ridiculous.. I do what I have found works consistently in the best way for my methods.. Really I don't argue.. I just give up.. It become not worth my time.. If there are better ways and to not acknowledge the ideas, shows a very immature attitude.. LOL.. There is a reason why anvils have a certain weight ratio to hammers and that ratio is still a compromise.. As is the case with a power hammer and foundation.. Your anvil stand is the foundation.. You don't find the information I shared worth it.. don't read it.. It's not meant for the guys who have it all figured out.. Wanna correct it.. Go for it.. But hey, you know all this stuff and your experience might be different or it may be true but you are willing to accept the bounce you have.. Besides that , there are a lot of super smart people on here who do amazing work.. It's all good... I just do what ever I want anyhow.. My stance , stands on making as solid a mount for anything you are going to be pounding on whether it's a vise, anvil, work bench, power hammer, all applies.. Everybody will do exactly as they want.. More power to them.. You have seen my work. It speaks for itself.. Good or bad. I'm just getting warmed up.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 I got silly. . . well maybe, can't help that, I'm a silly guy. However I believe you responded to the difference in deflection CITE I provided by saying if you made a million items and the better stand resulted in a million and ONE it was worth it. My entire argument is expending money and effort beyond the point of diminishing returns. I got carried away and rambly. Shoot me. My anvils bounce? Either of them? Upon what do you base your assumption? Oh okay, I suppose if someone smacked my Soderfors hard enough on the tip of horn or heal you could get it and the stand to rock. Neither CAN bounce because they're on angled legs. We don't even disagree except in the matter of degree. We have enough trouble trying to prevent new folk from wasting endless time and money searching for "Perfect" tools and materials so I had to say something about a degree of "better" it'd take laser interferometry to measure. I'm a huge fan of taking things to ridiculous extremes and beyond. It's just so rarely practical. Speaking of diminishing returns. . . We sometimes set each other off don't we? Frosty The Lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 "These violent delights have violent ends And in their triumph die, like fire and powder, Which as they kiss consume." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 26 minutes ago, Frosty said: I got silly. . . well maybe, can't help that, I'm a silly guy. However I believe you responded to the difference in deflection CITE I provided by saying if you made a million items and the better stand resulted in a million and ONE it was worth it. My entire argument is expending money and effort beyond the point of diminishing returns. I got carried away and rambly. Shoot me. My anvils bounce? Either of them? Upon what do you base your assumption? Oh okay, I suppose if someone smacked my Soderfors hard enough on the tip of horn or heal you could get it and the stand to rock. Neither CAN bounce because they're on angled legs. We don't even disagree except in the matter of degree. We have enough trouble trying to prevent new folk from wasting endless time and money searching for "Perfect" tools and materials so I had to say something about a degree of "better" it'd take laser interferometry to measure. I'm a huge fan of taking things to ridiculous extremes and beyond. It's just so rarely practical. Speaking of diminishing returns. . . We sometimes set each other off don't we? Frosty The Lucky. Yes, the cited information is correct.. The discussions we as a group have had for anvil height, body stance, etc etc.. All play into a limiting factor of there is only so many everythings with the body.. If I can get a 1/2 of % out of each hammer stroke with an increase in moving metal I will take it.. Or course a larger percentage is always better... I like getting 5% return on credit card cash back, 1% is better than 0... Anything is better than 0.. Someone starting out now has so many opportunities because of the easy access to not only the web but also local support groups.. ABANA has set standards for forge skills.. While I can work on any equipment even if it is skating across the floor or even not level or the blower doesn't work right.. It doesn't mean I want to for any length of time.. It's funny to me now, but really I have done the math with less than stellar mounts (not literally math) but working on wonky stands and equipment and while starting out doesn't need to be expensive as I am all for ALO's and dirt forges and such.. I even enjoy working on these things.. If there is a better more effective way for me to work to preserve my body while being effective.. I am all for it.. Best thing is with anything the only way to get good at something is to throw caution to the wind and go for it.. I used to make 50 or even 100 of something just to get better.. It was all fun.. Yes, we do.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 See? We do agree, 0.5% is significant and well worth designing for, we both have good reasons for preferring our set ups. I make no bones about not being a pro smith and my shop reflects someone who isn't interested in turning a profit. I still want my equipment to function optimally so it has to fit me. I draw from a number of skills I learned, not the least of which being Karate where I learned how to impart the most energy to the target, hence how I grip and swing a hammer. A SLIGHT change in finger position lets me hit harder for half the work without fatiguing or injuring myself. It works well on almost any anvil close to the right height without much adjustment. It is about sharing information and voicing strong opinions, it makes it worth hanging out here. It's good to get in a sort of heated discussion with an adult. I savor differing opinions or even just view points on the same one. Just remember kids, when throwing caution to the wind, throw carefully. A little different way of saying that is, "Don't take counsel of your fears." You can only study on and fret about something so long without study and fret becoming your goal. Frosty The Lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 1 minute ago, Frosty said: when throwing caution to the wind, throw carefully. Or at least, downwind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyBiker Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 New guy here. (New to anything & everything concerning metal working.) Just made this stand for my RR rail anvil. Some old banding from a whisky barrel & hand cut nails from another project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 Welcome aboard Grumpy, glad to have you. Nice stand. Have you checked out the vertical rail anvils? Charles Stevens posted a few in a thread showing some of the tooling you can make in the ends. Vertical also gives a much better depth of rebound and so is more effective at moving metal. I'm not dissing the anvil you've made, it has a splendid horn and will be an outstanding bench anvil once you have a more heavy duty one. Frosty The Lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 2 hours ago, GrumpyBiker said: New guy here. (New to anything & everything concerning metal working.) Just made this stand for my RR rail anvil. Some old banding from a whisky barrel & hand cut nails from another project. Nice stand,, I like the anvil also. Good job on the horn.. Are the timbers through drilled and bolted also? Is the anvil glued down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyBiker Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 9 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said: Nice stand,, I like the anvil also. Good job on the horn.. Are the timbers through drilled and bolted also? Yeah, the banding is hiding the counter sunk bolt heads. Theyre gorilla glued & lag bolted with steel scrap in the voids. I know function is more important than form, but I do have to look at it! and sometimes I like to just be out in my shop. Not doing anything but being around my stuff. If that makes any sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 My shop has a sign featuring Bender from Futurama: "Work while bent" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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