KRS Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 https://www.revealnews.org/article/this-tool-cuts-fingers-and-gashes-faces-but-shipbuilder-still-uses-it/ Would not have expected this in the land of OSHA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 <cringe> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 Note those jobs were not covered by the safety legislation by a prior agreement---it's covered in the story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anachronist58 Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 Disgusting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackdawg Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 Sounds like just the tool to offer free vasectomies to Austal's management with....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 The good news is that we now have this to point to, should anyone on IFI suggest such a modification to their angle grinder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 There's already a "similar" carving one for woodworking with similar dangers. Reading the article, if the tool company expressly says NOT to use such blades on their tools and the Employer says they have to use them; then I think there maybe a basis for that suit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Cochran Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 I have also seen the ones for woodwork and they scare the crap out of me. I've had a couple injuries from a grinder and a couple close calls and wouldn't even consider using something like either of those wheels. I know a lawyer/district judge and if I can think of it the next time I see him I'll bring this to his attention and see what he says. But I'd have to say it definitely sounds like gross negligence on the part of the company. I don't think I could work there if they told me that's what I had to use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daswulf Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 I'd like to see management physically prove that the tool is safe and that it was just employee carelessness. Put one in their hands and have them use it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 As a blacksmithing forum we do not provide legal advice, This the stuff you take to a lawyer and seek their advice. They can tell you about your rights and options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLAG Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 The company has laid itself wide open to potential sanctions in Civil gross negligence law. Criminal and/or civil assault and battery law, with grievous bodily harm. Conspiracy to do same. Contravention of OSHA and other Federal and State and statutes regulations. Etc. The fact situation of this case will constitute an attorney's dream litigation. Negligence is evident on the face of the record. It does not even have to be proved. (There is no question of the company-defendant's duty of care. As the potential plaintiff is an employee of the company. The negligence was foreseeable, the company, also, had prior notice. And there is no question of proximate cause. It is a given and not in question.) I will not get into a long write up of those laws and concepts, nor the given specific fact record, here. But let me point out several important facts. No person nor company and, for that matter government, is allowed to ignore nor flout the law. Not even the President of the U.S. If that were so there would not be a credible, functional, nor predictable legal system. There would eventually be the law of vendetta and personal retribution. The tool manufacturer, and the company were on notice that such misuse was dangerous and strongly warned against. There had been previous accidents and injuries that are public record. The company knew this. Their warning was printed on the tool and brochure, advising against such misuse But they forced their personnel to ignore the danger as it was expedient to them. Wanton recklessness is no defense. It will go to enhanced awarded damages. No company can do such things and get away with it, for long. OSHA should have intervened. They should do so now. That is their mandate. OSHA and other government agencies that are charged with such matters, should do so stat. If they do not, private individuals or organizations have a right to sue in court to request a judicial "writ of mandamus" that would force such an investigation. That court order would take the form of a positive injunction. If on the very remote chance that they refused to do so, they would be open to contempt of court citations and its ensuing very serious consequences. This is not 1885. The law has changed drastically since then. There is no going back . If any of the readers are personally involved in this matter, consult an attorney, or legal aid, as the case may be. Specific facts and local legal jurisprudence are vital ingredients in this legal situation. SLAG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 The workers can and should refuse to use it and put it in writing if management tries to put ANY pressure on them the law suits for wrongful termination and punitive damages would attract plenty of high power lawyers. Ran into a similar situation with a wood chipper and an anger management issue afflicted foreman one time. There aren't many firing offense for a State Employee, refusing an "order" being one. I refused on the radio, he threatened and I suggested he pile his fat butt out of his pickup and look at the situation. Nope, he threatened to terminate me over the radio I offered to put my refusal in writing. Funny, no mid level management wanted anything to do with it was dropped. Nothing but NOTHING will bring management to heal like putting THEIR jobs on the line. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donniev Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 Aren't angle grinders run at around 13,000 rpm? This thing scares me just looking at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy k Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 For one thing, it the previous post it looks as if the blade is on backwards. Yes, this may be a very dangerous looking tool but they work well when used correctly. I have used a circular saw with a 7-1/4" carbide blade for beveling 8" aluminum pipe for welding, with great and fast success. One has to be aware of the dangers and use the tool in a way to lessen the danger along with using your brain. No - this is not for everyone, but those that use tools like this daily it is not an issue. Any tool can be dangerous when not used it a "correct way". I have never had a smaller blade like above for an angle grinder but I could and would use it many times in my line of work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc1 Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 There is no "correct way" to use an angle grinder with an attachment that is not designed for it. A circular saw and an angle grinder are not comparable tools by any stretch of the imagination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRS Posted March 3, 2017 Author Share Posted March 3, 2017 (edited) In general I would agree to the point that dangerous tools used correct are controllable, but when you say that for those that use this specific tool daily its not a issue I disagree. By the numbers given in the article there is every Month one injury, while 4000 use it. The later number is bit fishy and if correct disturbing because: Quote Austal leaders have said they expect to -- increase employment from 1,800 to about 4,000 over the next few years. http://blog.al.com/press-register-business/2012/03/austal_usa_receives_2_more_con.html This would mean that every single person on the yard would work with this tool. Circular saws are far safer but I acknowledge that there are restrictions to the tools and if you need to get it done you get it done. But the practice in this yards give me the impression that they just hand it to everyone and say go with it, because its cheap and fast. Edit: If they would have given a limited number of people instructions & better PPE and only those are allowed to use it maybe there would be less injuries. What they did is like handing a chainsaw to everyone (in my humble outsider opinion) Edited March 3, 2017 by KRS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc1 Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 It is not a matter of a dangerous tool that needs to be used with care. It is a matter of a modified tool that is using a circular saw blade not designed for it. A grinder spins at 12 to 13,000 rpm, a circular saw at 4 to 5,000 rpm. The blades are designed to spin at 5,000 not more. The blade at that speed and with that low number of teeth, will invariably kick back and maim the operator that is so foolish to use such contraption. What is next? A chainsaw modified to spin a ceiling fan? There are attachments to carve wood that look a bit like a circular saw but the profile of the teeth is different and we are talking wood not metal. For metal the teeth count should be about 4 times higher and the profile of the cutting edge different. Plus the blade will have to be engineered for 13,000 rpm. And that is used in a shipyard? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 1 minute ago, Marc1 said: What is next? A chainsaw modified to spin a ceiling fan? Ask, and you shall receive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc1 Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 There are a couple of angle grinder looking contraptions available, that use a geared down dual blade counter rotating thingy to address the kick back issue but they don't go past the hobby market. And they have a handle similar to a circular saw that makes them safer. 17 minutes ago, JHCC said: Ask, and you shall receive. I like it but that is a chandelier not a ceiling fan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 8 minutes ago, Marc1 said: I like it but that is a chandelier not a ceiling fan Picky, picky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kozzy Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 That type of tool is SOP for back-chipping welds when making aluminum boats. Most of the time they use about a 3" blade on an air tool with a little longer "neck" to reach better. After welding one side of the AL shell seams, you go back and chip a groove on the plate about halfway through the other side to remove oxidation from the first weld and insure full penetration. Then the seams are all welded from that other side to finish the job. The common name for the tool on the "west coast" of the usa is "Meat Axe" for obvious reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc1 Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 A smaller diameter blade would have a much lower tangential speed and with the right (higher) number of teeth and the lower rotating mass of an air tool, compared to an electric motor, it is clearly a better proposition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRS Posted March 4, 2017 Author Share Posted March 4, 2017 Reminder: The Grinder pictured is only for illustration, the fact that the blade is mounted backwards should tell us that it may not be exactly what is used in the ship yard. Picture credit is by another author from the page, Julie Dermansky. Kozzy, "Meat Axe" has helped me to find this thread: Link removed due to language Exactly like you explained: Quote We were cautioned never to use this blade on an electric grinder. There is to much torque and speed in an electric grinder. Of course one of my guy had to try it that way. He jammed it in a corner and it jumped out at him at 10,000rpm. He was lucky only the grinder hit him in the head. ( no blood or stitches ) This shop still advertises this specific blade to be used in a electric grinder: 4-1/2x30t aluminum miller blade part # sk4-1/2-30tcg for back gouging aluminum when welding. Leaves a clean "u" shaped channel. used for milling, clean up and grooving of aluminum welds and cutting out welding tacks. used mainly in the marine industry in a hand held grinder. these are custom made by skookum tools to industry specifications. May be sharpened many times. "other names this tool is known by are: the skookum, meat axe, meat eater, lethal, miller, back groover, aluminum groover , back gouger, aluminum gouger." Stay safe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackdawg Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 Saw a photo of a grinder with a cutting wheel on it embedded in a blokes throat on farcebook last night. No amount of speed or ease of use is worth an injury like these things do. graphic image in the link, rather than posting here for people to get unexpectedly. link removed due to language Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted May 1, 2017 Share Posted May 1, 2017 On 3/3/2017 at 1:32 AM, jeremy k said: For one thing, it the previous post it looks as if the blade is on backwards. Yes, this may be a very dangerous looking tool but they work well when used correctly. I have used a circular saw with a 7-1/4" carbide blade for beveling 8" aluminum pipe for welding, with great and fast success. One has to be aware of the dangers and use the tool in a way to lessen the danger along with using your brain. No - this is not for everyone, but those that use tools like this daily it is not an issue. Any tool can be dangerous when not used it a "correct way". I have never had a smaller blade like above for an angle grinder but I could and would use it many times in my line of work. This post is unbelievable to me. I don't understand why it hasn't been deleted or even how someone with so little thought towards safety ever became an administrator here. I am an aluminum fabricator, I use skil saws to cut aluminum constantly, have for decades. This is NOTHING like a skil saw. It isn't a skil saw blade it is a cutter for a stationary milling machine which weighs thousands of pounds and having a max speed of a couple thousand rpm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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