Taking others' ideas...is it OK?

[2Tim215]

That's like taking every painter in the world and every musician in the world and telling them they are not allowed to practice there chosen art form because I garantee you that somone else has done it before. If an artist paints a particular scene, is that scene now restricted to all other artists? If somone forges a harp are all harps copies of his work. Every artist has a particular style of doing things so even if you try to copy the exact same piece it will still be uniqely yours. Anyone who says otherwise in my book is just afraid of competition.

 

Plagiarism is the "wrongful appropriation" and "stealing and publication" of another author's "language, thoughts, ideas, or expressions" and the representation of them as one's own original work and everyone is guilty of it in one form or another. But plagiarism in it's correct definition applies to litireture and not always to art so if it bothers you then give credit where credit is due if you use anothers work as a foundation for a piece you are making.

[bird]

Seems like some of our language is getting in the way. There is a difference between "influence" and "imitation." The difference is what you put into it.

Saying "there is nothing new under the sun" is not- and should never be- intended to justify or give license to copy anyone else's work. Think of forging like a language. The tools and techniques we use are like the syntax and grammar. The forged elements are like vocabulary. The fact that we all use the same words and structures in order to communicate doesn't mean that we can't write and say new things that have never been written or said before. Very few of us will ever be able to honestly say we have invented a technique for blacksmithing, but the application of techniques often yields unique designs. It isn't a matter of how well you copy or if you are capable of an exact replica. Paraphrasing is still plagiarism.

We can probably all bring to mind a few smiths whose work is of a distinctive style that is recognizable as "theirs." Maybe even there are groups of smiths working in like style that may one day be referred to as a "school." They use the same techniques and processes we all use, and none of us should claim to work without influence, but still, some have managed to build a body of work that is recognizably distinct. That doesn't mean they don't have influences. It means they've gone beyond them. Learning aside, to copy someone's distinct work for profit is wrong. Even to mimic that style, without crediting the influence is wrong.

If you copy someone else's work to learn from it, that should be viewed as something like journeyman work regardless of where in your career you might be. Claim the skills, such as they are, but give credit to the designer for the design. And if you copy the work of a living working craftsman, don't sell it without his or her permission.

Absorb and process all your influences. Learn all the techniques you can use. Aspire to design work that is yours. Become an influence on others.

Bottle openers have been around as long a bottle caps. Horses for longer. I call that public domain. If you discover a truly novel way to open a bottle, get a patent.


PS: Matt- I bet you don't keep the "Samuel Yellin" stamp next to the treadle hammer. Now that would be wrong. Cheers!

[Ratel10mm]

If you're in an art gallery or similar, you'll usually see signs saying 'please respect the artist's copyright - no photography' or something similar.
I was always taught not to take photos without the artist's permission, and that theremin a great difference between taking inspiration from others' work, and simply copying others' work.
If you get prrmission to copy the work, then that's fine. :)

[Neil Blythin]

I'd agree with you Ratel... *If* it's an original work.

That's a large part of the issue here. Just because someone is the first or most prominent seller of a particular item on Etsy, doesn't mean that's their entirely new and unique design.

[Gerald Boggs]

We can probably all bring to mind a few smiths whose work is of a distinctive style that is recognizable as "theirs."

Could you provide an example.  I can't think of anyone who has a style so distinct, that it's recognizable as "theirs"  I know smiths who show the influence of whom they trained with.  But the next level up is the same, showing the influence of those with whom they trained with. And so on and so on.

At one time, you could buy "Mark Aspery style tongs"  I won't say who was selling them, but Mark laughed/groined at the idea that the way he made his tongs were distinctive as "His"  Yet before I meet him, I had never seen anyone make tongs quite like his.

[bird]

To make my point, what I should do instead of name names is post images of work and let you and others attach names, but that's work and I can't get the pics on here right, so here's a few names off my list in no particular order (others' lists may vary): 

James Wallace, Tom Joyce, Albert Paley, Elizabeth Brim, Steve Yusko, Daniel Miller, John Medwedeff (these are just living Americans, there are more I could list)

 

I'm not saying you should be able to recognize each of these person's works any more that I'd say you should be able to tell The Beatles from The Stones, or a Vermeer from a Rembrandt, I'm just saying that for people who chose to know these things, it isn't hard. 

 

We all show our influences, if we didn't we'd need to use another word. That's what influence is, but we reflect our influences like a fun-house mirror. Our influences come through us distorted by our experiences, our moment and place in time, our culture, and our attempts to understand the ever changing expectations our world has of blacksmiths. Ironwork today doesn't look different from that produced centuries ago just because of changes in technology, it is different because it is made for a different time and place. Standing on the shoulders of giants, we don't need to be giants ourselves to reach new places. 

[Gerald Boggs]

Actually, the only person's work I would recognize as that's person's is Albert Paley's and mostly because he's one of the few that have done large scale sculptural  public works.  While Elizabeth Brim certainly has done interesting things with the inflation of hot welded shapes, she is not the first to use the method.  As for the rest, while I'm familiar with their work, nothing they're done is uniquely theirs.   As for the last part, I have no idea what you're trying to say. 
 

[John McPherson]

Since we are using music in this analogy: many of my products start off to be "covers" of another artist's work, but more often become a parody. Guess I'm just the Weird Al of the blacksmith world, although I look more like Meatloaf.

[Gerald Boggs]

Fred Crist or Tom Joyce?  And the third is by Fred Crist and the fourth by Tom Joyce.  Except for a person intimate with the individual's work, how would one distinguish one artist from the other.  I recognize Fred's work only because his shop is five minutes from mine and I've spent many hours there.  I don't recognize Fred's "style" but I do recognize his "Hand" 

 

My point is:  There are no styles that are distinctive to only one artist.  We can recognize a single piece as something a specific artist made, but not a style as being distinctive only to that artist.

[bird]

On a lighter note, I'll give it to you… sort of. Those first two are funny. Maybe the big squish belongs in the public domain? Maybe it is an exploration of a technology. Maybe we need to see more work from Fred Christ and Tom Joyce in those series and it will become easy to tell.  The second two are easy.

 

Past that, you make my point for me. If you lived five minutes from Fred Christ's shop and couldn't tell his work from Tom Joyce's, I'd say you have bigger problems than needing to formulate your next post, but you can tell the difference. "Hand" or "Style," whatever you want to call it, the work of some smiths may be distinguished from the work of others. It is distinct. In the context of this discussion, my only point still is this:

If the work is distinctive, you shouldn't copy or imitate it for profit without permission. 

 

Enjoy your Father's Day everyone.

[Gerald Boggs]

We may have a confusion in language.  If you visit Fred Crist's web site, just what is his "Style"?  His work ranges from Gothic to abstract sculpture.  I mean come on, you're telling me you can tell the difference by "style" between Fred Crist's Gothic work and that of someone that lived a 100 years ago?

 

"If the work is distinctive, you shouldn't copy or imitate it for profit without permission."  This I agree with, but only as related to individual pieces.  Fred over the years has loaned me studies to take home and study :-)  I would never copy verbatium those studies, but I would use everything I could get from them.

[Glenn]

To copy exactly would be frowned upon as someone now or later could pass it off as an original. 

 

We see a element and later use that element in our work. We all take a little from here, a little from there, and some from over yonder and mix them all together. No reason to reinvent the wheel each time you want to go to town.  

[the iron dwarf]

if I see something I want to make even with a tutorial on how to make it I would probably make it my way using my skill set, it would turn out different than the original ( certainly much rougher and more primitive ) if im lucky it will perform the same function.

I am happy to say where I got the inspiration from for the item but would not try to pass it off as anything but my crude attempt.

no one would be able to pass my work off as made by someone well known.

 

I am known for certain things but that is not forgework

[arftist]

For a generic idea like a bottle opener, I would not sweat it. If I make a Moran or Scagel style blade and put my name on it, no problem. If someone asks you to copy the work of a current mass producer and you can't do it better for more money, then why bother? 

 

The real ethical no-no's are making whole copies or missing parts of historical items, and NOT putting your touchmark and date on the item. That is intent to defraud, and is a major problem in antique dealer realms.

OK, i understand and agree with you on the copies of historical items as long as the intent is to defraud the customer. (I will point out that historically many masterpieces have been copied, often for centuries, sometimes for millenia and some of the copies are priceless treasures) and also that there has always been "forgeries", it is nothing new. 

 

My confusion is with the second part of your statement; I have considered myself a righteous man, an honest business man, and a good helpful human being, even to the extent that the majority of my work helps society and humanity. You are telling me it is dishonest to repair a broken antique in such a way that the repair is indistinguishable? How so? Who is defrauded? 

[arftist]

Copies have been made of art since probably the beginning of, well art. You can pay homage to another artist (blacksmith) as Thomas eluded above; using elements that they are known for. And if you are really good, make an exact copy of their work. The key is to give that artist(smith) credit for their work. If you copied, say so. If you are inspired enough to develop a design solely on the idea of another, say so. As someone has already suggested, this is the information age, If you put something up, and don't copyright it, plan on it being copied. Hope you get credit. If you copy, give credit where credit is due. I think the later is most common, however. As my mother used to say "There is nothing new under the sun" and I'm sure that phrase was not her original idea :D

 

My 2¢,

Scott

Exactly. 

[John McPherson]

If I may, an example from the late PawPaw Wilson. IIRC, he was asked by an antique dealer to make up some elements missing from a Colonial fire or cooking set from old wrought iron, and just make it match, but not sign or date it. He refused.

 

If all of the elements were thought to be original, it would be worth $XXXX. If known to be an incomplete original, or part old/part repro set, it would only be worth $XXX. 1000% markup just by omitting a touchmark and date. Tempting, eh?

 

Passing off new stuff made to look old for profit is fraud, and often criminal charges can be brought against anyone knowingly associated.  

 

If you are asked to make historically accurate copies from a museum piece or old catalog, but not sign or date it, or worse, copy the old markings, you are skating on thin ice if it is resold by that person. The 1770-1865 militaria market is flooded with fakes of this sort.

[Roy Ubu]

As usual, there's more to it than meets the eye, but for most of us, including professionals, I think there is more potential for profit than damage in showing your stuff and not worrying.  

I want to see as much of everyone's work, dead or alive, as possible... In fact, I think that many of the best pieces that forum members have made, are not displayed here. We are free with our tool shots, but the really good stuff only shows up at the conference if at all. How much of the highest quality is in one of the multiple homes of the people who can afford it, never seen by anyone but the person dusting it and the one percent friends/guests? Not likely to steal your ideas. They couldn't tell if it was forged or cast. 

Best to be proud of your work, show it to anyone who wants to see it, and hope they have something to show you in return. We all get better, move forward with our designs, probably without losing money or prestige. 

[Neil Blythin]

... My confusion is with the second part of your statement; I have considered myself a righteous man, an honest business man, and a good helpful human being, even to the extent that the majority of my work helps society and humanity. You are telling me it is dishonest to repair a broken antique in such a way that the repair is indistinguishable? How so? Who is defrauded?

I'll jump in on this one (as a student of an institution that teaches historic restoration/conservation). I personally wouldn't call it 'fraudulent' per se. "Improper" would be the term I'd choose.

One of the underlying principals of conservation/preservation/restoration; is that repairs should be reversible, and distinguishable from the original. Not necessarily distinguishable to the layman, but to a trained professional. That's not specific to metalwork, but to all restoration work (wood, glass, plaster, masonry, and even finishes such as paint).

So, if you were to repair an antique wrought iron gate as an example - other blacksmiths and conservators should be able to tell, upon close examination, what is original and what isn't. It's okay for the difference to be difficult to spot for a member of the general public.

[jeremy k]

Would it not be a compliment to the forger to make a replacement part that is not distinguishable to anyone else? I understand all arguments.

[L Smith]

Well I would like to use some of Mr. Yellens elements in the future but they would never be seen where his work resides!

[SpankySmith]

As a complete Newb at blacksmithing, I spend a lot of time online looking for ideas, primarily for things I think I might be able to make. Then I print out a picture and try my best. I'm a visual learner, I need to see something, stare at it long enough to figure it out, then do it. I am successful sometimes, but always quick to point out to someone admiring a piece that the idea was not mine. More and more I find I'm making even such "copy" pieces my own, adding different touches, doing things slightly different, or sometimes doing something complex an easier way because of my lack of skill so far.

Is this stealing? Is it only stealing when I'm successful in replicating something, but if I'm not it isn't? I was at a street show the other night where one of my teachers was set up doing a demo. I asked if I could photograph a piece he made because I wanted to try it - he did me one better and fired up the forge to show me how he made it, explaining his process in great detail. I was quite happy with my attempt at home yesterday to replicate it, but you'd never mistake mine for his. If somebody wanders into my yard and wants to buy mine, is it wrong to sell it? What if next year I have my own craft booth and sell a few of them?

I guess I'm making the case that the very nature of learning ANY new skill is to copy the work others have done before you, from copying the hook you were taught to make Day One to copying more advanced projects as your skills increase. I think of potters who all basically make variations on a theme of the hand thrown, glazed coffee mugs and bowls I love so much. Those guys don't argue about someone stealing their handle ideas or bowl style. They just each try to make the very best piece they can and see what they can sell.

[lupiphile]

Ooh this is where I get to jump in. I am an artist blacksmith for hire. This means that I work on shop-designed, nice work ........for about 6 months of every year. The remainder of the time I get to play conservator. Clare Yellin is my principal employer and has been since I began blacksmithing. I have my own shop now, but I principally do all of the metalwork that has a Yellin stamp on it, I ask you , is this dishonest? I like the paycheck. I've made repairs to close to one hundred Yellin peices, conserved far more than that, and replaced missing sections by the tens, but guess who's names stamped on it? Furthermore, do you really think samuel yellin made anything that was sold? And how much of it do you think he designed? Let's get real here. Also working for under the auspices of other conservators I've done wholesale replacement of most of the weathervane at independence hall, and the gates of chestnut park (Chris Ray), All of my repairs and reproductions were completely indistinguishable from the originals (in the case of chris ray, I hid my welds waaay better, but I was also better paid than he was) and both of those projects recieved national conservation awards, but did you see my name anywhere? nope. I was paid for a service by the owners of the metalwork that needed fixing, end of story. Are my employers dishonest?Am I? I do have some excellent waterfront property in florida for sale at prices to low to mention.............but anyway, I think I'll end this screed by quoting Mark Aspery, " the only thing traditional in blacksmithing is making money" oh and if they're dead and your bereft of ideas,and your are children crying from hunger, and you can make money on it, steal it. Just don't lie if asked directly. Take care, Matt


Hey this is embarrassing, I had totally forgot I had participated in this thread before... Sorry if a couple of my most recent comments were redundant.

Bird - I really do keep the yellin stamps next to the treadle hammer...........

[VaughnT]

How does the question of intellectual theft translate over to small groups?

 

For example, if I made a rounding hammer like Brian's and debuted it here, would I be laughed at for calling it a "Vaughn Style" hammer?

 

How do you deal with small venues like etsy and ebay where there aren't a lot of smiths?  Can you make a railroad spike bottle opener just like someone else and honestly say you're not trying to capitalize on the market share?  There are only so many ways you can make a bottle opener out of a spike without getting crazy.... but could the other smith accuse you of uncool behavior because they were there first?

 

In both instances, the venue is small and everybody knows everybody.  Are you trying to steal their thunder?  Robbing them of their intellectual property?  Riding on their coattails?

 

A unique product is one thing, but what about those simple things?

[Neil Blythin]

Well that's the big question, isn't it? And as I've mentioned before, is it really their intellectual property to begin with?

So as with your example of bottle openers on Etsy... Is that smith selling openers on Etsy really the originator of the particular design they're making? Is their design significantly unique,, and different from existing designs?

Now what about something more generic - like tools. Is a John Neeman framing chisel that much different from a Barr or a Sorby? If I start making and selling framing chisels, will someone accuse me of ripping off the 'style' of a Neeman tool?

[SJS]

Nuge brought something up: ideas being sacred. In a way they can be, if you are an artist! If you are a craftsman they are mearly the vocabulary you work in. Design elements are the vocabulary we work with. If I use a finial from a medieval hinge off of a cathedral, and use it as the backplate of a coat hook, am I a plaguristic slob devoid of my own creativity? Or am I taking a design element and using it in a different application? I make things, I like to make things. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. I liked a design, I wanted to do something like it. If I worried about being utterly unique I would get even less done. I figure if you show off your designs you can expect that to show up in other peoples work, if not seeing cheap knockoffs. There are a few patterns that I consider mine, variations on other patternsthat I applied to a different theme. I haven't shown those here on ifi I want to profit from my ingenuity, before I show it to someone energetic who can do it faster and cheaper than I can;-) I figure you do a BP or utube video on how to make something, you have given much of your intellectual property rights away... Sometimes you get paid in something other than money, and that's cool too. I like teaching, and sharing. I like to use other peoples ideas/images to build my vocabulary, to add tools to my toolbox. I am not being malicious, I am hopefully growing and getting better. Hopefully I can make some money doing this;-)