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Taking others' ideas...is it OK?


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          This conversation seems mostly focused around making one form of widget or another (bottle openers,hooks, animal heads ect) and really I can't think, I've seen any examples of things that fall into that category that are so rife with innovation that they could be solely claimed as the intellectual property of anyone. I can think of a couple successful(and accomplished) smiths that make the bulk  of thier living from simple little things that beginners have been forging for over a hundred years. Hell, look at "boone's hooks" . Mike boone is a wonderful blacksmith but needed some production work to provide for his family and not spend every waking minute working his fingers down to the bone for rich people. So he made leaf hooks. And marketed them. Now the leaf hook is known far and wide as a boone's hook, at least among interior designers( so....where it counts) Is that unfair? and to who? 

I'll actually go one better and say If your starting out you should steal constantly. Every other artist that amounted to anything did. It gets ideas flowing and it will get you into your shop and save you from the crippling disease of wandering around in circles scratching your head, wondering what you're going to make this week. Your own style will develop itself from the act of making things. Its the making things that's important. If you selling the stuff just give credit where credits due. But to be more specific, you nor anyone on this forum has ever met the inventor of the rams head bottle opener.....ever.

 

                                         Good artists imitate, great artists steal.- Picasso/ t.s. elliot/ banksy/ me? 

                                                Just my feelings on the matter, Matt

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Back in the 1970's, before Disco, I was somewhat active in pottery.  Many of my fellow students had trained under an artist (Macanalan) who used to be in town, but then moved to a studio upstate.  Everyone who'd trained under this fellow made mug handles in the way that they'd been trained - they made their mugs with Macanalan handles.  I never spent a minute with Macanalan, but I learned second and third hand from his students, so I too made mugs that way.

 

None of us (that I know of) tried to pass our stuff off as genuine Macanalan, but it was obvious to some who'd been his student.  Likewise, Mark Aspery has put out his marvelous books, and many of us learn from him how to make Aspery-style wizard hooks.  Brian Brazeal has made his marvelous videos and trained us how to make horse heads.  There's a little bit of every smith that I've ever worked with in my work, as I try to learn something from every smith I see. 

 

I'll never make a knife as pretty as Owen Bush, but I like how he made loop handles on his Viking knives, and I now make all of my loop handled knives using that technique.

 

Do I try to pass my work off as that of another smith?  Nope.

 

Do I say "I was inspired by Owen Bush to make my handle like this?"  Yup.

 

I have no problem with people selling horseshoe hearts and horsehead bottle openers - we know where the technique came from.

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I am agree with most of the consensus. There are certain things that are abundant that it would be difficult to make your own. Bottle openers, hooks, rebar knives, viking style knives, kitchen knives, roses. . .

 

I was at a gift show and had made a bunch of rebar bottle openers. They sold very well and a young woman asked me if I sold on Etsy. I told her not yet, but I was about to open a shop. She then told me in a rude, accusatory manner that there was a rebar bottle openers that looked exactly like mine. It made me think post about posting my own. Mine were darker, straighter, twisted and shorter.  I decided there was no reason not to sell them. It is difficult to vary the design for such a simple item. 

 

If someone copied my design for my wine rack, which was created using a jig, has 7 rivets each, a unique design for the neck catch. . .  you get the idea. It's much easier to vary your own design to create something unique. If you copied it, I would think that you weren't just creating A wine rack, you would be creating MY wine rack. I would consider you unethical. Plus it doesn't take much creativity to vary it enough to make it your own.

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Copying another's work isn't a big deal, everybody does, I doubt anybody's come up with a new idea in a long looooong time. Heck, try preventing an experienced maker from copying a piece once they've looked at it. Yeah, right.

 

Misrepresenting your work as another's on the other hand is FRAUD. Fraud deserves jail time and blackball.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

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I've heard of an entire geographical region being referred to as being from a "school" of that particular craft.  Antiques Roadshow commonly describes as this or that widget being from a particular school of widgetry.

 

In practice it's highly doubtful that there really was a scholastic program determining everything.  I think good ideas propagate wherever they find audience.  

 

Collectors obsess over provenance because it justifies amplifying the perceived value of one object over another.  It's incredibly common for a famous artist to be just one iteration of a "school" of artists doing essentially the same thing.

 

Very few artists are game changers which probably injures more egos than anything else.  If your not going to be a game changer - be a better player.  Better execution, better material selection, better ergonomics, whatever.

 

The few that are game changers don't have to argue over who's on top.  I've seen interviews with Eric Clapton talking about the first time he heard Stevie Ray Vaughn play live.  Clapton left the show feeling there was nothing he could add to music.

 

I'm certain plenty of musician's have left a Clapton show feeling the same way. I also think plenty of them went home more committed to their dreams.

 

In the end, I'm still convinced that we know so little about what humanity's really got going on that it's entirely possible the greatest genius of our time is completely unknown to most of us.  With that in mind, I know my place is to be a better player.

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I really like this last post, in the realm of a craft this is spot on.  Well put.

 

 

Copying another's work isn't a big deal, everybody does, I doubt anybody's come up with a new idea in a long looooong time. Heck, try preventing an experienced maker from copying a piece once they've looked at it. Yeah, right.

 

Misrepresenting your work as another's on the other hand is FRAUD. Fraud deserves jail time and blackball.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

 

 

I don't really get how these two ideas jive.  If copying another's work isn't a big deal then how can it be fraud?  If no one has come up with a new idea in this lifetime how can you misrepresent your work as another person's?  Wouldn't it all be in the historical and cultural "archives".  What constitutes a new idea??

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I really like this last post, in the realm of a craft this is spot on.  Well put.

 

 

 

 

I don't really get how these two ideas jive.  If copying another's work isn't a big deal then how can it be fraud?  If no one has come up with a new idea in this lifetime how can you misrepresent your work as another person's?  Wouldn't it all be in the historical and cultural "archives".  What constitutes a new idea??

 

Very well said Rockstar.

 

Nuge: The difference is or should be clear, expressing myself is harder than it used to be. This is what I was trying to say. Say we make a gate following a Yellin gate as closely as we can but we put our mark on it. We copied his design but are claiming the piece as ours. Copy.

 

If on the other hand we put Yellin's mark on it and claim it's his work. Fraud.

 

Why misrepresent a piece? I'm pretty sure a Yellin gate would bring more than one I built, even if the lay person couldn't tell the difference.

 

Steve used a copy of a Moran knife and how a maker marks it as an example of what I'm trying to say.

 

Let me know if that isn't clear enough, I'll try to do better. I know there's a clear succinct way to say this but. . . <sigh> Of course the way my mind works now may not make sense to anyone else, I don't get it often enough. <grin>

 

Frosty The Lucky.

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Frosty's right, stamping yellin onto a gate does command a higher price, thats actually why I keep the yellin stamps next to my treadle hammer. On larger commisions that I design I stamp both my shop initials (M2B) and yellin for the sake of posterity. I freely mix and match. Most of my work comes through Clare Yellin and so people expect that funny little stamp. Though most of the designs are my own I still tend to refer to it as "yellin work" in that its yellin inspired, and of course it's a job acquired through Clare. Is that theft?.....From me, or by me? I love this discussion. Wonderful points of view all around, Take care, Matt

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I don’t sell little items nor am I an artist.  I build functional things all of which are paid for by someone who has an idea what they want.  I have had lots of folks bring in a picture and say "will you build me this?"    The answer is no unless it’s totally generic, and the reply is something like “we can use that as inspiration”  Or “we can adapt that feeling to suit your situation”        It is not ok to duplicate another’s work  exactly,  but every piece of ironwork on the planet was influenced by something.    We all develop our own likes and skills based on what we see others do.      Don’t knock off another’s product though with the intent of selling them.     My feeling is its 100% fine to make something you saw someone else do for yourself, or to give away.   We build skill buy challenging ourselves and much of that happens trying to replicate others work.      Making a stack of them and hocking them at a street market, not ok.     Even if you are building it for a gift or yourself be a man (or woman I guess  )  and call it what it is.    If it’s a Darryl Nelson bear head call it a Darryl Nelson bear head,   If it’s a Brian Brazeal horse head then say “hey, check out this Brazeal horse head I made!”        Its yours, you made it, but they get credit for the design.     

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Having traveled around quite a bit I have noticed that there are people (read eedjits)that stick Prancing Horse decals onto Alfas, Fiats and all sorts of Cr.p, does that make them a Ferrari? No

If one builds a fiberglass kit car that Looks like a Ferrari does it fool many?

The ''knock off'' industry is alive and well all over the world and that's just the way it is these days.
Probably not ideal but it's real!

If a designer puts a picture(photo)of an item they want produced I'll make it! I might even 'know' the original but I'm not going to say hey Mr. T......d that's the gate/console from xxx palace so I'm not prepared to reproduce it! I just omit the makers mark. Does that make me a bad person?(BTW. I don't need an answer to this ) feel free to chuck in your $0.02 worth.

Ian

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Great Musicians Listen to Others Music, No ?

 

Inspiration comes from somewhere, and even the greats appreciated other greats.  The difference between a copy and an imitation I think are vast.  I like seeing the knives that people design.  Gives me ideas.  To claim to own a Seax style blade, then you must be a few thousand years old.  If I make a chair with 4 legs, am I stealing IKEA'S design ?  Or am I just working within the parameters of an established functional design?  If I see something cool, I can't help myself but attempt to mimic.  My design I think would only be a take of an idea.  If I put IKEA on the chair I made, then well, that's a more fuzzy area.

 

I appreciate the creativity of all those willing to share.  But if I make a similar item with my own name on it, then I don't see the problem, unless it's patented.

 

Probably too many rules these days as all are striving for that dollar, so conflict will happen.  Best I can say is CYA.  Cover Your A**.

 

Darned pennies always floating around.  If I could keep them in a jar I'd be a millionaire :p

 

-Bruno

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Frosty's right, stamping yellin onto a gate does command a higher price, thats actually why I keep the yellin stamps next to my treadle hammer. On larger commisions that I design I stamp both my shop initials (M2B) and yellin for the sake of posterity. I freely mix and match. Most of my work comes through Clare Yellin and so people expect that funny little stamp. Though most of the designs are my own I still tend to refer to it as "yellin work" in that its yellin inspired, and of course it's a job acquired through Clare. Is that theft?.....From me, or by me? I love this discussion. Wonderful points of view all around, Take care, Matt

 

Matt: Do you work in Yellin's shop or subcontract Clare's work? Either way, visiting you is on my bucket list. If you think I can be long winded here you ought ought to meet me. <grin>

 

Frosty The Lucky.

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I think there is a huge difference in copying someones finished product and copying someones details. I think copying someones finished work and passing it off as your own is wrong unless the original creator of the piece in question gives permission for you to make it (selling also brings up other arguments). However, when taking someones features they use or originated, I could argue that most everything made by us IS some else's ideas. Somebody was the first to design and make a basket, a scroll, a heel tenon, etc so technically you would be taking some else's idea in re-producing those as a part of what you are making. Do they own those designs exclusively and indefinitely?...I don't think so. Knowledge/designs/and techniques needs to be shared and encouraged. My 2 cents.

-Crazy Ivan

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In the end it comes down to how honest you are.

 

As one guy said he always try to copy the great craftsmen's work but he hasn't managed it yet.

 

There is a similar thread now at Sawmillcreek.org, and they quoted something from Fine Woodworking magazine.

 

 

 

A reader recently e-mailed us at FWW to ask if he could sell a few garden benches based on Russell Jensen's beautiful piece on the cover of issue 198, with only a few minor design changes. I gave him my stock answer:
"Legally, he probably doesn’t have to ask, because it is hard to make these cases stand up in court. But ethically, he should ask, especially if his changes are only minor. The plans are in the public domain, but that is for hobbyists. For pros who want to make money off the design, it is a whole other matter. If he isn’t going to compete with Jensen directly, in his region for example, Jensen will probably say OK."
We also forwarded the question to Jensen, and sure enough he said it was fine, but I'm sure he appreciated being asked:
"I have no problem with him using the design to sell. If he was doing it in large quantities I would probably be upset about it, but if he's just building one here and there to sell that's fine by me. Can't say that certain Fine Woodworking articles haven't heavily influenced some of my work also, so for me to say that he can't use my design would be somewhat hypocritical I think : )."
I agree with Jensen that all designs are influenced by what has come before, but it's not too hard too see that some are pretty unique. Take Sam Maloof's rocker. He refined that design again and again, and so the design we all know and love represents any, many years of work, and a lot of money if you consider all the lean years a furniture maker accepts, hoping to find his or her voice and develop a signature line.
When I was interviewing Maloof, I asked him about the many knockoffs I had seen. He didn't mind hobbyists copying his chair. That's why he explained how to build his rocker in articles and videos in the early years of FWW. But the case that upset him was a guy who set up a whole business around the concept of: Come take a class with me and I'll show you how to build the Sam Maloof chair. Maloof said he had considered suing, but was advised it wouldn't be worth it in the end. It would have been nice if the guy had at least asked.
Recently, I have seen people selling plans for a "Sam Maloof-inspired chair." I appreciate them inserting the word "inspired" and not copying the Maloof rocker exactly. That seems like it falls on the right side of the line.
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Something that's occurred to me is that lots of business crimes hinge on being able to prove injury.  As ianinsa pointed out - sticking a prancing horse decal on an 86 Honda isn't hurting Ferrari's business.

 

Artists looking for benefactors are really looking for a collector who's seeking the rarity associated with a particular artist.  The provenance makes up much of the value.

 

Being imitated doesn't hurt provenance - it gives something for "experts" to obsess over.  Walk into an electric guitar store and you'll soon see that the shape of the Fender Stratocaster and Gibson Les Paul are replicated ad-infinitum.  Rather than suffer cheaper "me-too's" both Fender and Gibson have long established subsets in their line that meet every price point.

 

Seriously, they're CNC machined lumber and they charge a different price depending on if it's milled in America, Japan, or Mexico.  This pricing difference only reflects the politics regarding where the CNC machine is plugged in.  

 

The collector market will happily pay more for that provenance. ?

 

Pick up an American Strat from the 60's and an aficionado will go through nauseating details that separate it from another Strat that's functionally the same thing.

 

To the aficionado, these details are more significant than which instrument sounds the best in an artists hands.  In other words, the original doesn't have to be better to attract a market - it just has to be noteworthy enough to be imitated.  These folks obsess over minutia that allows them to distinguish one maker from another.  Do something subtle that's easily overlooked and you'll earn their attention.

 

Going the other direction, there are makers copying the basic parameters of these mass produced items on a significantly higher level - they're commanding huge dollar amounts for them as well.

 

My point is that it's very difficult to prove imitation would injure your business.  If it's a good enough idea - you'll be an icon, if it's just better execution - you've nothing to worry about.

 

Anything that represents a huge leap forward in a craft would be well cautioned to seek copyright / patent protection.

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  • 4 months later...

Thought I'd comment on an interesting situation I had happen the other day.

 

A guy I know on FB posted a pic/link of a forged bottle opener that was a completely new design for me.  Never seen anything like it and immediately latched onto the idea of trying to forge one and said so on the guy's post.

 

Well, him being a bar owner and knowing that I smith a bit here and there, he said, "Hey, if you do, we might be interested in a few of them."

 

The first thing that hit my mind when he offered to buy some from me was, "Dude, you can buy them for $30 right through the link you just posted!"

 

Needless to say, I didn't take the guy up on his offer.  It was simply too close to stealing.  Things would have been completely different, though, if he had simply posted a picture and I had no idea that they were for sale somewhere.

 

I would note, too, that I've not yet been able to duplicate the opener.

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Using an idea of someone else and then selling it for profit is an age old question.  If you got the idea of IFI and it's from South Africa and you are setting in Vermont USA you are not taking his food off his table.  When we make these things handmade no two are alike even from our own shop.  If the idea is copyrighted as Steve says you better not be copying it but when is it similar and when does it become a copy? 

 

If you have something really neat and your afraid someone will take the idea and run with it, DON"T POST IT!

 

This will be conversed over for as long as there are two people doing the same thing.  If there was a rule on this we might all be driving FORDS!

 

Subject of Bottle Openers, we use to make them in our old shop until someone asked, Just How Many Bottles are out there that need an opener?  We have a couple hundred made from RR Spikes left that nobody seems to need.  We did make many 1000s of them custom in different designs for a customer who had different Bars and Brewers stamped on them, sold real well for a number of years, he died and the market with him.

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Many years ago, I took a college program for small business / entrepreneurship.  Intellectual Property (i.e. the laws surrounding trademarks, patents, and copyright) was a a topic we covered in great detail.

 

There are a lot of would-be inventors in the world, and also a lot of creative people who think they have come up with some new idea.  But in order to patent or trademark something, you need to prove that it is substantially different from that which already exists. Not an easy task.  Many who try to protect their 'unique' idea (or design), upon further research, come to find that their idea isn't so unique after all.  

 

Its not so much that 'there are no new ideas', as some have suggested; but rather new ideas are not too common.  Especially in a craft as old as ours.  So many talented and creative people, the world over, have been pounding on metal for so long - that a truly unique design is hard to come by.  Everything is influenced by work you've seen.

 

IMHO, unless you're trying to make a forgery of a specific persons work (complete with their mark on it), most other 'borrowing' of ideas is fair game. Especially from those who have freely shared their work on the internet without specifically trademarking, patenting or copyrighting the design.  

 

I'm a bit of a computer geek, and really like the Creative Commons idea that evolved from the open source / free software movement.  They refer to the Creative Commons (CC) Intellectual Property licensing model as 'copyleft'.  The underlying principal is free sharing of ideas, with 'attribution' (giving credit) to the originator(s).

 

... I've always thought it would be a really neat idea for the blacksmithing community to develop modern day pattern books, published under a CC license.  

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I think the one word response was all that this question deserved. Ideas are sacred, push yourself to do your own work. I think we all know where the line is. So easy to steal when it's only an idea, right? Or so easy Not to? When Brazeal style horse head openers show up on Etsy, as they have, it's profoundly uncool. Guess what, it's going to happen, you have to stay one step ahead of the fly skimmers.

Oh yeah, I take issue with the statement "there's nothing new under the sun" as it nullifies much of my time spent, one of the other few sacred things.

 

I just read this thread for the first time since I posted, so my apologies, but after catching up, I still stand on this statement. Plastic is even made with stuff that was on the earth AFTER the sun. To be fair, the original statement  has more meaning than we are allowed to discuss here but I think its still true and shouldn't nullify anything other than the idea that we can't take what has been done and do it again with (as I said) homage and/or credit to the originator.

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When Brazeal style horse head openers show up on Etsy, as they have, it's profoundly uncool. Guess what, it's going to happen, you have to stay one step ahead of the fly skimmers.

Questions:  Are you sure Mr. Brazeal is the originator of that style of bottle opener?  Might not he have seen someone else making something along those lines.  Not saying he isn't, just an observation I've notice on Iforge; the first person that post something on Iforge is forever given credit as the "Originator"  I've notice a couple of ideas that came first from Habermman, that are credited to others.

Mr. Brazeal takes money while teaching that bottle opener.  If I pay you to teach me something, I'm going to use it in my own business.   Is that wrong?

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Excellent questions/points Gerald!

 

So not to pick on Brian, but to use these horse head openers as an example... People have been carving animal heads on things since time immemorial.  Brian is certainly not the first person to adorn the handle of a small utilitarian object with a horse head.  Bottle openers, of all shapes and forms, have been around a long, long time. To combine the two is not an entirely unique idea.  

 

Now, the ones he demonstrates how to make in a freely available YouTube video may be of a particular, recognizable, style. But again, if he were to want to maintain ownership or control of that particular style, he wouldn't have made and shared a video.  To say others making these is "seriously uncool" ... I don't understand that position.  And as Gerald mentioned, if someone paid to take a class and was taught that particular method / design.

 

To use another example (sorry Brian, again not trying to single you out, just a good example for discussion) is the rounding hammers he demonstrates in another video.  All over the place, I see these described as "Brazeal style"; but time and time again on this site, he's said 'they aren't my design'.  But I'm certain some people here would criticize anyone they saw making and selling such hammers - and we'd see accusations of a 'stolen design' coming from at least a few people.

 

Great topic for discussion folks. I'm really enjoying this thread.

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Let me say that my beliefs are not aimed at the hobbyist or even the beginner but the "professional", meaning someone taking $ for services.

I could care less about the lineage of said horse head. That's not my point. In a world where everything is at your fingertips, tools, knowledge of technique, the best materials, etc, is it really the best course to take the path of least resistance, copying another's work?

Creativity is one of the main tenants of craft and in this age where things are mass produced and stale I would say its one of the most important. Let's take the whole idea of theft out of the equation for a minute. If you get into the habit of lifting designs then how are you going to figure out that new commission you acquired? I think it's better to learn techniques and then adapt those to your ideas, your style. I don't really like the kind of workshop where all the students make the same thing, I think it stifles the core of learning, --exploration. It's more valuable to the serious student to get the basics, get an idea, and then see if they can make it happen. A lot of times failure results but that is fine. But as beginners we all want to make something that looks cool so the teachers have to teach that straight line so the student feels like they accomplished something. I want it all and I want in now.

And that leads me to my last point. A lot of smiths try to go pro too soon. If you can't make it on your own work maybe you should continue your training and let your style and design sense grow a bit more before you make a go. This is craft, it takes a long time to become proficient. And when we are all copying each other it is the craft that suffers. And the audience.

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nuge,

 

You've an interesting argument.  I do wonder though if the concern that the profession, the art and the audience will suffer from copied ideas as you suggest.

 

Music at it's elemental level is 8 notes.  Noise is too.  There's a four chord progression used for hundreds of popular songs.  I'm not sure where the idea started but Pachelbel Canon in D dates to the 1600's and it uses the same progression.

 

Here's a video of a band playing it:

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On 6/9/2014 at 6:20 PM, rockstar.esq said:

nuge,

You've an interesting argument.  I do wonder though if the concern that the profession, the art and the audience will suffer from copied ideas as you suggest.

Music at it's elemental level is 8 notes.  Noise is too.  There's a four chord progression used for hundreds of popular songs.  I'm not sure where the idea started but Pachelbel Canon in D dates to the 1600's and it uses the same progression.

 

Actually a few cultures have different scale divisions, consisting of other than western style 8 notes to an octive and a few odd "Just Intonational" modes.

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