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Taking others' ideas...is it OK?


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Back in the 1970's, before Disco, I was somewhat active in pottery.  Many of my fellow students had trained under an artist (Macanalan) who used to be in town, but then moved to a studio upstate.  Everyone who'd trained under this fellow made mug handles in the way that they'd been trained - they made their mugs with Macanalan handles.  I never spent a minute with Macanalan, but I learned second and third hand from his students, so I too made mugs that way.

None of us (that I know of) tried to pass our stuff off as genuine Macanalan, but it was obvious to some who'd been his student.  Likewise, Mark Aspery has put out his marvelous books, and many of us learn from him how to make Aspery-style wizard hooks.  Brian Brazeal has made his marvelous videos and trained us how to make horse heads.  There's a little bit of every smith that I've ever worked with in my work, as I try to learn something from every smith I see. 

I'll never make a knife as pretty as Owen Bush, but I like how he made loop handles on his Viking knives, and I now make all of my loop handled knives using that technique.

Do I try to pass my work off as that of another smith?  Nope.

Do I say "I was inspired by Owen Bush to make my handle like this?"  Yup.

I have no problem with people selling horseshoe hearts and horsehead bottle openers - we know where the technique came from.

 

This about sums it up for me. I can't even begin to imagine how many videos I've watched of smiths making one item or another. Let alone how many pictures I've looked at for inspiration. 

 

The point has been raised numerous times here but making a direct copy and passing it off as an original is a no no. The example that comes to mind would be Bob Loveless knives. 

 

To make something in the style of another smith would surely be a tip of the hat? By its very nature you're admitting that the original is a better idea than anything you have come up with for that particular item. 

 

 

I keep a collection of pictures on my iPad of various bits of forge work ranging from bottle openers to gates to sculptures. Once you get to a certain stage you start looking at things differently - i.e. you combine ideas in your head. Thinking "I like the way they have done that scroll and combining it with an unrelated piece, say a twist for example"

 

For example - combining a steak flipper with a bottle opener.  - hardly a ground breaking idea but you see my point I'm sure.

 

All the best

Andy 

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  • 4 weeks later...

You mean just because I work from my forge I'm not supposed to do forgeries? ;) this is a long drawn out topic and sometimes very upsetting. :)

Because I am a craftsman, you are welcome to use any of my work as you see fit. Glad to be of help. Love passing along the craft in any way I can.

If a client gives you my drawing with my mark on it, hopefully you will seek my permission before attempting my design.

I did some historical restoration at the Air Force Academy. Three wall sconces were missing out of a set of 12. We believe they were of Spanish Gothic in origins.

Two years later, when the restoration was complete, I went back for pics. I couldn't tell mine from the originals. Got my pics. I have no idea if my portfolio pics are mine or 800 year old. My touch mark was on the back. I didn't feel right taking them down to check. There were No touch marks on the sample I had. Guess I did my job.

If you have larceny in your heart, well that's your choice. Otherwise have an open heart and just be a Blacksmith.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Let me say that my beliefs are not aimed at the hobbyist or even the beginner but the "professional", meaning someone taking $ for services.

I could care less about the lineage of said horse head. That's not my point. In a world where everything is at your fingertips, tools, knowledge of technique, the best materials, etc, is it really the best course to take the path of least resistance, copying another's work?

Creativity is one of the main tenants of craft and in this age where things are mass produced and stale I would say its one of the most important. Let's take the whole idea of theft out of the equation for a minute. If you get into the habit of lifting designs then how are you going to figure out that new commission you acquired? I think it's better to learn techniques and then adapt those to your ideas, your style. I don't really like the kind of workshop where all the students make the same thing, I think it stifles the core of learning, --exploration. It's more valuable to the serious student to get the basics, get an idea, and then see if they can make it happen. A lot of times failure results but that is fine. But as beginners we all want to make something that looks cool so the teachers have to teach that straight line so the student feels like they accomplished something. I want it all and I want in now.

And that leads me to my last point. A lot of smiths try to go pro too soon. If you can't make it on your own work maybe you should continue your training and let your style and design sense grow a bit more before you make a go. This is craft, it takes a long time to become proficient. And when we are all copying each other it is the craft that suffers. And the audience.

 

Hi All,

 

I'm a very new blacksmith having taken a class locally from a non-profit group that is trying to keep the art going. My question/response to the above is that several of the statements in the class leaned towards the "this is easy and cost effective to be made and sold". So exactly where do you see the beginner ending and the professional beginning? Personally I really love scrolling through the how-to posts from this site and trying things out or going on to etsy, pinterest, or ebay and finding something new. Nothing I make ever comes out looking exactly like what I found, I mean Hell non blacksmiths say "well I can see what you were looking at but................" With that said I plan to find ideas online, make them all winter and then setup a booth in the area and see if my skills can pay for my hobby, instead of sucking money out of my main career continuously. And who knows maybe in the future I can consider myself more than just a hobbyist. 

 

Do I have the wrong view point?

 

Selius 

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Welcome aboard Selius, glad to have you, If you put your general location in the header you might be surprised how many of the IFI gang live within visiting distance. Iforgeiron is represented by members all over the planet and some info is regional, say you're looking for a left handed widget wiggler but they're only made in S. transistoria.

 

This thread is a prefect example of what happens when you ask more than one blacksmith a question, you get more answers than people you asked. My opinion and operating principle is posted here under my handle so I won't repeat myself. THAT will surprise some of the guys. <grin>

 

Just be honest and most folk won't have a problem with you, where ever you get the idea, inspiration, etc. passing your work off as that of someone in demand is a B-A-D thing. Oh DARN I'm starting to repeat myself! <sigh>

 

Signing off for now. <grin>

 

Frosty The Lucky.

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Man,

Every other trade that happens, house builders, bakers, wood carvers, restaurants,  I have made some stuff that i have taken from things on the net I am honest and tell the customer that I got the design from another smith. I would probably not be offering the item right next to the smith down the street who i know is making them. However, If they bring you a plan or picture and ask you to make it........ Just make it. smithing has been here for a long time. nobody is coming up with "new stuff" for petes sake we have forgotten more about blacksmithing then we know about it.

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  • 3 months later...

This question is a lot more complicated then it seems. You could ask for permission, but what if you saw it on a picture on the internet where you can’t find the owner, or even do not speak the language. What if the artist is dead but the apprentice has continued the same style? How long should you be dead before it is a fair game? What if someone improves on your style, but the key element is the same?

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Ooh this is where I get to jump in. I am an artist blacksmith for hire. This means that I work on shop-designed, nice work ........for about 6 months of every year. The remainder of the time I get to play conservator. Clare Yellin is my principal employer and has been since I began blacksmithing. I have my own shop now, but I principally do all of the metalwork that has a Yellin stamp on it, I ask you , is this dishonest? I like the paycheck. I've made repairs to close to one hundred Yellin peices, conserved far more than that, and replaced missing sections by the tens, but guess who's names stamped on it? Furthermore, do you really think samuel yellin made anything that was sold? And how much of it do you think he designed? Let's get real here. Also working for under the auspices of other conservators I've done wholesale replacement of most of the weathervane at independence hall, and the gates of chestnut park (Chris Ray), All of my repairs and reproductions were completely indistinguishable from the originals (in the case of chris ray, I hid my welds waaay better, but I was also better paid than he was) and both of those projects recieved national conservation awards, but did you see my name anywhere? nope. I was paid for a service by the owners of the metalwork that needed fixing, end of story. Are my employers dishonest?Am I? I do have some excellent waterfront property in florida for sale at prices to low to mention.............but anyway, I think I'll end this screed by quoting Mark Aspery, " the only thing traditional in blacksmithing is making money" oh and if they're dead and your bereft of ideas,and your are children crying from hunger, and you can make money on it, steal it. Just don't lie if asked directly. Take care, Matt


Hey this is embarrassing, I had totally forgot I had participated in this thread before... Sorry if a couple of my most recent comments were redundant.

Bird - I really do keep the yellin stamps next to the treadle hammer...........

Matt,

All I will add is this.

When Museums conserve work each part that is replaced is marked (no matter how small) so it can be, in the future, distinguished from the original. I have seen "chain"mail shirts with hundreds of new links made to look as the original...each with a tiny stamp denoting repair. Same with re-sewn tapestries and retouched paintings....noted on the bak of the work.

The fact that you are working under the Yellin Brand makes it a more debatable affair as to marking the repair. I suggest a date stamp next to the Yellin stamp.

 

Ric

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Ideas are sacred in the sense that they should be shared. I doubt I've had a purely original thought in my life, but if I ever did, that would be the one I'd be proudest to pass on. On the other hand, it's probably easier to combine old ideas in new ways to make some larger, at least novel product. Take anything you want from me and if it comes out well, share it with someone else. I thought that was what this place was about.

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  • 2 months later...

With all this discussion about RR spike bottle openers, keep in mind that the railroad owns them.. If most are worried about taking ones ideas,, I ask; did they acquire the materials legally?

​Not always true.  I recently acquired two BUCKETS full of RR spikes from a buddy who works at a local plant where they are pulling up and replacing the track on their property, installed and owned by the plant many years ago.  

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  • 5 months later...

Great thread! Ethics of blacksmithing, wow! I really enjoyed reading each and every post and I found myself wholeheartedly agreeing with conflicting points of view! My feelings are no less complex but after reading I do come down more strongly on one side of this issue. 

  If you can make it, better or worse than the original, you own it! Give it away, sell it, trade it, it's yours if it came off your anvil. Faking a mark to decieve is forgery, everything else is fair game. I was very fortunate to spend time with Brian Brazeal, Lyle D Wynn, Ricky Wynn and many other very talanted Blacksmiths when I first became interested in forging. Those guys were always willing to share the most valuable thing any of us own, their time and experience. It takes a special person to be a good teacher and while I am not as skilled or knowledgable as the men who taught and continue to teach me I have tried to emulate the willingness to share of myself and my work that I received from them. If I do have a somewhat novel idea and someone comes along and builds on it, improves it, expands it, that means it's time for me to up my game! My time is better spent at the forge than worrying over wether I'm getting credit for something that just happens to be the latest incarnation of something ancient. 

 As for lawyers, copyright infringement, patents, intellectual property ad nausium all I can say is......   GRRRRRR!!!  I'm not going to waste my energy trying to kill someone elses momentum when I can use that energy to propel myself to my next level of thought and craftsmanship!

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Twisted  I agree with your GRRRRRRRR and I'll add GRRRRRR or two of my own.  Who owns RR spikes depends on where you buy them when we bought new ones from a RR they are mine got a receipt the ones I buy at yard sales who knows but i'll let the RRs figure out who they belong to as I buy them all over the country.  I'll bet they don't have the interest in them enough to spend the time looking to see where they came from.  Catch me on a right away picking them up they a have a legitimate complaint but I'm have supply without sticking my neck out and I'm getting to old to go looking there.  The plates that the rails set on to be spiked make great bases for post vises weld a piece of channel on to mount the vise and use the holes to bolt to floor.   Pic below from Lake Champlain Maritime Mus. in VT in the training area.

05 23_1426.JPG

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  • 1 month later...

I know this has basicly been thrashed to death. But I can't help but comment in a good debate like this. 

But the reality is, everyone will think different about this question, it depends on the persons back ground. The way someone was brought up will determine how they feel.

someone from family in China ( or any other place in the business) , who's dad owned a company that made ripoff products and sold at a cheaper price will feel different to the guy who's dad made the original. Why? They have been taught different standards of what's acceptable. And have been affected differently by life.

So you can't actually conclude anything from this discussion as there are no written laws, only people's feelings. That in itself is interesting though, in Australia at least "art" cannot be patented. ?? You can decide if the has any bearing on the matter yourselves. 

My take on the subject are as follows, if you feel bad for copying something ask the guys who made the original, or don't sell it. If you don't feel bad, like you have copied someone, you will sell it and never look back.

In reality here no one can own a bar twist, or some type of work. Even yellin gates besides stamping Samuel yellin on something you made( without owning or working for the owner of the name), copy what ever you like. No one has a patient ( as far as I know ) on the forging processes, or a style. I know this was not ment to be a discussion about legality but that's why we have laws, to tell what is ethically right and wrong. Any form of "ownership" someone could have is only because they do it better than anyone else. As I think was mentioned earlier.

If your the guy that's worried someone copied your stuff, get over it. We live in a world where even stuff that is illegal to copy is copied. The music industry for example, rip off are sold everywhere. If you are an artist of any description, just be the best. And be responsive to the market. If the other guy who copied you is under cutting you, your probably charging to much. Music artists now sell there stuff a lot cheaper to try get some sales. Is it right, not really, will you ever stop it, I doubt it.

Just go with it and make and market your stuff better then the other guy.

just to stir the pot a bit more ;-)

Andy

 

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Someone resurrected an oldie-but-goodie thread!

My sister got REALLY ticked at me yesterday 'cause I "stole" HER idea for taking old silver spoons and bending them into purse clip/key holders.  It's something she had me do for her last year for Christmas gifts.  But if you Google that particular item they're literally EVERYWHERE, so it's not exaaaactly her idea either, it's likely something she saw at Etsy or hanging on someone else's purse.  Like others have said, what exactly IS a truly original idea anymore?   Do I make it original if I twist the spoon a little differently?  Naw, still the same concept, still not mine, not my sister's, likely not even any of the 500 people selling them on Etsy.   

 

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What does "exact copy" mean? How far must you be from the original or how close can you get and not infringe on a copyright? :

Here's an original from the Hotermans collection in the Stewart Museum in Montréal :

P1020692.thumb.JPG.3dba952da49d27413ec07

And here is my copy :

P1040004.thumb.JPG.4e45a1ee7de84ae1c7e1f

If the original blacksmith had taken a copyright, would I have infringed it?

  1. True, I have the same shapes except for the feet and the swivel,
  2. the same dimensions,
  3. but not the same material ; mild steel instead of iron ; square rods instead of round rods ;
  4. the techniques I used are the same.
  5. When I show this apple roaster, I say its a copy of the one in the Hotermans collection bearing number so and so.

My copy is pretty close and if I had the iron, I could make a precise copy to the point where I would have to mark it with my logo  and put a date somewhere to insure no one claims it's a piece from the 18th century.

How do you copyright an apple roaster like this one? When they made apple roasters, wether it be in Nouvelle-France, in France or in the british colonies of North-America, they all made them quite the same way.

Now, if one blacksmith put a duck's head on a handle, it did not mean that others could not put a duck's head on the handle. Does the copyright mean that if in 2015 I put a duck's head on the handle on an apple roaster that Thomas Powers cannot do the same? A different head? How different?

What is a design? is it just the shape or is it the shape and the material and dimensions and does it include the fabrication procedure, the techniques (which I believe to be what you take a patent for, please correct me if I'm wrong)?

Do you infringe a copyright only if you claim the design is yours?

 

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Yves; I suggest you research this as I am not a lawyer and do not want to spend the next week typing out details. There are a number of sites on the web that have discussion on this eg: https://artandcraftintellectualpropertylaw.wordpress.com/   (an extremely brief overview)  Note that you don't have to take one out; it's automatic!

And note that your example is way past the date where a copyright becomes open.

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Thomas,

You did get my drift. I am not a lawyer either. I only wanted to show how complicated these things are. I hold copyrights to some writing I comitted years back. That's easy to copyright. But design? How about music and song writing? Nah!

Let's all fall back on ethics, at least those of us who do not have the money to sue everybody. And if your idea was taken, you are better off getting another one than getting a lawyer or even spending time on exposing the thief.

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I'm late to the party and didn't take the time to read everything but wanted to respon to the original question of copying.

There are two "stealable" items---a design and an idea.  Ideas are technology and unless patented, they are meant to be shared (in principal) as they enhance the *field* they are used in.  Designs are art and art should never be copied/stolen.  your art might look similar but unless it's a paint by numbers kit, you just don't play copycat intentionally.

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