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Taking others' ideas...is it OK?


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Here I go resurrecting an old thread again

So all of this is interesting, but how does this apply in a more practical sense, in realms that many of us "hobby" smiths may exist in.  Or Etsy Craftsmen.

From an ethical viewpoint, I will not claim that all my work is totally original.  After all, I watched at least 5 youtube videos on how to make a leaf keychain.  I have looked at pictures of bottle openers for days.  Pretty sure I can make a penannular broach, and maybe a matching hair clip.  Flint firestarter steels look fairly easy.  I got the ideas in my head from plenty of other smiths.  I will give credit where it's due.  For example, a firestarter set I have an idea for came from watching a Black Bear Forge video.  I'd be glad to tell anyone willing to listen where I got the idea.  Then again, who would I credit for the design of the broach since it is at least a thousand years old, or the idea of a chunk of steel and flint to make a fire would be equally old.

But I do plan on putting them for sale on a table at some local events next summer, when I have gotten competent at making them.  And I might start an Etsy store.  I'm not seeing where that might be a problem if I do not claim the the design purely as mine, as long as it bears my touchmark and cannot be passed off as something as other than it is.  

I don't see a problem with this.  Am I missing something?  Am I stealing an idea if I start wrapping the handle of a bottle opener in leather because someone else talked about it on this forum?  I wouldn't think so.

 

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Well that's  the thing.  I read through the thread and tried to put things together in a way that is logical and ethical both.  There is a lot of discussion of copyright and patents and such that would make sense if one were edging close to more directly copying someone else's work that is unique in some way, or making use of touchmarks or not in a way that could be confusing, and a lot of stuff that might be case specific.  It's tricky to separate that from a much more specific, rubber meets the road kind of way.  That's  why I posted my summation of the way I would do business and asked if there was something I missed.  What may be fairly obvious to some may not always be obvious to another, especially as someone who has never really looked beyond the creativity side of things and on to the business end.  I'm fairly sure I wouldn't be doing anything against the letter of the law, in my case, but I'd like to avoid an obvious faux pas.  Most specifically in the case of online type sales.  I don't think there would be any sort of issue with a table at a comic con or craft fair, where sales are in person and there is no competition for the most part.

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A thousand answers. Here's a few.

1 beginners steal, experts borrow

2 copying is the greatest form of flattery

3 if you can match my skill level and techniques and duplicate my work, then if I need help I'll call you.

4 if you can match my work, then I'm happy to see your variation on my theme.

5 this question when applied to hand work is redundant and is usually asked by those who can't.

6 It usually costs more to contest it than it's worth. Might as well just move on to my next job.

7 much ado over nothing.

Hope this helps.

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A Variation: "Don't worry about being *first*; worry about being *best*!"

What happens if you attribute the design to someone and it turns out they got it from someone else and didn't  mention that.

What happens if you came up with a design totally on your own and later found that someone somewhere, somewhen else came up with the same idea on their own?

In Armourmaking, some of the skilled people are happy to help new folks make their own; as most times the new people learn that those outrageous prices are really really cheap!  (And preferentially buy from the "nice guy" thereafter!)

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I guess what I'm asking is are there any considerations that I am missing, be it an ethical consideration or something that is "not done" in the realms I said I would likely be working in like online sales or at a booth at a con or a Ren faire.  I 'think" there is not a problem as I stated things, but I also know that in many groups there are a few things that a newcomer can stumble upon that seem to be common knowledge among those who have been there for a while (those usually fall into the 'not done' category).  If, by some stars aligning, I didn't really miss anything, that's great.  

And thanks for the replies everyone.

 

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One more. If you are good enough to copy someone's work, then there's no need to copy someone's work.

I find it far more constructive to acknowledge the person who turned you on to particular techniques. That is the real treasure and the greatest sharing of all.

 

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Anvil, 

I have to disagree with the axiom you present here. There can be times when, if you are good enough, you need to copy someone else's work. It can even be encouraged that the artist or student that is good enough, do so in order to achieve their own outcome that is different from that which they copied. Work informs work; art informs art. 

I think back to a 400 level Poetics class I took for my undergrad where the professor asked us to write a cento for a homework assignment. A cento is a traditional poetical work that consists entirely of another author's, or multiple authors', verses or passages. A Wiki search says that the first recorded case of a cento dates back to the 3rd or 4th centuries C.E. where Hosidius Greta wrote a 462 verse tragedy of hexameters taken from Virgil. Medea, was the tragedy. Homer was also a popular muse for the cento. 

Of course, writers of the cento don't just copy and paste verses and call it their own; they use them to create their own form, subject and meaning. Or, in my case, to add to and comment on a common subject in poetics: Poems about poetry. I wrote a poem about poems, which was informed by poems about poetry in order to achieve a traditional poetic form. Aside from using proper citation, what keeps the cento from being straight up plagiarism is the author's individual adaptation of the cherry-picked verses. 

As blacksmiths, we see the work that came before us and that which is contemporary to us, and we take those bits of work and apply it to our own for our own benefit. I might forge a plant hanger in a style I saw on Etsy and try to sell it on my Etsy page, but as mentioned here several times prior, it should not be considered theft unless I tried to sell it as if I were that smith who inspired me. I like to think Greta signed his name on Medea, not Virgil's. Pay homage to ideas and creations and keep them alive by repeating, adapting, sharing and benefiting from them. 

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Me thinks you like the sound of your words.  ;) Verily, thus spoketh the traditional smith.

As I understand it the purpose of your 400 level class was to have you study the works of a person or persons who write in a particular style. The purpose is to give you an in depth understanding of, let's say the structure and nuances of that particular style as expressed by one person or persons

I'm pretty sure the purpose was not to teach you how to plagerize his works. Plagerizing is not copying. Plagerizing in this case means learning his style so well that if you wrote an original poem and put his name on it, it would be accepted as an original. Copying means a word for word copy that you try to market as the original. Blacksmiths in Europe call the latter forgeries. There is no negativity associated with this type of work. However there are those who do this for less than honorable reasons.

I had a great comission. It was a historical restoration at the AFA. There were 12 wall sconces in the main dining room. 4 were missing. My job was to match the originals. I did. I knew I succeeded because I went back a few years later to take pics. I did not install them. I could not pick out my own work from the originals. I have no idea if the pics are of mine or the originals. Yet I show the pics in my portfolio and call them my own work.

None of this has anything to do with etsy. Most likely anything that you use as inspiration that you have seen on etsy was already copied by the guy you are copying.

It's your deal and your morality. Are you doing a rough sketch and having fun with your moment of inspiration? I suspect that if you compare your finished duda with the etsy guys pic they will be noticably different. Thus they are totally different.

Or are you taking a pic, blowing it up then going it at with calipers and ruler and Intending to do a direct forgery and selling it under your name on etsy. Lol, most likely if you did that with anyone's handwork it would take you a handful of dedicated years to make an exact copy.

And once you have that much time betwixt hammer and anvil you would have no need to do a forgery unless it was a legit comission.

This has absolutely nothing to do with being inspired by another's work and working it or parts of that inspiration into your own unique style accomplished by hammer in hand.

Thus my axiom stands and your disagreeing with it only comes from your lack of understanding,,, as your initial question shows.  ;) Isn't that why you asked the question in the first place? To gain knowledge? Or did you perhaps ask it as a lead-in to show us your how much you know about the topic?

The real answer is,,, .much ado over nothing. Get your inspiration wherever you can, hit the shop and have a good time heating and beating hot iron.

 

 

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This is an example of why smith's use touchmarks.  By striking your touchmark into a piece you are saying, "This is my work, no one else's."  Even if you use someone else's work as an inspiration it is your touchmark, not his or hers that is struck into it and proclaims it your work.

I've told this story before but it bears repeating because it bears on how your work may be marketed or sold after it leaves your hands and how much responsibility you may or may not have in that case.  Years ago I sold a dozen miner's candle sticks (aka tommy stickers) to an antique store in Central City, CO.  A few months later I was back in Central City and was curious about how much they had marked them up from what they had paid me.  I sent my then girlfriend (later wife) into inquire.  They had marked them up considerably which was their right but they had soaked them in salt water to rust them and were telling customers that they were over 100 years old and had been found in a local mine.  I was livid.  Upon reflection I decided not to do anything except not to sell to that store again.  Caveat emptor.  However, now, when I make a miners' candlestick or something else which is indistinguishable from a historic example I use, in addition to my touchmark, the year of manufacture in Roman numerals, e.g. 2020=MMXX.  

""By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

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Could use an engraving pen till you get a touchmark, (or a couple). Can sign or initial and date it. They range from cheap to expensive.

Plus the size of the touchmark depends on what you are making. Small can go on larger objects but large cant go well on small objects. 

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Just don't misrepresent your work. I doubt there's been an original idea in centuries, sure it may not have been possible with the materials and tools of the day but it was an idea and maybe design.

Adopting an idea, design and making a version is what we all do. How many important differences are there in a piece. Say bottle openers, how many different ways are there to open a bottle? I can think of 3-4 maybe and look how many openers folks here have posted.

If you think of something fundamentally different for bottle openers let me know I'll begin practicing on them immediately. Well as soon as it's warm enough in the shop. 

I make no secret about copying other work and so long as I am up front I sleep well. New folk think a patent is in itself going to protect them. It can't, anymore than a stop light can stop your car. 

Go make stuff, if folk want to give you money for them you have received the true highest compliment. 

Frosty The Lucky.

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Herr Frosty,

A patent protects new concepts that are reduced to practice.

in other words a new (novel), way of doing something.

For example a new concept hydraulic bottle opener. or some other brilliancy.

Industrial designs protects novel designs. A good example of this is one of Charles  & Ray Eames fancy chairs, (many of which were crafted out of 'plywood' like materials that were stem bent to their final distinctive form. (wiki this couple to read about them and see some of his chair designs that were everywhere to be seen in the 50's, 60's, and 70's (and beyond).

People/companies can file and receive a registered 'industrial design patent'

Copying a registered industrial design, is not recommended. (it's infringement and actionable).

But most designs are not protected, by them and can thus can be copied.

But there is one caveat, (warning). Copying to counterfeit a product is 'passing off', of someone else's work.  That fraudulent activity is grounds for a civil court action in "passing off".

There is such a thing as copyright protection of a design. But they are not common. An example of that is the celebrated coke bottle design with the "wasp waist". But that is an area that is beyond this post and not particularly relevant to us smiths.

I am very jealous of you. You are enjoying a real 'robust winter. And I am enduring a sloppy season with 

"Wintry Mix" *down here.

Lucky fellow.

SLAG.

* that is a local adorable euphemism for a mix of snow, rain, sometimes sleet, ice ,  etc. used down here.

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Another point regarding copyrights, patents, etc..  These are rights that a person has to go to civil court to protect.  No government agency will do it for you.  This involves patent attorneys, expert witnesses, and other expensive things.  So, you've got to have a lot tied up in a patent or copyright to justify the expense to legally protect it.  And most of the time the courts will apply the "American Rule" where each party bears their own costs which means even if yu win you cant get the other guy to pay your legal expenses unless his/her action was so shocking that the court will award all your expenses besides the damages you can prove.

That said, having a patent or copyright is nice to have if you are trying to huff and puff and get the other person to cease what they are doing.  It gives you more "clout" when you are threatening legal action and makes you more credible.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand." 

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George,

My answer was directed more to the person,  (smith),who was concerned whether he could  "copy" another's product design. And not the original party/person that created the design.

In most cases those designs are not, in fact, protected by a registered design. It costs a lot of money and is not usually justified.

Patents are not involved in the protection of product designs. Neither copyrights. Copyrights protect the expression of the idea/product. I.e. the exact or very similar words. or the over all look of an illustration, or diagram etc.

The United States law is different with the "American Rule".   In most common law countries the rule is "the law of costs". a judge can levy against the losing party some or all of the winners legal costs, (and that is way more than actual court costs)

The judge will assess and award those costs , at several levels. (e.g.no cots  "party-party, or

'solicitor-client", or total indemnity). It is up to the judge's discretion  solely, and those awards are rarely adjusted by an appeal court. 

The American system can have a party with deep pockets bankrupt the other party. Often well before the trial, begins.

Check out the notorious SLAAP suits.

It is said in legal circles that the quickest road to bankruptcy is through patent litigation. Why? Because the attorneys usually have a law degree and science degrees, or an engineering degree. The litigation is most always very technical, well beyond the capabilities of general lawyers so the legal costs quickly become prohibitive except for big business.

To make a long story short. The subject matter of this thread can only be protected  by industrial designs. (and not patents, nor copyright, nor trade mark law.) Non corporate parties rarely file industrial designs and the ambit of the coverage of them  is fairly narrow.

I hope that this note is understandable. I can elaborate if requested.

SLAG.

 

 

 

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Sounds like we all are saying the same thing in each of our own unique ways.  I guess that answers that. Be true in your motives and do as you will. If your motives aren't true, it will cost a lot of money and timefor someone to recieve "justice". 

An Interesting Francis Whitaker story concerning this. It has nothing to do with blacksmithing. He was an avid skier and he had a major interest in cross country. He invented a set of quick release x-country bindings and went thru the US patent process and got his patient. As a layman(me), apparently a patent has similarities with a property title search and part of its importance is to search and make sure your idea hasn't been patented before. In this case it acts as an insurance policy. Apparently after he received his patient another similar patient was found in Sweden. This preceded his. Thus he lost his patient and was awarded a sum of money in compensation for the mistake. This was enough money for him to move to Aspen. The rest is history.

 

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Slag,

I was trying to address the legal lay audience here (which is probably most everyone except me and thee) and was using "patent/copyright" in the very general sense of legal protection for an original "thing." My main point is that any legal protection is only as good as a person's willingness and ability to protect it.  That is very often well beyond the resources of all but a few individuals, not to mention the cost/benefit ratio of an enforcement action.

My other point was that having some sort of legal protection is not a bad thing to have if you are in the pre-litigation process of sending a cease and desist letter to someone who is stepping on your legal toes.

Anvil:  I had not heard that story about Francis.  International patent law is a very arcane area because you get into various international jurisdictions as well as whether your idea is unique.  Generally, AFAIK, you have to bring a patent infringement suit in the country which issued the patent.  And you may have to patent your idea in multiple countries to have complete protection.  Not to mention that different countries may have different criteria for a patent and may protect it for different periods of time.  A very messy legal area and thinking about it makes my head hurt.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."  

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