jlpservicesinc Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 Found this sitting on an old tree at a vintage abandouned railroad.. I had assumded it was steel as it was covered with rust.. Once I knocked the rust off it looked like wrought iron and after an acid soak.. It for certain has a wrought iron base.. I have included to pictures after the pickling.. Anybody notice something strange about this piece???? JustAnotherViking, Nice candle holder.. Like the way the details flow.. JHCC, OOPs my bad.. I meant the blade.. Not how to mount it.. Was there a place you had seen about the blade shape? It has a very lean belly and nearly all the crook knives I have seen have more.. Thanks Jennifer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daswulf Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 looks like the bulge was upset into it. Neat find JLP. Yup, Nice candle holder Viking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 3 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said: JHCC, OOPs my bad.. I meant the blade.. Not how to mount it.. Was there a place you had seen about the blade shape? It has a very lean belly and nearly all the crook knives I have seen have more.. Thanks Jennifer I wasn't working from any particular model; about the closest thing was some old drawings I saw online (which I can't find now, of course), showing such a blade made from a file with the end hooked and the main section pretty straight. This was just made from what I had on hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLAG Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 jlpervicesinc, Crooked knives come in a vast array of sweep sizes. The Lee valley catalogue shows many different styles that are for sale. (they are not the only retailer that does so, it was the first company that came to mind). The majority of such knives have more belly in the blade shape. (the most extreme ones are almost semi circular-like. But they are not common.) JHCC you made a very interesting handle shape. Is it your design or do some Indian tribes use a similar design? SLAG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 25 or so years ago I had met a birch bark canoe maker (French Canadian).. he had lived with both the Abinaki and the Ogunqint and had learned from them the art of the crook knife he had several dozen as he showed me which ones were from which tribe (each with only a few variation) and even showed me how they were used. He then went on to say he ended up with 2 favorites of which one had less belly than the other but both had belly and they were about 3.5-4.25 long blade I had never even heard of them until that point.. And like a lot of this thing now there are a lot of "Crook Knives" but my curiosity was more towards tribe and design.. There is a lot of information out there and a lot of modification of a design which is not traditional.. It's funny but old turn of the century hoof knives look like crook knives for some strange reason they all had like 5" long blades with 6" long handles.. Looked more like a sword than a hoof knife.. Was a crook knife modeled after a hoof knife or was a hoof knife modeled after the crook knife.. Before Colonist the Indigenous tribes had no steel? On 3/18/2018 at 3:32 PM, Daswulf said: looks like the bulge was upset into it. Neat find JLP. Yup, Nice candle holder Viking. Daswulf, you got it right off.. Very strange as this is a very rare technique with wrought iron.. Usually the shoulder is welded on.. This is 1.5" round.. the shoulder being larger in diameter.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daswulf Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 I like seeing that sort of thing JLP, it gets me thinking how they did it and expands on possible techniques. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 8 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said: I had met a birch bark canoe maker (French Canadian).. he had lived with both the Abinaki and the Ogunqint Henri Vaillancourt? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 1 minute ago, JHCC said: Henri Vaillancourt? Yes, that is him.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 Now just to be clear, when you say "belly", are you referring to the sweep of the blade or to the shape of the edge? In other words, ice cream scoop or machete? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 2 minutes ago, Daswulf said: I like seeing that sort of thing JLP, it gets me thinking how they did it and expands on possible techniques. Me too.. The only time I have ever seen this kind of thing is on a very large forging press.. I have tried a few times to recreate this type of thing by hand methods and while it looks good, the grain flow or compression isn't there.. 1 minute ago, JHCC said: Now just to be clear, when you say "belly", are you referring to the sweep of the blade or to the shape of the edge? In other words, ice cream scoop or machete? ice scream scoop. belly is the deviation from the center line of the blade compared against what would be a straight line.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 The castings cane out nice Hans, good job. After you break out the molds break up the large lumps of sand and "mull" it. This is usually done in a machine that has a pair of wheels or tires on a shaft that run against one end of cylindrical drum. By hand you can sift it to the original seive size and use a mallet to beat the lumps out of it and seive. Tempering is a little more involved, the right water content is important. It has to be moist enough to ram into and hold the mold shape but not so moist it causes steam damage when you pour. In shop class we tested by squeezing a handful into a lump then breaking it. If it left our hand damp when we opened it it was too wet. we then broke the lump in half, fi it broke cleanly it was right, If it crumbled it was too dry. If our sand was too dry we sprinkled a LITTLE on the surface, turned it with a shovel, closed the bin and tested the next day. 24 hrs. is a good length of tie to allow the moisture content to equalize. If the sand in the bin was too wet, we'd add a LITTLE dry sand from the dry sand bin. Frosty the Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 14 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said: ice scream scoop. belly is the deviation from the center line of the blade compared against what would be a straight line.. So, curved as seen from the edge, but straight as seen from above? Looking at the Crooked Knife page on Vaillancourt's website*, that makes sense. Maybe I'll do it that way next time. (This is a commercial site, so I can't link to it directly. For those interested, it's www(dot)birchbarkcanoe(dot)net(forward slash)crooked-knife(dot)htm .) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daswulf Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 I can kind of picture two ways of doing that centralized an upset. Both involving some specialized but simple tooling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reeltree Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 Viking nice looking candle holder, perhaps a clef note for the music lovers, Heat & Beat a rail clip to a hot cut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 13 minutes ago, Daswulf said: I can kind of picture two ways of doing that centralized an upset. Both involving some specialized but simple tooling. Presses have been used for for a very long time.. A large enough drop forge would do it as well. I haven't tested it for hardness.. Wrought iron to upset it in such a short area is extremely difficult.. It is square shouldered on the bottom.. It would need to happen at near welding heat with a top and bottom die.. What a neat old piece of iron.. Simple yet complex.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daswulf Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 I was thinking a couple dies as well but I think it could be done by hand. Wish I had more time to experiment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 3 hours ago, Daswulf said: I was thinking a couple dies as well but I think it could be done by hand. Wish I had more time to experiment. Well if you do attempt it can make it happen your a better smith than i am.. I have tried such things in the past and one of the reasons it is such a fine piece of work.. Every thing is perfectly in alignment and the ring is perfect as well.. welding the ring on sure.. super easy.. As you can see it is a direct upset. No shift in the fibers except directly on itself.. The end is only a tad bit bigger than the longer section also a slight taper.. Maybe a Railroad shop.. I can't place the pin but rail road shops produced some really nice work.. Making it is not the problem.. Making it the same they did with such a clean forging is.. Daswulf - Love for you to try it though even with a smaller example to scale.. It really is a unique piece.. In 38+ years of forging I have never seen another like it.. Thomas Powers - where you at? Maybe you have some insight.. I haven't been this stoked about a find in years.. Well 2 or 3 anyhow.. Reeltree -nice chisel.. Have you used these for hot chisels before? Wondering how they would hold up.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkie Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 Viking, strange coincidence on your candle holder! I made 6 like this, similar to yours, for Christmas presents this past year. Mine were made for the small, short votive candles. I really like the flare on yours...might have to do that on the next ones, looks really sofisticated. Very nice work on yours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reeltree Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 22 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said: Reeltree -nice chisel.. Have you used these for hot chisels before? Wondering how they would hold up.. No ,, is a first with a rail clip, another poster just did one this past week and the consensuses was a good source material . Got the tingle to do a little heat & beat today. That WR piece reminds me of a fence/gate rail top ornament, or the beginnings of a mushroom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustAnotherViking Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 7 hours ago, arkie said: Viking, strange coincidence on your candle holder! I made 6 like this, similar to yours, for Christmas presents this past year Very clean work! I think I was trying to put too many elements together and ended up with a mess. Think I'll go and practice scrolling on the vertical again today and try to keep it a bit tidier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ausfire Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 Thank you, Das and Viking. That's pretty much what I was trying to do, but had trouble getting the scroll to progress evenly. I'll practise some more with a higher heat. (I tried a troll cross with wrought iron today but the scrolls finished up like toothbrushes. But wrought is another matter. I keep saying I'll avoid it, but we've got a lot of it round here). I hate to finish a forging session on a failure, so made a troll cross from a horse shoe and it looks OK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustAnotherViking Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 No worries ausfire, I usually try to start the scroll at a cooler temp so it deliberately moves less, then the further back you scroll, the hotter I'd go. Its mostly a gentle brushing with the hammer rather than any directional force. Just tickling it into position slowly. As with all things blacksmithing, the correct way is whichever works best for you. Got a much cleaner attempt at my previous scroll idea, but not in the right proportions for the previous design, but the wife has already informed me she wants it for "something" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reeltree Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 Another thing off the "to do" table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daswulf Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 Nice looking tongs Reeltree. I'd be proud to make some look as good. Tonight I got my headache out of the shop. Test drive went well. Now I have to get the oh-too-intelligent transmission flashed. Tho it's driving great comparatively. Now on to fix and paint baby's room and then I might get to relax for a day. Ugh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reeltree Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 Thx, I Just mod the nail puller jaws ( sample laying beside) to a scrolling jaw, will do final tuning on a scroll sometime,,I have been finding shop stuff to do as a diversion from prepping for paint on upstairs rooms,,old farm house = a lot of cracks and a lot of work. Bathroom was remodeled 2 summers back, kitchen and bedrooms downstairs last year now three rooms left upstairs. Have to get into the right mind set to get motivated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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