George N. M. Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 Mikey: I think that it has a lot to do with the chemistry of the steel. Given the various alloys of steel and that some are air hardening I suspect that unless the type of steel is known any process of case hardening would be, "maybe, maybe not." I do know that case hardening usually involves a reducing environment, free carbon atoms, a controlled temperature, and time. Also, case hardening only penetrates only a few layers of atoms into the steel. The longer the time, the deeper the penetration. Could you get penetration of carbon from unoxydized acetylene in a O/A torch flame? Very possibly IMO. I would think that it would be difficult to get any sort of consistent results in a coal/coke/charcoal forge. You would also be fighting decarburization at high temperatures. The temperatures that mobilize the carbon atoms to penetrate the iron crystal matrix would also tend to move carbon atoms out of the crystal structure. So. my answer to your question would be "maybe but probably not." "By hammer and hand all arts do stand." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 George go watch the video if you haven't all ready.. It answers some of your responses.. The method shown in the video works everytime with mild steels be it cold rolled or hot rolled.. 1018, A36, etc, etc. Even works with wrought iron.. I kinda get tired explaining stuff over and over.. If you ever burn a bar of metal in the fire, it's the carbon burning out. Right.. Well, yes and no.. Once the metal gets to a certain point it's affinity for carbon increases and when done right (forge welding in a clean, neutral fire as an example) Most people will put the item a little higher up in the fire.. Anyhow, the piece will pick up more carbon than what is lost to decarb.. (this is a very slippery slope and will get argued.. unless you see it in person.. They you won't believe how easy it is. so will still want to argue it. ). I give this demonstration a few times a year.. and can forge a knife from mild steel, harden it and it will keep a cutting edge. The problem becomes a reasonable way to control grain growth which is the real problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another FrankenBurner Posted February 1, 2021 Author Share Posted February 1, 2021 yotebuster, the mini forge I used for the hammer is a 2 inch circle, cut down the middle and separated by 2 inches. The forge depth is 6 inches. We have made a 3 inch version (3 inch circle split by 3 inch) and a 4 inch version. We are playing with 8 to 9 inch depths for a little extra. I have not powered a forge with the 1/4" super yet. I just now got one put together so the next 2 inch forge will get one. Right now, the two inch forges are powered by detuned 3/8" burners. 18 hours ago, Mikey98118 said: I may be slow but I'm pretty stupid too No wonder I have always felt so welcomed here. Birds of a feather. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 Flocking and crowing is fun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dian Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 (edited) On 1/31/2021 at 7:46 AM, OrganIQ said: New guy- first post- I have been experimenting with refractory recipes for the last ten years or so- a couple of years after I moved from Northern California to the big island of Hawai’i... are you saying the gases escape through the insulating rock? Edited February 4, 2021 by Mod30 Trim quote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rusty Posted February 5, 2021 Share Posted February 5, 2021 Is this my first post? Gotta start somewhere. First off, amazing work to everyone on this thread! Took me two weeks to read through all the posts! You are all inspirations. Second, I'm still dying on the inside for any of the 3D burner parts to become accessible in either digital or analog format. I'm sure some posters have been waiting years Lastly, I'm here to post something on topic: the intersection of 3D printing and ribbon burner heads (and even casting). I look at ribbon burner instructions and I'm terrified by the idea of fiddling with straws or crayons or drilling or etc. Etc. Etc. It doesn't quite fit my own process design philosophies. So, I was wondering if it is possible to print the negative space of a ribbon burner as a single, reusable piece to replace all those straws in a block of wood. I can imagine several ways to do it. It may even be possible to print the side walls as well so that you just need to mix, pour, and remove the refractory block in simpler, consistent fashion. If the material needs to be sturdier, you could cast in aluminum? AFB, I think that if you haven't tried it yet, you may like the idea. It sounds amenable to tweaking hole number, diameter, spacing, pattern, depth, etc... You could even shape the holes to add micro flares, ribbing, anything really for your pleasure. I know that was a lot, but this seems to be the right crowd for figuring out the difference between potential and pipe dream. Have a good one, all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another FrankenBurner Posted February 5, 2021 Author Share Posted February 5, 2021 Welcome Rusty. Good ideas. As to the ribbon burners being cast in a 3D printed mold, it has been done a little bit. I have played with it but haven't given any of it enough time to understand the particulars yet. I spent a lot of time on the head, then the nozzle, then the casting process. I plan on heading into the ribbon burner territory soon. The only other one I can remember off the top of my head is member jwmelvin printed a mold. I could not find his original post which contained the mold itself but I found his thread which shows the burner in action. I also tested some port shapes by filling a 3d print with water and running it as a burner. It worked well for learning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 5, 2021 Share Posted February 5, 2021 I think that there is an unfortunate lack of attention to detail; it is causing important design leeway to be lost by the ribbon burner enthusiasts: First, rectangular burner heads are not the best shape for flow considerations; simply convenient to build and install. Second, refractory use is a very limited way to create flame openings. High alumina kiln shelves, can be drilled with carbide glass drilling bits to create very sharply defined holes in that shelf, and even to create shapes similar to flame retention nozzles. Third, those drilled multi-flame orifice plates can then be cemented or trapped into burner heads, depending on what you wish to create the heads from. Google Joppa Glass to get fresh ideas, about multi-flame burners. So, why is Mikey popping off on this thread, instead of a ribbon burner thread? This is the cutting edge of burner design. I want to see excellent flames coming out of those ribbon burners, as the rule; not as the exception!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rusty Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 AFB, Mikey, thanks for the feedback. It really helps to be able to think more about these burners when you consider things a little off topic. Especially the kiln shelf idea. I have some, was thinking about drilling out a firebrick, and hadn’t put two and two together. You added value to my day, much appreciated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 Well, if you combine this idea with Frosty's drilled wooden board to test hole geometry in, you could end up far ahead of the pack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwmelvin Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 Thanks AFB for the mention. I did create my ribbon burner using a 3d-printed, burnt-out mold/core. I posted it here. The method worked really well; vibrating the mixture let it sink into the mold easily. Like Mikey says, a round configuration would be better for the flow, but I made a nice transition to expand the flow from the mixing tube to the ribbon. That's shown in the thread AFB linked. It seems to work quite well. I continue to believe that not wasting the flow's energy is important, so sudden transitions and turns are best avoided. I know frosty likes them for mixing, but my approach doesn't seem to have an issue with mixing. My ribbon is big and I'm still thinking about a smaller one. Making the expansion with a round shape may be harder than rectangular. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.J.Lampert Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 hello every one i am looking to buy a 3d printer and i am wondering if there is any you would recomend for begginers with decent printing and size but under around $700 thanks M.J.Lampert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yotebuster1200 Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 (edited) The Ender 3 is probably (by far) the most popular beginner 3d printer and can be had for around 250.00 (ender 3 pro is usually around 250 and you can get the ender 3 for less than 200 on sale). There is a large support groups on Facebook that will help you get going. There are also a lot of youtube videos as well. I would say the best beginner 3d printer is a Prusa Mk3s+. Prusa has a year after year produced probably the most award winning 3d printer. It will do more than the Ender 3 because of the hot end design and the direct drive extruder. It is pretty much a set it and forget it (click and print) printer. They are just above your budget and will be around 800 shipped. I would tell you to go for both flexible build plates (smooth and textured) so that puts you around 840ish. I own both and have printed close to 10kg of filament on the ender and 25 on the Prusa. Hands down I would buy the prusa again over the Ender. Oh wait... I just bought my second Prusa MK3S+ about 2 weeks ago . The ender is capable of the same results of the Prusa but the just makes it so much easier. I hope that helps.. Edited February 11, 2021 by Mod30 Excessive quoting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.J.Lampert Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 (edited) thanks the ender came up in previous searches this is the first i heard of the prusa my teacher says that he likes the delta type printers more dose antone elsa hold with this idea thanks M.J.Lampert Edited February 11, 2021 by Mod30 Excessive quoting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another FrankenBurner Posted February 11, 2021 Author Share Posted February 11, 2021 No problem jwmelvin. As to your expansion in round, small cones in sheet metal are not too bad to roll by hand. You can use several online calculators to get the layout of the cone. I wrote a small program which does the same but outputs a DXF file for scaled printing. I posted about it on page 48 of Burners 101. M.J.Lampert, I second what yotebuster said. The Creality machines are less expensive and can produce excellent results, however, they are very basic and require a lot of tinkering and learning in order to keep the machine printing nicely. The Prusa is more expensive but requires a less attention to keep running smoothly. If you like to tinker and don't "just need it to work" than the Creality machines are great machines, otherwise, if you have the money to spend, the Prusa MK3S+ is All3DP's pick for best printer currently. Over here we print on the Ender 3 pro with a glass bed and the CR-10S which are basically the same machine but the CR-10S has a larger print capability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.J.Lampert Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 thanks Another FrankenBurner any one worked with the FLSUN QQ-S or other FLSON products? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yotebuster1200 Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 I have never used a delta printer. Delta printers have their pros and cons. For me the round print bed is an awkward shape for most of the things I print so I never looked into them that much. They also almost never come with direct drive extenders so that limits some of the material you can print (flexible rubber like filament and even casting wax). They can print a little faster but that's not always the case. They also are nice if you need really tall prints. They are cool to watch print but they just dont match my needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 4 hours ago, Another FrankenBurner said: No problem jwmelvin. As to your expansion in round, small cones in sheet metal are not too bad to roll by hand. You can use several online calculators to get the layout of the cone. I wrote a small program which does the same but outputs a DXF file for scaled printing. I posted about it on page 48 of Burners 101. You should re-post it here. In coming years this thread will be more important to ypung makers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwmelvin Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 On 2/11/2021 at 6:24 PM, Mikey98118 said: You should re-post it here. In coming years this thread will be more important to ypung makers That's funny; I was scolded for posting across threads, along with posting too-large photos. It turned me off this forum for the most part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 Generally, the forum doesn't benefit from posting information on multiple threads. That isn't what I'm suggesting. Rather, I'm thinking that here is a more valuable thread than mine to post your information on. This thread is the future. Burners 101 is the past. Equipment changes, and how we do things must change with it. Nobody much is worried over the proper handling of buggy whips these days Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 Actually I once read an article in the Wall Street Journal about how the Buggy Whip industry was booming at that time due to the spread of Harness Racing and so the poster child of industries being killed off by changes in technology was running full out and adding capacity... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 This must be a great comfort to buggy owners; know any off hand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 Only a couple of dozen down by the race tracks in Ruidoso and other places and maybe one or two up near me. Back when I read that I was living in Monmouth County New Jersey and it was common to see horse trailers go by with harness racing buggies on top of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leather Bill Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 37 minutes ago, Mikey98118 said: . Nobody much is worried over the proper handling of buggy whips these days And that's a shame because I know a few characters that deserve a buggy whip skillfully used on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 Well, having been one of those characters for most of my life...don't think it would do much good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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