Mikey98118 Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 That is more than interesting; it's outright fascinating. Do you remember the brand? We keep telling people not to use refractoy cement for anything other than gluing bricks together. Maybe there are exceptions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 Do you remember the name of the refractory cement? Becuase I think it is remarkable, and well worth playing with!!! It might be excellent for use with ribbon burners. The next step in ribbon burners will be small portable ribbon burners, which would be very similar to the setup in your photo of a burner and fan together; only with a ceramic plate over the end of the flame retention nozzle, with multiple small holes; hint, hint Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dian Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 (edited) its called "nouvelit" and is sold by several diy chains for fireplace repairs over here. im not able to locate the manufacturer. it dries in air, is not hard to cast and pretty strong (flares survive droping on concrete floor from 3-4'). Edited January 27, 2021 by Mod30 Remove commercial link per TOS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 dian, Got nowhere with their site. German(?) only. Looks like the shoe is on the other foot, and us Yanks must do without AFB, Have you used propylene in one of your burners to test the limits of your refractory nozzle yet? The so-called MAP gas sold in 16 oz. non-refillable canisters at hardware stores are propylene. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another FrankenBurner Posted January 29, 2021 Author Share Posted January 29, 2021 I have not used propylene with any of my burners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted January 29, 2021 Share Posted January 29, 2021 Okay; it probably looks ridiculously expensive, because in 16 oz. canisters, it is. But purchased in refillable cylinders, which you must buy, it is about one-third more costly than propane, in return for about one-third higher flame temperatures; so, additional cost is a confined to a cylinder; propane cylinders aren't free either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yotebuster1200 Posted January 29, 2021 Share Posted January 29, 2021 Mikey, is there a lot of differences in tuning a burner for propylene vs propane? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted January 29, 2021 Share Posted January 29, 2021 None. But, there are differences needed in the flame retention n nozzle; it had better be refractory, because stainless-steel will certainly melt in a forge. Also the forge refractory will need an upgrade, or the flame size must be reduced. This is why my question was aimed at AFB; he is already involved in such changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another FrankenBurner Posted January 31, 2021 Author Share Posted January 31, 2021 I will have to play with the propylene. Sounds like fun. I was out in the shop, trying to dial in a new burner nozzle combination in the 1/4" burner size. I had it pretty close with one orifice but wanted to see it with the next lower orifice size. I expected to see this: What I ended up seeing was this: "What is wrong with my orifice?" I thought. Hmm... Works pretty well without the burner. A little rich though. The 900lb chuck daintily grasping the tiny printer nozzle to make new orifice assemblies. Preferably minus the leaks. The new 1/4" burner ended up being happy with the 0.8mm(≈0.315in) orifice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 You mean 0.0315" right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another FrankenBurner Posted January 31, 2021 Author Share Posted January 31, 2021 You don't like the orifice to be as large as the mix tube? Yeah, that's what I mean. Only one little zero making so much difference. Thanks Mike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 We must cover for each other or maybe the newbies won't trust us anymore. We can't have that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 It is amazing where all the experimenting has taken the burners. Micro burns and micro forges.. Wouild be pretty amazing to get the same controlled heat area as a coal forge.. That micro forge was really neat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrganIQ Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 New guy- first post- I have been experimenting with refractory recipes for the last ten years or so- a couple of years after I moved from Northern California to the big island of Hawai’i... luckily the landscape here is pretty much all refractory here, I have built dozens of forges for different people/ shops - gas coal rock-it etc, and there are really only 2 factors that are in play building a good forge: air- and the consistency of it. Let me explain... the first few natural material experiments all involved me moving shaping and setting enormous, dense, ocean smooth ‘blue’ lava rock and similarly dense and heavy black beach sand clay mud etc. they inevitably fell into disrepair after using copious amounts of fuel to reach inconsistent temperatures, while not factored into the equation was AIR. I purchased ‘satans pubes’ or whatever the most expensive thing I could find on the internet for some of my early work. Your oxide heat layer is at the bottom of the stack no matter how you slice it. , I happened to be low on the material that I had brought to the job site and needed some effective material to finish the forge in time for the client’s blacksmithing brothers to get to Hawai’i for vacation and honestly I was not feeling good about the project at that point. Basaltic lava rock varies with time and eruption but it’s pretty much about 70\30 Fe/silicates. I needed to go back down to a difficult, place far away from the job to retrieve the material I thought was going to be the most important part of the article. In my haste I stopped around the corner and saw a big pile of fluffy “a’a’” lava that had just been scraped and pushed off of a newly developed area. Much less dense, crunchy crumble. It rendered a good portion of the finished forge and was easily collected processed and set. I made mortar with a small bag of bentonite red clay and crumbs. The fluffy CONSISTENCY of the material was the key! And the many AIR bubbles turned out to be the best thing for the final air/fuel ratio needed to feed and sustain temp. The men arrived and about fell over laughing at the cylindrical- natural fuel, natural air flow intake of my ‘design’. I left quickly and didn’t have the nerve to explain it and defend it, much less collection of payment for the job. I left one of my favorite hammers by accident and came to retrieve it just after dawn the next morning, the men had spent much of the night figuring out the way to utilize the station and were exstatic at the results that they were able to achieve. Even, consistent airflow through and through turns out works efficiently and effectively. Oops. I received double the payment previous agreement. I still build natural forges in this style 8 years later. I have been working on making steel from the most recent eruption 2018 which buried half of my neighborhood in 30-100 feet of lava. I’m aiming for a 300lb anvil by spring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 What do you plan to use as stock for the melt? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 origanicIQintellegence, photos are for sure a great way to share work without a million words.. Don't get me wrong I like wordy.. But, photos coalesce the ideas and speeds things up considerably.. Years back I lived in CA and for some reason Obsidian was in the area.. Never looked at it as a refractory but as cutlery. I have wondered myself about basalt or air/voided lava.. Interesting for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another FrankenBurner Posted January 31, 2021 Author Share Posted January 31, 2021 Thanks Mike. Part of what I like about some forums is the constant checking of information. Anyone can say anything they like, intelligent or otherwise, and then the information can be questioned by the knowledgeable. Thanks Jennifer. Solid fuel forges are hard to compete with when it comes to localization of heat. Controlled fire size, higher temperatures, and the ability to shield some of the stock from the heat. I like liquid fuel forges in their ease and cleanliness but I will probably always have a solid fuel forge as well. I do like the mini forges. The new guys tend to like to build gigantic forges so they can forge anything they may envision in the future (anvils maybe?). When I was new, I made dozens of s hooks, leaves, wall hooks, punches, and eventually tongs. Taking a lot of time in several heats to make each as I was learning how to move metal and use the heat. All of that can be done in a mini forge and cost much less fuel to do so. To contrast the idea the new guys have, I like pushing mini forges to their limits. I recently forged a 2.5 lb hammer in a 43 in³ forge. I am also headed in the opposite direction, producing a burner which is larger than I need for forge use. OrganIQ, that is some interesting stuff. I would like to see some pictures if you can. When you say air, are you meaning as an insulator? Voids in the refractory? You said "the many AIR bubbles turned out to be the best thing for the final air/fuel ratio" and "consistent airflow through" which could mean airflow through the fuel which confused things for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 Welcome aboard OrganicIQ Inelligence, glad to have you. If you'll put your general location in the header we won't have to keep bugging you. I'm pretty sure you're hooked up with other smiths on the Big Island. One question. You've posted to a propane burner thread. Are you discussing a propane or solid fuel forge? I have trouble envisioning a natural draw supplying combustion air for a propane burner but I AM MORE than interested if you have one. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 One thing I've never seen mentioned is whether or not coal/charcoal forges will harden steel. I kmow that a lightly reducing oxyacetylene flame will harden mild steel... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yotebuster1200 Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 4 hours ago, Another FrankenBurner said: I like pushing mini forges to their limits. I recently forged a 2.5 lb hammer in a 43 in³ forge. What are the inside dimensions of your mini forge? Are you heating it with a super 1/4" burner yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 1 hour ago, Mikey98118 said: One thing I've never seen mentioned is whether or not coal/charcoal forges will harden steel. I kmow that a lightly reducing oxyacetylene flame will harden mild steel... Go watch the video on making swages on my youtube channel.. Explains it all sorta. Or even the thread here on IFI.. I think it goes into details.. Hard to remember. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George N. M. Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 Mikey: Are you talking about hardening steel by heating it and quenching it or some sort of case hardening where you introduce additional carbon into the surface layer of the steel? "By hammer and hand all arts do stand." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 51 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said: Or even the thread here on IFI.. I think it goes into details.. For those who haven't seen it, I have it bookmarked. Great thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 Okay then, going back about 50 years, I remember using an oxyacetylene torch to heat up and hammer out some spear points for a set of gates, then grinding them to touch them up. I noticed they didn't grind as is as expected, so I tested one of them with a file. It was much harder than I expected. Obviously the process had increased its carbon content, So, today a mere half century later, it occured to me that a lot of steel products produced in a coal/charcoal fired forge might end up semi-hard. I may be slow but I'm pretty stupid too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 Yes; a great thread. Questions answered in full. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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