Another FrankenBurner Posted December 31, 2020 Author Share Posted December 31, 2020 Thank you Mikey. I was surprised by this. It had nice timing. Some health stuff had slowed us down lately but it has all resolved for now so we are back to tinkering. We have started playing with different ceramics. Zirconia has a nice low conductivity and is happy at high temperatures so we plan on experimenting with nozzles and if it goes well, potentially forge lining. We'll see. I am still a big fan of the mini forges for any work that will fit in them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted December 31, 2020 Share Posted December 31, 2020 Great photos. My mouth is watering How about giving us some particulars with your ceramic nozzles, and where you are with ceramic liners? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted December 31, 2020 Share Posted December 31, 2020 AFB That is really cool and exciting to see.. Looks amazing.. Glad to see you are still at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 Do you have problems with the nozzles developing cracks, when you run them out in the opening, like in the photo? How do you get that nice smooth finish? How high a temperature is the refractory rated for? Do you poure it into molds? Vibrate the molds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yotebuster1200 Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 I am glad to see a little progress on the thread. I have been stopping buy every 2-3 weeks to see if I have missed something even though I get notifications when someone posts. Keep up the great work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted January 2, 2021 Share Posted January 2, 2021 Have you considered positioning the burner to enter the forge in the side wall, facing upward across the ceiling of the forge? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another FrankenBurner Posted January 12, 2021 Author Share Posted January 12, 2021 Thanks Mikey. I have a lot to learn with ceramics. Right now I am playing with different materials and mixtures and firing schedules. I have not attempted a ceramic liner yet. I am starting small with tiles and nozzles for my abuse testing. I am looking forward to messing around with ceramic forge lining. I have not run the nozzles long enough in open air to see if cracking was an issue. The photo above was pulled out of a hot forge right after shut down. The smooth finish is what came out of a 3d printed mold. That nozzle cracked because of a stress riser created by a seam in the print which we have since eliminated. I have tried burners faced upwards across the ceiling of the forge with a few forges. A couple of them are pictured in this thread(Page 9 and Page 11). At the moment, I prefer burners pointed down. I have grown accustomed to using the blast zone hot spot when needing to heat small sections without heating the whole thing too much. With the upward pointing burners, I placed stock near the opposing side from the burner as it was the hottest spot but it was a wider hot spot by then. Complaining about more even heating, what is wrong with this guy? I am not done playing around with upward facing burners as I see many advantages. Thanks Jennifer. Don't you have an axe to grind? Thanks Scott. Have you made any headway with your experiments? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yotebuster1200 Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 14 minutes ago, Another FrankenBurner said: I am not done playing around with upward facing burners as I see many advantages. Thanks Scott. Have you made any headway with your experiments? For forging blades an even uniform heat is idea but I think for tool forging direct heat may be best. I haven't messed around for a while. I have bought a few things in preparation of future experimenting but that is about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dian Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 there are so many burner threads i dont know where to post this. i have a dozen burners. some of them are bought, some i made myself. my burners produce a "roaring", short, blue flame and are fully adjustable for mixture to the point where they go out. if i take i piece of thin wire and hold it into the flame of any of the burners it gets to bright orange max. against a brick its the same. i guess thats somewhere around 1800°f. a forge cant get hotter than the flame, right? so how does it happen that peopke are getting 2200°f and more and even melting cast iron with propane? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another FrankenBurner Posted January 19, 2021 Author Share Posted January 19, 2021 Welcome dian. A better place for this line of questioning is probably in Forges 101 as your questions are forge related. The flame temperature of propane/air can be much hotter than 2200°F. The theoretical limit is 3600°F. In open air, most of the burner's heat is blowing right past your work. Your work has to gain temperature from the little contact of the small portion of the heat hitting it. It is also in a colder ambient environment so its heat loss is high. A forge is just a heat trap. It loses heat, the same as your work, but it is an insulated container so it loses it slower. It is able to increase the temperature of it's environment closer to the flame temperature because of this slower loss. When you place your work into this much hotter environment, it will gain in temperature faster and lose heat slower. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 I've melted steel accidently in my propane pipe forge as did a friend in his propane box forge. Mine was just lack of thought. I had turned up the regulator as my forge lining decayed. When I finally replaced it and coated it, it was running WAY HOTTER and I had forgot to turn down the regulator... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 Glad to hear you've gotten what problems you were dealing with dealt with. There are a few things I have to agree with here: First, not making a larger forge than you need. Oh yes, hoping I learn that lesson someday. Second, I like a hot spot in my general smithing forges too. If I want to heat a large area I can move it back and forth. Oh yeah, I expect ceramic nozzles to rule, I love ceramics. A good BRIGHT laser and a person could 3D print the entire burner less jet in ceramic. Glad you're back, I missed you. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 Huh? You can 3D print ceramic nozzles? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another FrankenBurner Posted January 19, 2021 Author Share Posted January 19, 2021 Full ceramic burner, now you are just talking dirty. This is a family friendly forum. Thanks Frosty, I missed being in burner land. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 Sure Mike, all you need is a laser powerful (bright) enough to fuse the desired ceramic. 40 minutes ago, Another FrankenBurner said: Full ceramic burner, now you are just talking dirty. MY, you HAVE been away too long or use burners in ways we can't discuss here. NO! Please don't PM me and tell me, I don't want to know! Not having you around to poke fun at has been a hole in the forum. Oh, if a person wanted to sexify a 3D ceramic burner a laser printed glaze flame job would be a start. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another FrankenBurner Posted January 19, 2021 Author Share Posted January 19, 2021 Don't worry, I haven't been gone that long. I may stay up late into the nights thinking about them but there has been no romancing with the burners over here. Poke fun away. I'm sure I'll add more fuel to the fire soon enough. I keep trying anyway. A glazed flame job would be cool. The shark mouth nose art would be pretty cool too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 There are way too many was to go low from here. I'm just gonna go be very quiet, until temptation passes by Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dian Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 frankenburner, thank you. i am curious what colour a wire has in the flame of your "super-burners". you must have tried that, no? i dont see how a forge will be hotter than the hottest part of the flame, or will it? (of course i have tried heating up steel in a forge, e.g. a small one i have carved out of a big insulating brick. it also comes up to orange heat only.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another FrankenBurner Posted January 21, 2021 Author Share Posted January 21, 2021 Are you using the wire color as a benchmark for your burners or are you just trying to understand things? A forge will never get hotter than the flame. Again though, the theoretical limit of propane/air is near 3600°F. While we will never hit this temperature, we don't have to. That is a lot of headroom for our imperfect flames. Like ThomasPowers, I have melted steel in my forge. Hot enough for the girl I go with. If I pull that same burner out of the forge for heating metal in open air, the metal will never obtain the same kind of temperatures. There is too much loss. I have not payed much attention to the maximum temperatures I can obtain in open air because of this inefficiency. I went out to the shop and fired up the test rig to cook some wire, just for you. It's hard to take pictures of as both metals and the flame are light sources but this is a fairly decent representation of what I was seeing. I always like the blue and orange. Ambient temperature was 43°F. This is bailing wire and 1/4" round stock. They had been in the flame long enough to stabilize. They weren't going to get any hotter than this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dian Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 i appreciate it. so i have to work on my flame, nothing ever gets to white color. its encouraging that the metal will get hotter in the forge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 You probably do need to work on the flame, but not necessarily. An oxyacetylene flame has about twice the temperature of most air/propane flames. It doesn't take very long heating with an acetylene torch to appreciate the power of dissipation. The whole point of a forge is heat conservation. So, how hot the flame is matters, but how well the forge is designed matters too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another FrankenBurner Posted January 22, 2021 Author Share Posted January 22, 2021 It really depends on your heat requirements. What you want to heat and how hot you want it to get. If you are wanting more specific help, you can post your burner and flame pictures in Burners 101 to get an evaluation and ideas for improvements. Then you can head over to Consolidated notes for new forge builders for a synopsis of building a forge with ceramic wool. You can also head to Forges 101 for much more detail. Curiosity here, why do you have a dozen burners? Are they all different types? Do you only have the small firebrick forge? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dian Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 thanks for the pointers. for your curiosity, some of my burners. they are o.k. for teat treating and forging small tools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 What refractory did you use for the flame retention nozzles? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dian Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 just some firecement i found at a local store. it doesnt have a temp. designation. i made thin samples and surprisingly they couldnt be destroyed by the flame, at least not by the flames im getting out of my burners. i even chilled them in water. (should have been "heat treating" in post above.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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