Another FrankenBurner

3D printed plastic burner experiments (photo heavy)

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Yeah, I did a double take myself. It turns out they get many tons of zirconia per oz. of uranium. Makes it pretty cheap though. :)

Originally my interest was that of a rockhound's son and wondering if maybe there's good cubic zirconia crystal hunting close enough to go do some digging a n d . . . Nevermind. :)

Frosty The Lucky.

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I notice that the cone section beyond your burner's air intake section has heavy folds; care to go into that?

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Mike: Are you referring to the curved flute, rib looking things on the outside of the intake: trumpet, cone, bell, . . . Uh, thingy? (I don't know what we're calling this structure yet.) See burner in pic below. Is that it?

On 4/28/2019 at 8:43 PM, Another FrankenBurner said:

185 Forge

Frosty The Lucky.

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Ah.  Those.  I originally thought about adding cooling fins in that area but no longer think that is needed.  Those were added for flair.  They match the rotation of the ribs and transition well into the hex area.

That is also the first version that has pipe threads.

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8 minutes ago, Another FrankenBurner said:

Ah.  Those.

Hold on till we find out if those are what Mike's asking about. I  know we often wonder about the same things but not always. :ph34r:

Frosty The Lucky.

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On 5/4/2019 at 5:40 PM, Frosty said:

Mike: Are you referring to the curved flute, rib looking things on the outside of the intake: trumpet, cone, bell, . . . Uh, thingy?

Yes. I had assumed it was a cast reducer section. Is this area a more radical air intake section?

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Sorry for the delay in response, I have been dealing with some health/life stuff. 

It is not a more radical intake.  The flutes are cosmetic.  The inside of the reduction is still streamlined.

v46.jpg.dc37abecd83f253ab6495fe28271a6f0.jpg

I have been playing with the NARBs a little bit.  Originally I was casting blocks.  I figured out a way to experiment a little faster:

narb.thumb.jpg.f7f842a316a8c2361e272409abcee629.jpg

Water cooled prints.  They can be lit until the water gets too hot, several minutes.  This plenum is supplied from the left side which produced the unbalanced flames.  

I still have a lot to learn and a lot of experiments to learn it.  

 

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I hope your issues resolve well for you. 

I like the idea of a water cooled ribbon burner it just needs a radiator and water pump to be the shop coffee maker, tea, cup O soup water heater. Sweet. :)

The flames look good, a little uneven isn't too important.

Frosty The Lucky.

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There are so many cool things going on in this thread. This prototyping is absolutely ingenious.

 

Does the increased friction from a NARB make it any more difficult to keep a reducing flame?

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For me it was harder to move towards a neutral or lean flame.  I ended up increasing the diameter of my mixing tube to allow more air to be entrained.

Side note:  I tried stretching a spring and inserting it into the mixing tube in an attempt to create additional swirl in the mixing tube.  I have no idea if this created more swirl, but it definitely decreased the amount air being drawn in.  Even when I went up a bit in mixing tube diameter (from schedule 80 to schedule 40 3/4" pipe) I still ended up with very rich flames of pale blue-green.  Using the same mig tip and T, but with an unobstructed mixing tube took me back to vibrant blue flames.

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If you introduce the inducer into the plenum at 90* to the outlets I seriously doubt you need to try putting more turbulence into mix. My outlets don't have consistent sized flames. So what, they're close and a BIT rich just like I like them. Hmmm?

I agree, "good enough" isn't always the right benchmark but for other things it is perfect. You can spend the rest of your life chasing: best, perfect, ideal, etc. instead of your dreams. I'd much rather play with fire and hit things with hammers on a boulder next to a campfire than spend years trying to track down the IDEAL anvil, forge, whatever.

I made NARB because looking at existing plans made me say, "Naw, that can't be right!" Then set out to see where I was wrong and why so I built it how I thought should work. Ding Dong DARN, I was right! :o I have a forge that works really well and only one more idea I want to play with, I'll let others refine the things. Maybe I'll copy you if it works well enough. 

It is fun playing with things though, keep us posted please.

Frosty The Lucky.

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21 hours ago, Frosty said:

I hope your issues resolve well for you. 

Thank you sir.  I was diagnosed with leukemia a few years back and I am still making my way back to humanity.  Bumpy but good stuff.   My father is now the one dealing with some health stuff.  He is going into surgery next week.  We view it as another thing to get over so we can keep getting on.  

22 hours ago, Frosty said:

I like the idea of a water cooled ribbon burner it just needs a radiator and water pump to be the shop coffee maker, tea, cup O soup water heater.

I seem to recall someone talking about a dual purpose forge/furnace as being inefficient for at least one of the purposes.  I think that same logic holds true with forge/water heaters.  :D 

22 hours ago, Frosty said:

The flames look good, a little uneven isn't too important.

Yeah but... 

15 hours ago, J.P. Hall said:

There are so many cool things going on in this thread.

Cool... I have been trying for very hot.  Thank you for the kind words.  I agree, cool enough that I keep tinkering.

15 hours ago, J.P. Hall said:

Does the increased friction from a NARB make it any more difficult to keep a reducing flame?

A reducing flame is the easiest flame to produce.  As Buzzkill mentioned, neutral or lean flames with reasonable output are more difficult.  The increased resistance does add a whole new challenge to the situation.  I look forward to experimenting with geometries to find the balance.

12 hours ago, Buzzkill said:

I have no idea if this created more swirl, but it definitely decreased the amount air being drawn in.

I have noticed that any little thing in the way of flow can severely reduce induction.  I had a few versions which tried to force things to happen.  A couple succeeded but at a high cost of induction volume.  In my experiments, finesse has been better then force for induction and mixing.

6 hours ago, Frosty said:

I agree, "good enough" isn't always the right benchmark but for other things it is perfect. You can spend the rest of your life chasing: best, perfect, ideal, etc. instead of your dreams.

There you go trying to slow unnecessary progress again.  :P  I completely agree, good enough is good enough.   My current burner is good enough.  We are very happy with it.  If tinkering wasn't so much fun, I would stop.  

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1 hour ago, Another FrankenBurner said:

If tinkering wasn't so much fun, I would stop.

Tinkering is it's own reward. Truth is what you've done for NA burners has me gobsmacked. 

Glad you're in remission, I'll say a word with higher for your Father.

Frosty The Lucky.

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Thank you for every word of that.  We'll get through our stuff.  We look forward to getting back to making these things.  Once we do, I will get one into your hands for a good testing.  

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I'll be honored to test the dickens out of it, it will be well and truly dickens free when I'm done with it. Just don't send one to me for free, your work for blacksmithing is a bargain at any price. Okay?

Frosty The Lucky.

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I have long intended on sending some to you and Mike, if you liked.  I think your reports back, at the cost of the inducers, would be the bargain.  Not only would they be third party tested by the trusted burner guys but if the reports back were good, it would be great PR for the inducers.  Dickens free, Mike and Jerry approved.  Not that I expect it but if the reports back were bad then I would head back to the drawing board with a better idea of what I am after.  I would sleep better knowing you hadn't paid for something that didn't live up to the hype.

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I don't see h0w we could end up giving bad reports on the--by far--hottest burners around; just not in the cards :)

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DANG IT, they keep melting the refractory! Ahhh, I guess that wouldn't really be a bad report would it?

Oh WAIT! I still have my old forge with the Pyramid Super, refractory no way one'll melt that liner, the stuff is rated for 4,500f max working temp., phosphate bonded air set plastic, that laughs at flux. Unfortunately it's not being made any more. :(

It'd be really ungracious of me to say no, I'll honored to test one. Heck, I'll be thrilled to get my hands on one! :) 

Mostly I don't want you feeling obligated, I love brainstorming things and this project is turning out to be a real gem. I feel good just being a small part.

Frosty The Lucky.

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I love the modern equipment and how he makes it work. Talk about an economical way to prototype. Can you imagine how long it'd take you or I to develop this idea if we'd had it back when? A couple few years if we were lucky? 

3D printing is right out of Sci fi, I could have dreamed of rapid prototyping from CADD drawings. Before the accident I could've handle the stupidly overcomplicated 3D software I'm seeing available. I'm frankly gob smacked, it's so cool. 

Ain't it GRAND? :)

Frosty The Lucky.

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I am glad if anyone has learned anything from my posts.  I learned a whole lot when I first found IFI.  I am just playing around and reporting the results.

I agree with Jerry on the 3D printing being something sci fi.  Not only can I produce any shape I can draw on a computer but it roughly calculates the length of time for the print and cost of the part.  In the case of v46, it states 2 hours, 59 minutes and $0.57.  These figures are generated by the "slicer."  The slicer is the software which takes the 3D model I produce in a cad program, hollows it based on a handful of settings, slices it into layers, and determines the layer paths to produce the g code the printer uses to run the extruder and move the hot end along the correct path.  To give an idea of the amazing things happening here, the g code for v46 has 444,274 lines.  

Here is a shot of the sliced model at layer 46 of 353:

sliced.jpg.9a4edfc853028a5e2c194af3683fb5dd.jpg

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My slicer does: tomatoes, onions, well veggies mostly but they're not that pretty. Does it do more colors?  I wonder what kind of slideshow it could make for wall paper? 

Frosty The Lucky.

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What's even more interesting is that they are bringing out metal-loaded filament for these 3D printers.

This lets you print a prototype that is 80%~90% metal content, and then you can Sinter it in a furnace (Forge?!) to burn off the plastic binder and leave behind a solid metal part ready for use.

You have to allow for a shrinkage factor as the plastic binder is burnt off, but you can put that factor into your Slicer program and it will scale your design appropriately.

They have Brass, Copper, Iron, Ali and varieties of Stainless.  They are still pretty expensive as they are new, but once you have more suppliers in the market, the costs will drop.  If you want to make a one-off it makes sense, if you want to make a few then the lost-wax(plastic)  method makes more sense.

Google: markforged

Google: thevirtualfoundry

Can't wait as this gets more mainstream!

Tink!

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15 hours ago, Frosty said:

I wonder what kind of slideshow it could make for wall paper? 

It will do full animation of the hot end along it's path.  It is very handy for narrowing down print problems.  We could find a workable solution for your wall paper.

13 hours ago, tinkertim said:

Can't wait as this gets more mainstream!

I am very much looking forward to this as well.  I am also waiting for the different varieties of conductive filaments to get there.  It is all very awesome.  We have been in the cnc game over here for a number of years but 3D printing is in a realm of it's own.  I still remember the joy of emailing a product the first time.

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