What would you charge to make this? (Time wasting "customers")

[JNewman]

What would you charge to Design and make 8 of these to brackets to fit your customers planter boxes? No ornamentation just plain flat steel.  Sizes on the drawing I made are just guesses based on the fact it had to hang off a 2x6.  but are close . 

I had a very nicely dressed woman in a nice car come by the shop today with a problem she wanted me to solve.  She wanted to hang 4 planters off a gazebo in her yard and the window boxes with hangers would not fit over a 2x6 which is what the railing on here gazebo was.  So she wanted to have custom made ones made.  I explained to her that I had moved away from ornamental ironwork because no one wants to pay what it is worth,and am primarily doing industrial forging.  This did not scare her away and she questioned whether this was really ornamental.  So I thought here might be someone who is willing to pay what something is worth.  I gave her a price despite the fact we are extremely busy with time sensitive work right now.  Rather than giving me feedback on my pricing she told me how home depot had adjustable brackets for $10 each but they were very bulky looking.  I then explained to her how those brackets are mass produced using dies and likely take seconds per part to make and are likely to be made offshore as well in a low wage country.   After this she mentioned again how the brackets at home depot were $10 and she needed 8 of them an how that was a lot of money.  What was a solution to her problem ?  Could we make wooden brackets cheaper?  (We were standing in the pattern shop  part of my shop  at the time).  I told here we could not make anything cheaper (after I had stupidly dropped the price on the steel brackets why I don't know).  

I cannot understand how people don't understand that custom made is MORE  expensive not cheaper.My shop is an industrial building in an industrial area, this is not cheap. I  would love to hear how much others would charge for these especially those blacksmithing for a living.  I will state what I quoted her in a couple of days.

I am some what annoyed about the 20 minutes or more of mine that I allowed her to waste today.  I might have been able to be home at 7:30  instead of 8:00.  Generally speaking I don't mind and even enjoy showing people around  my shop, especially other blacksmiths. But she just wanted (demanded) free advice on a cheaper way to  hang here flowers. There was a Blacksmith about an hour from here who had a shop and retail store in a touristy area.  He was shocking rude to "customers"  and while I still don't think it was justified.  I am a little more sympathetic.

 

[Frozenforge]

This is widespread in all trades and industries, people want American made, quality products at 3rd world wages and mass produced at the minimum quality necessary.

[JNewman]

Yea I did think I should have told her I could make them for $5 each if she ordered 1000 of them

[Kozzy]

Assuming we had nothing better to do, we would have made those for about $ 20 each to a friend or associate--someone who deserved a "favor".  There  is no way to make money on only 8.  Just the paperwork/overhead/accounting is going to cost a legitimate business the 80 bucks that HD was charging for similar--not including labor or materials for the actual parts.  Honestly...for a friend we would have done a freebie but that $ 20 is the theoretical "price".

Real commercial price...probably around $300 USD lot pricing and we would have likely regretted that. 40 bends, 8 cuts, 16 ends to deburr at a minimum.

The other side of your story is what customers WILL pay for some trades--Plumber hourly rate for example.  They seem to understand that a skilled auto mechanic costs about $ 90/hr and that plumbers or electricians are mid to double hundreds without blinking...but making something on a $100K cnc machine or by a skilled fabricator/machinist with years of experience and lots of overhead should cost about 10 bucks total for 4 hours work.  I've never quite understood the dissonance that allows customers to understand that some tradesmen cost significant funds while others with what are generally comparable skills and experience should be paid less than the guy in the home depot parking lot doing day labor.

$ 100 minimum in our shop for walk ins.  That drops their crap to near zero.  We pretend to have minimums for existing good customers but usually bend that rule a lot when it's not a big deal--give away the cheap stuff to keep getting the better continuing larger orders.

unless the job looks really interesting to play with and learn something from....I sometimes bend on those too.

[Frozenforge]

Made this copper dragon fly and a friend of my wifes asked how much and because it was a friend of hers I said 150.00..... reply.... Oh thats too expensive!

[Gergely]

Hi John!

Sorry to hear that - I hope your tolerance gets payed though as life can produce mysterious things.

Kozzy - those are very valid points, I try to remember them when next time someone says my little flowers are too pricy for ~12-13$. (incl. techniques are: hot forging, cold leafwork, gas welding, hard brazing, polishing and surface coating) 

Also - trying to be positive  - I'm glad to hear that even in civilised countries cheapness is shown towards crafted products. Although my joy is bittersweet...

Bests:

Gergely 

[Anachronist58]

I don't presently have a running business, but a friend of the family asked me to repair a compound bow damaged by saltwater fishing. After the grief I got, I said this one is free, and if you need anything else, that'll be $600 an hour. I haven't enough time left in my life to suffer tickytacky cheapsters.

My sympathy,

Robert Taylor

[Alan Evans]

It would be interesting to hear from any (jobbing/domestic) plumbers or electricians on here with a foot in both camps so to speak.

I have always marvelled at how much per hour they can charge for their time. Given the minimal investment in premises and equipment those trades have...and the narrow area of knowledge required relative to that of a jobbing metalworker / blacksmith, who as often as not are equipped and capable of basic plumbing and electrical work.

Maybe it is just their skill and experience which means although there is not much scope for creativity, the efficiency of their problem solving and labour means they can get a lot more done in that hour than a general handyman? So they are charging much the same as the handyman for the total job cost, but they just get it done quicker?

Maybe they just charge a lot because they can.

Playing to our strengths, having invested in machinery and premises, we either have to be economic through batch production or along the Art route where the singularity of the work has a premium. 25 years ago Tom Joyce and I agreed that 1500 was the minimum cost for a project we could take on economically. Dollars for him and pounds for me.

Alan

ps thinking about it a bit more I suppose the specialism of the trade is an equivalent to the efficiency of batch production economics...A jobbing welder with a truck and a single machine, even if charging only the same rate as me who has 5 welding machines and a building to house them, will certainly be more profitable.

[jlpservicesinc]

I'd guess about 150 for the 8 brackets + materials and misc if bent cold...   If I had to fire up the forge it would be double that.. 

Someone doing a lot of bending, who is good at it could knock these out in 30minutes.. 

I don't let people steel my time anymore when it comes to blacksmithing jobs..   I'm up front and will say my time is valuable.. If you want me to stop and talk with you about a project we can setup a time frame of billable hours on design.. 

I'll go as far to tell them to come up with a design and submit it via email so I don't get stuck on the phone with them..  I then quote it via email or tell them what else is needed.. 

On something like this, I will over bid the job if I don't want to do it.. I've done this a few times and the people still want it done so I end up making more per hour.. 

[rockstar.esq]

Alan,  I guess I'd qualify as having a foot in both fields as I'm an estimator for an electrical contractor, but I'm only a hobby blacksmith. 

I think there are a few misconceptions about what skilled trades can charge owing to the differences between contract work and service stuff.  Contract work is competitively bid.  The "better" the job is in terms of timing, minimized risk, and logistics, the more competition there will be on the bid. 

The hourly rate on aggressively hard-bid projects in non-union markets is very, very, low.  Think Quick-lube shop rates and you're probably not too far off.  It's a brutal fact that most owners of contracting firms aren't actually making any money.  Some ridiculously small percentage of them will actually be wealthy, the rest will either die working or they'll end up in bankruptcy.  Very nearly all perceived "wealth" in this industry relies upon riding waves of unsustainable growth and jumping out before the crash. 

In contrast, a service call is a fairly no-compete situation which is why rates are higher.  That being said, there's a significant investment in setting up such an operation.  Each vehicle in the fleet must be stocked with the parts and tools to handle a range of potential problems.  Commercial wiring involves a multitude of conduit types, each of which has unique fittings for specific applications.  There very literally millions of parts involved in electrical work.  Additionally, the ever-moving nature of the work means that it's harder to manage employees.  Good workers cost more.

Adding to the problem is the unknown duration of the service call.  The electricians are paid hourly and most contractors require that every minute of time be billed to a job.  Idle time is billed to the "shop" which is sometimes paid at a lower rate. When I worked on a service van, it was common to have five or six stops a day, yet we'd still end up with an hour of low-pay shop time.  That's 12% of a day's income at a lower rate, often because clients don't show up on time to open the door.

To the contractor, that 12% idle time overhead must be recouped via the billable hourly rate.  When things are booming and there's no lost time, there's an opportunity cost involved in taking on a low-paying service call which may keep you from pursuing a more profitable job.  Clients with intermittent problems that will require lots of man hours but little else may find it's harder to get someone to show up as a result.

Compared to a blacksmith in their shop, an electrical contractor doesn't have many tools per person.  However, the electrical contractor doesn't really have the option to make their own tools either.  Whereas one blacksmith shop could have several smiths using all the tools, each construction site would require several drills, ladders, saws, benders, winches, etc.  Even a small electrical contractor could have multiple power tools per electrician.  Owing to the ebb and flow of work, most contractors must maintain a warehouse to store tools and materials.  Most electrical contractor will have a warehouse larger than a solo blacksmith's shop.

Getting back to the OP, I think the tradesman and their craft today is viewed as a commodity.  People will pay double for a hunk of cheese labeled "artisinal" but they insist that construction workers come in the back door.  It's ridiculous that people see tradesman from their own communities as second-class citizens bent on ripping them off compared to a multi-national dairy firm slapping a pretentious sticker on the Provolone to justify doubling the price. 

I think these mindsets could be defined as either mindless faith or marketing where the only practical difference comes down to whether a person is buying or selling. 

 

 

[Steve Sells]

12 hours ago, Alan Evans said:

It would be interesting to hear from any (jobbing/domestic) plumbers or electricians on here with a foot in both camps so to speak.

I hold a Masters license as Electrician and ran my own contracting shop for 16 years.+

I have always marvelled at how much per hour they can charge for their time. Given the minimal investment in premises and equipment those trades have...and the narrow area of knowledge required relative to that of a jobbing metalworker / blacksmith, who as often as not are equipped and capable of basic plumbing and electrical work.

4 years schooling plus working to get journeyman plus 4 more for masters is not what most intelligent people think of as minimal. perhaps your insult is misspoken ? I didnt even mention tooling or ongoing education  because of changes in fiber optics and data transmission

Maybe it is just their skill and experience which means although there is not much scope for creativity, the efficiency of their problem solving and labour means they can get a lot more done in that hour than a general handyman? So they are charging much the same as the handyman for the total job cost, but they just get it done quicker?

Maybe they just charge a lot because they can.

Your walking on thin ice

Playing to our strengths, having invested in machinery and premises, we either have to be economic through batch production or along the Art route where the singularity of the work has a premium. 25 years ago Tom Joyce and I agreed that 1500 was the minimum cost for a project we could take on economically. Dollars for him and pounds for me.

Alan

ps thinking about it a bit more I suppose the specialism of the trade is an equivalent to the efficiency of batch production economics...A jobbing welder with a truck and a single machine, even if charging only the same rate as me who has 5 welding machines and a building to house them, will certainly be more profitable.

 I would comment more but I am fed up.

 

[Glenn]

We need to realign the anvils to north and take a deep breath. 

This about trying to figure out what to charge for making brackets. If the blacksmith can do it for $X.xx and the client says it is too much, both parties should reconsider the price. NOT change the price, but at least reconsider.

If the box store price is the standard, then have the client get the bracket at the box store. If the client wants something different then the price will be different as well. 

 

[rthibeau]

my anvils are oriented East and West......\

[Jim Coke]

LOL .... I had a good customer who drove me nuts ..   Many times when discussing work I was doing for him he would answer his cell phone and talk for 10 minutes or so and than back to me.. One day working on another persons project at the anvil with some yellow hot metal he interrupted me and wanted immediate attention and then his cell phone rang for yet again another delay for me . I fixed the problem by continuing with my work and when he returned to me I just smiled , looked over my safety glasses and said ..""  When you are interrupted by your cell phone I am on your payroll for the next job.!   End of problem ..

Forge on and make beautiful things 

Jim

 

[John McPherson]

Alan, I am just a dumb ol' welder (with a wall full of college degrees and certificates) so I am trying not to take too much umbrage with your implied put-down of other trades. Which is why I have not replied until now.

There seems to be a world-wide trend of denigrating those who work with their hands. Are there some nit-wits in every field? Absolutely! The sheer number of patients who die by medical malfeasance dwarfs the number who die in traffic accidents in the US. Those MD's who are responsible are highly trained, highly paid, and high social status nit-wits and not unlettered tradesmen, but still nit-wits nonetheless.

50% of everyone in every field is below average. This is why we mandate licensing, certification, re-qualification at prescribed intervals, and other measures for everything that involves public health and safety from driving an automobile on up. There has to be some sort of floor below which we will not allow activity.

Everyone seems to be acquainted with a least one lucky idiot (or conniving scoundrel) who always seems to stay one step ahead of disaster in their field.

[Alan Evans]

As someone who has worked with his hands all his life I am certainly not denigrating my fellow craftsmen. I am sorry my post has evidently come over that way.

This is a thread about relative hourly rates and job costing. I was trying to make a comparison between the investment in equipment and premises of a sole trader blacksmith and that of a sole trader who worked on site...ie had no premises overhead. 

Electricians and plumbers were mentioned because of Kozzy's post earlier...the same comparison applies between any tradesman that can work from a tool bag and one that requires a premises and heavy equipment.

The qualifications, training and experience I took as being equivalent across the range of occupations. I think Steve misread my post. I realise that some industries are more regulated and qualified to higher levels than others, There is a lot of work going on over here to bring blacksmithing, especially restoration work, into a more coded and regulated occupation. Welding is the most advanced along that route. Farriery over here is not far behind. But the Art and Craft college courses, the traditional apprenticeships and the journeyman route for the Artist Blacksmith are not without some redeeming features. They have got us this far.

My post was intended as a series of questions which I hoped others could answer because of my ignorance, which Rockstar did admirably.

So I repeat it was meant to prompt an informative response not an affronted one...sorry it misfired.

Alan

[Gergely]

5 hours ago, Glenn said:

If the box store price is the standard, 

I do use sometimes box store prices as a standard starting point - the minimum of my pricing is the store box price multiplied by 10. Flexible rule though...

[Judson Yaggy]

If Alan gets banned I'm walking away from IFI.  He is a gem, and his comments have been calm and analytical, in the interest of discussion rather than accusation.

 

I make a fair amount of my income as a jobber metalworker, and the balance as a timber framer/carpenter/project manager for a high end construction company.   So I guess you could say I have a foot in both worlds.  

My response to the hypothetical client in Mr. Newman's op would be to say that the hangers as drawn are a fabrication job, no advanced skill or artistry involved.  Perhaps they could be made more economically by a welding shop.  I don't own a press with air dies so that first tight bend with the rest of the piece tight behind it would be a PITA.  So no thank you.

 But... to that same client I would pitch the folowing.  If you want them to be something your neighbors will envy, or a one-of-a-kind artistic piece, then you have come to the right place.  I have unique skills and dedicated machinery, so my design and shop rates start at somewhat more than your auto mechanic's hourly rate but you will get a great widget...    This gets the problematic tire kickers out the door fairly quickly but plants the seed in the mind of the client that might actually want something cool (and has the $$ to back up the want).  They might be back.  A short time talking to a potential client is not wasted time.  If it's stressful something else has already gone wrong.  

 

Alan, I've met a fair number of subcontractors over the years that have made me wonder how they deserve their hourly rate.  My conclusion is that it's a mixture of liability insurance costs, client ignorance, designer/architect hype, and lack of viable competition.  The ones that DO deserve their hourly rate are often (but not always) electricians, higher end plumbers, crane operators, and structural weldors.  If these particular trades mess up, bad things happen and the job doesn't get done.  For better or worse liability, code enforcement and the education needed to meet it drive costs to a minimum level.  I'm sure you know all this, but I'm typing for the genaral readership.

Steve, how many hours of schooling per year in the 4 year periods you mention?  I'm honestly curious, don't thnk I've ever heard how many hours it takes to get Journeyman or Master Electrician.  There are 2000 working hours (before overtime) in a standard work year IIRC?  A good electrician is well worth the cost in my experiance, it would be interesting to know what the payback time for following that path is.

17 minutes ago, Gergely said:

I do use sometimes box store prices as a standard starting point - the minimum of my pricing is the store box price multiplied by 10. Flexible rule though...

I like that!  Seems low thou... (grin)

[Glenn]

21 minutes ago, Judson Yaggy said:

If Alan gets banned I'm walking away from IFI.  He is a gem, and his comments have been calm and analytical, in the interest of discussion rather than accusation.

We encourage discussions and respect. 

Sometimes we step in so things do not get out of hand or overheated.

[Frosty]

Oh good grief Judson, Alan isn't going to get banned, he just stuck his foot in his mouth after shuffling through the kitty litter. It's just to make the average folk feel better. 

Folk now days don't have anything to compare to they just don't know how to value hand made. Most folk born after WWII in America don't have a scale to measure by. I grew up listening to my parent's stories about growing up during the depression when if you couldn't make it or couldn't scrimp and save up enough you didn't need it. The only reason America is as prosperous as it is today was all that war production capacity left over after WWII ended. Companies and the US had so much invested they couldn't just let it sit. Enormous facilities and thousands of trained workers. Tank factories made automobiles, tract homes put thousands to work. On and on.

Suddenly any working stiff could afford a car and with a little sense a house. As kids we used to take road trips playing the "how many houses, cars, etc. just like ours can you spot," game. Without mass production you just couldn't afford the standard of living that became the norm.

After 70 years of mass produced goods how do you expect average folk to know anything about hand made? Seriously the cultural image is the machines do the work not people. We've elevated the art into the machines not the goods. Ever watch tin cans on a line? Thousands of little silver soldiers flowing in neat rows at blurring speed, this way, take a left fork, go up the others go down, get labeled, filled, sealed, heated, chilled, shaken stirred . . . whatever at 60mph. and come out in cases, sealed, labeled and stacked on the loading dock.

Look how many folk come here and ask how to get their tool to make x. How many can't make a spoon or shovel without a spoon or shovel swage? On and on. Folk just don't have the knowledge or cultural experience to know what goes into hand made let alone the value. To most folk now days in this country anyway, hand made doesn't have much if any value. Heck, planned obsolescence was invented so folk would have to buy new often enough to keep the factories from going broke.

It's a spiral I just don't know if it's a vicious one or not.

Of course that's just my opinion I could be wrong.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Gergely]

3 hours ago, Judson Yaggy said:

I like that!  Seems low thou... (grin)

Sometimes it is, that's why the flexibility

 

And back for the op: I'd do those for 10$/piece, but that's because around here 80$ for a half days work is not bad for a shop like mine. Actually it's worth even if I use oxy/acet for bending. (Totally useless comment, I know, but what else I got right now?  )

Bests:

Gergely

 

[Marc1]

On 6/22/2017 at 0:55 PM, JNewman said:

What would you charge to Design and make 8 of these to brackets to fit your customers planter boxes? No ornamentation just plain flat steel.  Sizes on the drawing I made are just guesses based on the fact it had to hang off a 2x6.  but are close . 

 

I wouldn't bother making something like that nor to set a price to it. It is well known that one off bits of bent steel or one off repairs are worth very little in the eyes of the customer. Whenever I get a neighbour dropping in with a piece of steel in need of a weld, a bend or a reshape, I either say I can't do it or I do it for free. 

I have a good story about that. I had the whole house carpets ripped off and floorboards installed. Big and messy job and had to call the floor sander twice, first to sand the particle board to glue the floor boards, and second to sand the floorboard themselves. Not cheap at $4000 from memory.

The sanding dude, could hear me working in the shop and the next day brought with him the shaft of a lawn mower that was broken and bent. I said sure I can do that. Didn't take long but was a bit involved because it was also worn so needed extra weld and heat and forge and grind and file ... anyway. I did it because I can. 

Funny part came at time of me having to pay him. His face was an open book. He was terrified that after what I had to pay, his repair was going to cost a bomb. So he had an elaborate speech as to how he thanked me for this little quick job I had done for him for free ... oh my ... it was so funny that I did not mind having really done it for free. 

Moral of the story. There is no money in repairs or minor domestic fabrication, unless you specialise in repairs and get them all day long. 

Second moral of the story is ... always align your anvil according to the location polarity.

[John McPherson]

I can't say that I know a lot of independent HVAC contractors, electricians and plumbers, but most of the ones I do know have a specialty truck or van ($25-75K new) filled with specialty tools and parts ($10-25K) and a shop that they go home to every night where they keep extra gear($?) Add business licence, insurance, bookkeeping/office/phone/accountant and a field assistant, and the overhead is significant, before you make a dime.

Are there some jacklegs getting by with less? A beat up domestic mini-van, some basic tools in drywall buckets and a cell phone? Going to the big box store for every bolt and washer? Do you trust that guy with your home or shop repair? Is he licenced and insured? How long has he been in the business?

The same dichotomy exists in blacksmiths. There are ornamental and job shops in industrial parks working from CAD files and booked months in advance, and there are guys that dink around in a shed. Don't expect the same price or attitude from both. The problem is, the public that either can not or will not appreciate the difference. That lady is one of those.

[tkunkel]

I have enjoyed the sharing of stories of customers and their demands.  It reaffirms that one should know what jobs/clients they want to take on and what jobs they should refer to others.  I have sold a few items at farmers markets and have been asked if I could do this or that project.  Over time, I learned to say no and refer them on to others.  It does come down to an education of the customer, that they understand the work involved, the time spent learning, etc.  Even if you put a video up at a sales table, customers can sometimes feel that the speed and apparent ease that you work, the price should be lower.  I tell friends that there is a recovery time for certain hammering operations (at least for me, a weekend/occasional hot metal pounder) and the cost of Ibuprofen to be added in!;)

My wife sews, but focuses and enjoys quilting, not making drapes or clothes, or even mending some item I ripped.  Sometimes, customers feel since you know how to do one general skill, you can and will do all items involving that skill.

Thanks, everyone for your input and making this a great learning site!

[Steve Sells]

Since it was asked for: current IBEW standard is 8,000 work (on the job training) over the 5 years apprenticeship in addition to 200 hours in class per year.