tinkertim Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 OK, Update time. Initial testing with V2 (27 x 5mm holes) was much better, running through a rich to lean sweep very cleanly. Turning up the pressure caused slight lifting of a corner flame, before it blew out, but the rest of the centre flames were steady, and I couldn't get it to flash back into the plenum as before. Result! So I thought I'd check its adjustability in the forge. I modified the forge design so that the sides of the IFBs nearest to the burner were sloped away, so that they couldn't heat up and radiate IR back at the burner hot face. Initial flame in the forge, not up to temp yet, and not adjusted the air/fuel yet. And getting close to temp, with the plenum completely cool to touch! I was so chuffed! Note the intense circle to the right inside is the IFB bung I made to block my single-burner inlet for this test. At the same PSI as I was using with my single-output setup (~5PSI), I found the inside of the forge was at a much more even temperature throughout and appeared to be running hotter than before. It is also much quieter as well. I have some short video clips as well but will pop them on Youtube another time if there is interest. Happy Tink, signing off! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 Yes, please, please, please post a video.. I'd love to see it running.. Love to see how long it takes for a 1/2Round to come up to temperature once the forge is warmed up to.. Or at least just a time.. On another note why not longer and thinner in the plenum.. I know very little in terms of gas forges or designs.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 3, 2019 Author Share Posted March 3, 2019 Looking GOOD! Standing by for the video link. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou L Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 Frosty, you have changed lives with this innovation. So much thanks to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinkertim Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 On 3/2/2019 at 7:52 PM, jlpservicesinc said: Yes, please, please, please post a video.. I'd love to see it running.. Love to see how long it takes for a 1/2Round to come up to temperature once the forge is warmed up to.. Or at least just a time.. On another note why not longer and thinner in the plenum.. I know very little in terms of gas forges or designs.. There isn't much to post at this time, as I was more concerned about being ready for blow-outs/blow-backs rather than extensive filming. I'll post up what I can later. As I'm a hobbyist blacksmith/bladesmith, I haven't had the need to do big rounds of steel yet, but one of the reasons for developing the NARB was so that I could have enough heat to make some hammer heads in the future. Having used some lovely dogs-head hammers at a blade forging class with basher in South London in Dec 2017, I would like to make some for myself. I also wanted enough even heat to permit pattern welding in the future. Regarding the plenum design, I'd decided I wanted to use Insulating Fire Bricks for my NARB testing, as it is very easy to drill (and re-drill), and I'd worked out I could get 4 test blocks out of a single IFB. I went for the layout with two 3/4" bosses welded on 2 sides, so I could chose the orientation that would suit my forge. The IFB forge suits burners with IFB dimensions so you don't have to plug gaps between them. The 3/4" boss on the short side of the plenum was ideal for this. But if I use the 3/4" boss on the long side of the plenum, then it will allow me to side-mount the NARB in a small Butane tank, with the AMAL injector hanging to the side, below the NARB. Fo my purposes, the IFB dimensions that I chose for the NARB seem to be ideal for me. Going forwards, trying to get hold of Kast-o-lite 30 in the UK is a real pain. There is a company called Vitcas in South Bristol (about 10 miles away) where I bought my IFBs, who also supply commercial quantities of various refractories including a high-alumina insulating castable. I think they only offer the lower temperature grade online, but I think I can get some of the higher temperature castable if I go down there in person. I'll give them a ring next week and see what I can do. If I can get it, then I can do some cast NARB hotfaces, but can also get on with my Butane tank forge. I'll keep you posted. Tink out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basher Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 8 hours ago, tinkertim said: Id be very interested in what you do, do you have the short choke amal mixer for use in ribon burners? I think its designed for fish fry type burner rings but should work for this aplication. I bought the mixer years ago but have never made the burner... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Rotblatt Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 On 2/25/2019 at 11:09 PM, Frosty said: Sounds crazy but I'd work up from 72 maybe try bracketing the right number and do 96 next. There are pictures of commercial NA multiple outlet burners with LOTS of really small outlets. OK...here's one with 123 holes. Really nice flames, plus the holes are so close together it might work to cool the block so preventing blowback. Wont' know that til I try it. Take a look! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 4, 2019 Author Share Posted March 4, 2019 7 minutes ago, D.Rotblatt said: OK...here's one with 123 holes. Really nice flames, plus the holes are so close together it might work to cool the block so preventing blowback. Wont' know that til I try it. Take a look! Oooooh that's looking really good! The orange flames should go away as the calcite in the refractory cures. Can't wait to see what it does to the inside of a forge. Way to go, you be stylin! Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Rotblatt Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 5 hours ago, Frosty said: The orange flames should go away as the calcite in the refractory cures. That’s just wood burning, I painted it with zircon/sodium silicate to try to get it to last longer. I’ll cast one up this week so we’ll see how it works soon! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinkertim Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 12 hours ago, basher said: Id be very interested in what you do, do you have the short choke amal mixer for use in ribon burners? I think its designed for fish fry type burner rings but should work for this aplication. I bought the mixer years ago but have never made the burner... Hi Owen, When I originally bought the Amal 3/4" injector, I figured that the long-choke should work in both single-port and ribbon burners, so I bought that one. I used an 8" BSP nipple to connect it to my IFB forge, with a step flare bored into the IFB at the exit point. It has worked really well in my single-port configuration but also seems to work really well in my ribbon setup as well. I can't really comment on the short-choke behaviour, but if you've got a plenum chamber for the fuel/air mix to "mix" it should work fine. It's why they sell a short-choke version I guess, as it must work fine in ribbon applications without a long choke. The 3/4" Amal Propane injector came with a 110 size jet as default, but @timgunn1962 recommended the 90 jet as giving a better range in single-port forge applications, so I use a 90 jet which works very well for me. I'll keep you posted Owen. Tink! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinkertim Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 OK, some initial videos as promised. First lighting so still pretty rich and waiting to see if it was going to blow-back. Adding a bit more air More playing with settings, to see if it would blow-out And some more First lighting in the IFB forge. Looking for flame stability at this stage. Playing with settings some more. Ramping up towards working temperature. Still looks stable! As I thought I'd let it heat up and see how even the heat was, I stuck a piece of 1/2" mild rod in the forge, just so I wasn't completely wasting Propane. Made a handy hold-down for my anvil. Very pleased with the even-ness of heating now, the whole forge was at the same temperature without any obvious hot or cold spots. Really chuffed! (a UK-ism ) I expect some feedback about flame colour, etc. with the earlier clips, but I was only playing around to ensure the NARB was safe to use. Being a bit Red/Green colour insensitive doesn't help me fine-tune flame mixtures, but hot enough is hot enough! I'll borrow the missus' DSLR camera and get some better clips the next time I fire it up and do some more serious metal bashing. Tink out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 Thanks for posting the videos.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Rotblatt Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 1 hour ago, tinkertim said: Being a bit Red/Green colour insensitive doesn't help me fine-tune flame mixtures, but hot enough is hot enough! Look for the amount of flames coming out of the forge mouth (the "Dragons breath"). From my experience; none means oxidizing, just a little is around neutral and a lot is reducing, yellow flames is very reducing. That's all assuming a clean forge with all refractory cured well. I'll try to take some pics, but it never shows on camera the way I see it in person... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 Regarding blowback, I've been getting backfiring once the block heats up, which is generally reduced if I set the pressure above about 5psi. I'm wondering if my holes are too big? I had to drill out the crayons, and I think that may have reamed the holes out a bit larger than originally intended. It was mentioned a few comments back that one might make a block with holes that are tapered with the narrow end towards the forge. Might I conceivably fix my problem by adding about 1/4" of Kastolite to the face of my burner block (well buttered, of course) and poking a skewer or something down the holes to make new, smaller ones? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Rotblatt Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 2 hours ago, tinkertim said: Being a bit Red/Green colour insensitive doesn't help me fine-tune flame mixtures, but hot enough is hot enough! BTW - the flames I can see in your videos look slightly green, which is a little reducing. I like that as helps prevent forge scale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinkertim Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 1 hour ago, D.Rotblatt said: BTW - the flames I can see in your videos look slightly green, which is a little reducing. I like that as helps prevent forge scale. Thanks for the feedback D.Rotblatt, The mild steel bar I just heated up to test out the forge had minimal scaling when I forged it over my Anvil's bick to make a hold-down. There was a little dragons breath, but I was playing with partially blocking off some of the front and back holes, so was expecting a fair bit, but it wasn't particularly yellow. It was also very reassuring when the plenum was cool to touch even when the forge was up to temp! Big sigh of relief! I want to try some simple forge welding, just to ensure that my setup will reach welding temps. I might also try the 110-sized jet for the Amal injector, just to see how it behaves compared to the 90. I think the 90 induces more air, so should have a better turn-down range without blowing-back the flame, but the 110 might reach higher temps at higher PSI. I'll keep experimenting, as this is fun, and feeds my need to tinker! Tink out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another FrankenBurner Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 I don't believe a smaller jet induces more or less air at a given pressure. It adds more fuel. Where you already have possibly rich flames, I suspect a larger jet will make the flame more rich. Worth trying though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.P. Hall Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 At some point you need to team up with the guy prototyping burner intake heads with a 3d printer: https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/61034-3d-printed-plastic-burner-experiments-photo-heavy/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basher Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 Tinkertim , is the burner quieter than a standard burner arrangement with the Amal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinkertim Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 Hi Owen, I believe that it is quieter, but its more of a rush of air with the ribbon than a roar of a jet that the single-port burner has. It is definitely not so harsh a sound. I want to get some evidence of this myself, and as my IFB forge can take the single-port and the NARB burner at the same time, I can test the NARB with a neutral-ish mix at a range of PSI, and then repeat it immediately afterwards in the hot forge with the Amal in my single-port setup. Cool! I'll record some clips from the same distances and we can compare how noisy they seem. I'll see if I can sort it out later in the week, I'm dealing with a bit of a throat lurg at the moment. Catch you later, Tink out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 5 minutes ago, tinkertim said: I'll record some clips from the same distances and we can compare how noisy they seem. You can also get a decibel meter app for your smartphone, if you have such a device. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinkertim Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 1 hour ago, J.P. Hall said: At some point you need to team up with the guy prototyping burner intake heads with a 3d printer: https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/61034-3d-printed-plastic-burner-experiments-photo-heavy/ Hi JP, I'm not sure if you were replying to me or Another FrankenBurner (AFB), as he is the guy who is doing all the 3D printing experimentation with "Vortex Inducers" at the moment. From my point of view I'm using a professional Propane air/fuel mixer which is highly adjustable from very lean to very rich. I saw them being used at Owen Bush's Blacksmithing school in South London and found they did a superb job of getting the fuel/air just right. That's why I decided to buy one of these Amal Propane injectors then, rather than make my own, just so I could get on with the bashing of hot metal. I am very pleased with the Amal injectors performance, and wouldn't hesitate to recommend them. I will get round to making my own burners as well, and I will probably make my own 3D printed vortex injector in AFB's style, just because it is fun experimenting, and I can. Tink out! 6 minutes ago, JHCC said: You can also get a decibel meter app for your smartphone, if you have such a device. Hi JHCC, I will be doing some sound pressure readings as well, but I think it is more the nature of the sound, where I believe there are more high frequencies in the single-port burner than the ribbon one. I will do some recordings and look at the frequency spectrum, but for me, the ribbon burner with its many smaller flames is just not so intense. Anyway, when I've got some comparative data I'll post it up. Tink out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 Science! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 4, 2019 Author Share Posted March 4, 2019 14 hours ago, D.Rotblatt said: That’s just wood burning, I painted it with zircon/sodium silicate to try to get it to last longer. I’ll cast one up this week so we’ll see how it works soon! And you SAID it was one of your test blocks too! I blame the dents! It's probably NOT calcite then. We REALLY need a "Slapping my head" emoji. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 Possibly a calcite-rich species of hardwood? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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