Frosty

Naturally Aspirated Ribbon Burner. Photo heavy.

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I've got a mask spec'ed for heavy-metal vapour, and I might just burn the relevant areas off with the torch outside in the garden.  I know the dangers of heavy-metal poisoning when you heat or weld anything galvanised, hence the breathing mask I wear under my face mask when welding any.  I've done a fair bit in the past, and always used a breathing mask rated for metal-vapour.

It's just the size of this bucket gets me the forge volume I was after, with a little extra width when needed for curved/bent forgings.

Tink!

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6 hours ago, tinkertim said:

and will coating the inner, and outer edges with the Colloidal Silica slurry and Zircopax mix

I found the mix will not stick well to metal.  I believe the expansion of the metal is different then the shell mixture, so it flakes off if it heats up much.  Not an issue when it's on ceramic blanket which is a bit flexible (even when rigidizied).

6 hours ago, Frosty said:

You don't want to breath zinc oxide smoke, it's BAD for you.

Actually not the horrible rap I read on most of the forums, but not great for you.  People are really scared of any exposures, some with good reason, some with less.    A fume extraction system is required to weld galvanized or in Brass Foundries to help prevent MFF.  In a home shop working outside and upwind or with a fan behind you to keep you from breathing any fumes is best.  Metal Fume Fever from zinc resolves in 24 or so hours without lasting effects.  In the interests of knowledge, here's a good article:

 

216507990805600506

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Mr. Rotblatt,

Metal fume fever can kill, quickly if the dose is high enough.

A good friend of mine killed himself torching off galvanized metal, whilst constructing a new smithy.

Repeated exposure to lower doses will take years off your natural lifespan.

I suggest that you look at the references* Glenn has cited in his post just above mine.

SLAG.

Your suggestions concerning handling galvanized metal are good. Let me add one more, wear a chemical respirator, during the procedure.

*and read them.

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I knew I'd get response to this. I always advocate safety.  Sometimes it is better to be scared off, but we are adults and real knowledge is a better foundation.

Yes, don't breath it. Totally agreed. Especially with beginners it is always better to err on the side of caution.  I read a number of the links and the reference, thank you.  While MFF from zinc is no picnic, other heavy metals pose a greater health risk.  Cadmium, lead, nickel, etc are all much more dangerous long or short term.  Secondary illness if one is prone is, I imagine, also a serious concern (i.e. pneumonia or other pulmonary issues).  Chronic exposure is another issue altogether and poses other health risks, so constantly using galvanized steel is really a bad idea, even with good handling procedures.

The upshot, is don't expose yourself to zinc fumes, especially on a chronic bases.  But you can work occasionally with zinc with proper handling (outdoors, wind/fan behind you, with a respirator).  Just be aware of the issues.

I personally would not work with other heavy metals in the home studio at all.

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I agree Dan, nor is it heavy metal poisoning and certainly not the cause for panic you see online. Heck without zinc oxide we die, it's necessary for keeping tissue, skin especially flexible and elastic. Still it's a bad thing to breath and to excess a serious hazard.

The incident that's cited most often here as the reason panic isn't over reaction was a fatal overdose by a person with COPD who knew better and didn't seek medical attention till too late. He died of pneumonia, not poisoning.

Glenn I hate to say it but two of your links are not good cites, you're just referring back to the same discussion held at another time. The third link on the other hand is a decent reference and brings my next point to the fore.

Poisoning is NOT a matter of kind, it's a matter of quantity, there are very few if any elements that are poisonous in a small enough quantity, there was a safe allowance for plutonium even and many folks have been carrying more in their system since the  Manhattan Project. The article is largely about how heavy metal is defined and what if any place they play in human physiology. Your 3rd. link is a good read I recommend it.

I see Dan's replied while I was reading and typing. I'm with you Dan I've heard a lot of loud protests some even angry for saying you don't have to run screaming if you see galvy get hot. I also preach better safe than sorry, especially if you don't know enough about zinc oxide to know it's not a panic and run away issue. 

From a field guy's, working notes, standing with the wind at your back will cause slip stream eddies that will carry smoke and fumes directly under a welding shield. You are out of the stream if you stand with the breeze from the side, I prefer the breeze coming from my left so it carries any smoke away from the bead allowing me to see the puddle more clearly. With a breeze coming from either side fumes are carried away from your face, any slip stream effects are to your side and NOT in your face.

Slag: will you link your cites, please? I know you know what you're talking about, it was your specialty so to speak but I'd like to read the articles. If I've shortened my life with all the galvy I've torched & welded on I'd like to know how much and what to expect in the future.

Frosty The Lucky.

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Frosty, thank you for identifying the less than appropriate links. Please suggest better links so they can be used instead. 

Zinc fumes can easily be avoided, leave the area. Grinding zinc coatings makes the zinc particles airborne and they can settle everywhere. A breeze or walking through the area can make them airborne again. This takes things a little more difficult to avoid   

For the average fellow it is easier to provide a warning and have them avoid the exposure.  Yes, you can work with zinc and other metal coatings if you know the precautions to take, and the right personal protection to use.

When dealing with this type hazard, the cost of the metal vs the cost of your health (being sick), and the cost of a hospital visit is a personal choice you make.  Please educate yourself before you make that choice.

 

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You're right Glenn, I should've provided links when pointing out ones that weren't good examples. MY bad. I didn't mean to imply they were inappropriate I intended to say they lacked objectivity and medical data. 

The CDC site is down so no link.

The first is about what I was taught in welding school and the regular safety and 1st. aid classes we took working for AK DOT. Road maintenance personnel are 1st. responders in disasters, spills, etc. This was a search using the terms, "zinc oxide smoke hazard" and the last link included MSDS in the terms. There is a disappointing dearth of MSDS sheets regarding zinc smoke and metal fume fever. All the 1st. aid advice is for EXTREME exposure. 

The 2nd. link is regarding dust and particulate exposures, that took some looking and different terms.

Frosty The Lucky.

http://www.sperkoengineering.com/html/articles/WeldingGalvanized.pdf

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2796768/

https://nj.gov/health/eoh/rtkweb/documents/fs/2037.pdf

http://www.inchem.org/documents/ukpids/ukpids/ukpid87.htm

https://beta-static.fishersci.com/content/dam/fishersci/en_US/documents/programs/education/regulatory-documents/sds/chemicals/chemicals-z/S25641.pdf

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Frosty,

I do not that your exposure to zinc fumes will shorten your lifespan. you have not indicated that you suffered acute episode(s) of metal fume fever.

You also have not mentioned bouts of mild acute poisoning.

Given your age bracket, zinc buildup would have caused problems years ago.

Some symptoms of severe poisoning are a dramatic loss of the sense of smell. (a.k.a.  anosmia). Etc. etc.

Sub-acute exposure usually resolves, especially flu-like symptoms in one or two days. with one to three weeks. (that does not include zinc particles in the lungs).

Some reasons for my not appending literature references and citations are:

1) the cut and paste function, of my computer program works for all sites. But does not work on I. forge I.

2) my extensive library will finally come out of storage in about 3 weeks from today.

You can get some good information from,

Wikipedia, "zinc , " (section 7 and 7.1),  and "metal fume fever",  and "zinc toxicity".

Medline Medical Encyclopedia,  (Medline plus), "zinc", (be sure to hit the "more" button, cited at the bottom of the page.)

Occupational and Environmental medicine, Vol. 60,  (9), 655-661.,

Petilla et al.,  "zinc chloride inhalation a rare cause of acute respiratory distress", Intensive Care Medicine volume 26 215-21. (for the gory details).

And hundreds of other citations in numerous sites.

You are right Jim Wilson succumbed to pneumonia. But that pneumonia was caused by the zinc ions destroying lung tissue that usually flushes CO2 and fluid out of the lungs.(the feather like cilia on the outer surface of the lung epithelial cells were paralyzed and stopped beating). Thus fluid collected and he essentially drowned.

This response was composed while you posted again.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

Regards,

SLAG.

I will get back to cooking the Malaysian culinary specialty, Chicken Curry Kapitan. for dinner.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Frosty said:

will cause slip stream eddies that will carry smoke and fumes directly under a welding shield.

Not precisely the same parameters, but observe how the smoke is being pulled right up and under my shield. Was a bad day. My spotter forgot his job.

20160227_172324 (1).jpg

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Looks dead calm and you need a spotter to tell you smoke rises? Should I let it go at that or do I get to start making snide remarks? :rolleyes:

I'll have to read the links I posted in more depth but none listed long term effects except for particulate inhalation or ingestion, to the depth I've read. 

I only stopped regularly exposing myself to zinc smoke about the time of the accident, '09 but I've never allowed myself an extreme exposure. We were getting blue flu in jr. high shop class learning to braze, some kids heat control was so poor they filled the class room with white feathery smoke. That's where we learned the Tuesday flu was only good for Tuesday off and after about 2 weeks it stopped bothering you unless you really dosed yourself. These same brainy yaks were still filling the room with zinc smoke in high school occupational metal shop 6 years later. I don't believe any ever passed the hands on welding test. 

When I mentioned I was a welder after starting work for AK DOT materials lab I started making lab benches, stands, etc. and got tapped to go out with the drill crews. Breathed a LOT of zinc smoke there, bent and broken sign posts are galvy telspar and in a big pile in the yard. Not having to charge materials against the budget made me popular so I got lots of those kinds of projects. While drilling we had to break guard rails regularly and I know how to do it and repair the break so the local road maint crews didn't have to. 

When I transferred to road maint. I spent a lot of time on the guardrail crew torching bent rail and was once again in the make stuff from telspar business.

So yeah, I've been exposing myself to zinc smoke since I was 12 or so. I know about Tuesday flu, Tuesday because you miss work sick on Tuesday not Monday. Blue flu because the smoke is bluish white and leaves a blue smoke stain on stuff including your clothes. 

Zinc oxide is water soluble so can't build up in your system. Zinc Chloride is something else and appears a lot more dangerous but I only read a little bit in Patilla right now so I have no opinion. 

The lacy aspect of zinc smoke is due to the shape of the molecules, they are long sharp and sort of twisty, it allows them to link together and forms the lacy smoke. A heavy exposure causes these particles to puncture the aveoli and can pin them together in extreme exposures. At this level exposure a victim needs to be hospitalized or at least put on oxygen till the particles can be dissolved and absorbed, the aveoli heal almost immediately. Medications may be necessary to counter the high levels of zinc oxide in the blood, too much of anything is toxic.

This is what killed Jim Wilson, he didn't get medical attention until he was in such bad condition he couldn't argue with his wife out of it. Sure, he opened two roll up doors and all the windows in his shop but he was burning the galvy off cut pieces of pipe in a gas forge. IIRC reloaded it a couple times and didn't leave the shop. 

He refused rudimentary medical care and had been suffering COPD for . . . how many years Glenn? His lung tissue wasn't destroyed by zinc it was incapacitated by the physical presence and shape of the particles in high quantities. He drowned in the mucous with which his body trying to flush it out. It'd be like trying to run a marathon with your hands and feet tied together.

A little common sense and rudimentary medical care and Jim Willson might still be with us.

That's what I recommend, common sense and if you make yourself sick see a doctor, ANY doc in a box could've saved Mr. Willson. Don't be that kind of stubborn! There's just no reason to panic or go to extreme measures to avoid it. If you're allergic to zinc oxide you'd know, you'd probably be in intensive care or dead.

I expect the zinc zmoke BAD!!:o crowd will keep at me for a while . . . AGAIN and disregard my intent. 

Frosty The Lucky.

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Frosty said:

Should I let it go at that or do I get to start making snide remarks? :rolleyes:

Snide away Brother :rolleyes:

Well, Mrs. Taylor just checked an armpit for me (had to convince her that it was for a good cause), so at least I am good on that front.

Frosty, I am averse to ANY exposure to fumes in general, but the air currents behave a tad differently down here than where you are at the North Pole. If you Google Map 'Viejas Reservation', you might visualize some very interesting airflow patterns.

I consider myself to be your #1 NARB enthusiast, so I cut to the salient point of posting the image:  I well know the acerbic 'wit' of this salty crew.  I expected to get some of what this gang is capable of dishing out. While I am told that my armpits smell sweet, I have exposed my intellectual B.O. for the public good.  :ph34r:

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We all have our truths, and the other guy has his. THE truth about any matter can take a lot of time and close attention just to grow near to. It is always worth the search though :)

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14 hours ago, Anachronist58 said:

Snide away Brother :rolleyes:

Take all the fun right out of that option why don't you. Well played sir. :)

I used to live in the Simi Valley and know how odd the wind can be. Dead calm one second, +50 the next. Didn't worry about smoke back then, if it was getting to you, go outside have a cigarette and get some fresh air. Just like the Marlboro man don't you know.

I tend to over react to the zinc smoke panic thing. A couple guys at work actually tried starting a petition to have all the galvanized plumbing removed from the building because it's so toxic. Is there an official "name" for the chicken little panic at everything folks?

Heck, I have a 3M Whitecap II supplied air welding helmet for serious smoke and fume conditions. I don't take this stuff lightly at all.

Frosty The Lucky.

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Don't take heavy metals lightly.

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Ah another weighty comment. 

Frosty The Lucky.

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Sorry Frosty,

The Marlboro man, of many years duration, 

died of lung cancer.

Pity that he was so virile, and attractive. (my mom's and sister's opinion).

SLAG.

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8 hours ago, SLAG said:

The Marlboro man, of many years duration, 

died of lung cancer.

Pity that he was so virile, and attractive. (my mom's and sister's opinion).

Ayup. Granny Clampet said, "Winston tastes good like a cigarette had aughter." But there wasn't any pointed irony using that one.

I like the Smith safety posters too. The fatalgram posters were(are?) maybe more effective but nobody stands around making jokes when a new one went up.

Frosty The Lucky.

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Just for kicks and giggles, I wanted to see if my 1/8" nozzled NARB would backfire if I turned it down to nothing.  It didn't, but just before that I got this stable propane flame that just plain looks cool!

 

IMG_7489.JPG

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Your forge has a happy face on, Dan. :)

Frosty The Lucky.

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Thanks.  And very stable, the flame just sits there, a half sphere wavering with the slight breezes.  

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