671jungle Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 On 1/24/2019 at 11:28 PM, 671jungle said: Perhaps lengthen the choke slots (2"x3/8")? I remember reading anywhere past 2" length is waste. i forgot to mention this is the slot length now. looking at commercial ribbons and noticed a trumpet-like flare leading to the outlets im wondering if this helps even things out. I have also noticed trumpet-like intakes on venturis. Are these the most effecient ways to draw and distribute air? If so, a complete system would look like an elongated hourglass. Any thoughts on this? I was thinking of a stream with a leaf floating. As the leaf reaches a narrow choking point it speeds up and shoots through the narrow then slows as the opening widens. If I were to put a dam with a set # of holes some point after the narrow would this be the same way a NARB works? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted January 26, 2019 Author Share Posted January 26, 2019 20 hours ago, 671jungle said: The lift is happening when the jet is around 1/4" down the throat. Stabilizes around an 1" down the throat but is very candle-like and rich. When you say down the throat are you talking about putting the jet orifice past the air intake ports? Are you taking notes? did you note that the farther you inserted the orifice the more rich your already WAY too rich flame got? I know this isn't my burner and Mike uses a different strategy to tune but holy MOLY, PULL THE JET BACK! The farther the jet is from the throat the more air it will entrain. In the future when you're trouble shooting anything, make ONE change at a time and test. Pay attention to the results. If it makes things worse do NOT DO IT MORE! Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 The tip end should rest 1/4" to 3/8" short of the forward end of the air openings for peak performance, depending on the individual characteristics of the burner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Rotblatt Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 On 1/21/2019 at 11:05 AM, Frosty said: I've never tried measuring the temp between inner and outer layers of Kaowool so I don't know if you could replace the outer layer with perlite. I'd be surprised if it wouldn't work, I don't think temps exceed 2,000 f. after the first inch. FYI: I only use 1" of wool in my forge builds. The exterior of the forge gets to about 300F or so. So between two layers of insulation it might get a bit hotter since the heat is being held in rather then radiated, but I'm sure it's never going to get up to 2000F. BTW, that's with forging temps inside. Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 I wouldn't use Perlite outside of a single layer of ceramic fiber; I would want a full two inches of fiber, and I would also want a re-emissive finish coat, or a 1/2" thick layer of Kast-O-lite 30 as a hot-face on the flame side of the fiber insulation too. I have seen ceramic fiber turn solid yellow hot over time, more than once; once it does, the Perlite layer would be melting fast. Better safe than sorry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Rotblatt Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 Curious, and respectfully questioning present accepted thought. Why does everybody insist on 2" of ceramic fiber? I only use 1" and have made forges for 40 years. I worked out the heat loss recently for the surface area of the shell of my forge (standard helium tank shell), and the numbers are in the 100's, not even the 1000's. Since these burners are putting out 100,000+ btu's the loss is really negligible...maybe 1%. As I see it, the two factors that play the largest part in how hot the forge gets is first interior size and how well the burners work, and second the size of door openings. Even then, I made a forge that was too big a couple of years ago with expectations that I might have to make odd shaped stuff for Forged and Fire (about an 11" diameter interior 24" long), it had 3 Reil burners and still with only 2 burning it got to forging heat. I just had to run it at 15 lbs - it used a LOTof gas. Only used the 3rd burner only to heat treat long blades. I've made forges with the burner pointing straight down, and horizontally up high so the flame swirls...no difference except how even the heat is in the forge. All got to forging heat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted January 27, 2019 Author Share Posted January 27, 2019 Curious and respectfully? My goodness, we rarely see that level of manners around here. We don't flame folks for asking direct questions or disagreeing. The whole curmudgeon thing is more hype though we have been known to be snappy with the truly . . . Nevermind. My early forges once I discovered how well double lining them worked were 1" of 8 lb. Kaowool with an inner liner of 3/4" of Pyramid Super air set, for it's invulnerability to caustics. Borax at welding temps being very caustic you need something besides a silicate bonded refractory. Phosphate seemed to be the most bullet proof though calcites seem to the the current THING. The shells tended to run in the 200-300 f. range at welding temps and I used to make toasted ham and cheese sandwiches and coffee on top. The next one I made the size of the shell I'd scrounged said the volume would require 2 burners but if I added another inch of Kaowool it'd come in around 350 ci. and still be plenty of room so that's what I made. Turned out I could touch the shell for a bit and I didn't need to run as much psi to reach my temps. Kaowool is extra cheap when I need some cut off a roll and usually free if it's from their trimmings. I have trouble stopping by without leaving with several trash bags full of Kaowool from their dumpster or cutting table. My forges won't melt my plastic sippy cup within about 4" and the upgrade is too cheap to ignore. That's how I came to 2" of blanket and the reason I still do it that way. Economics and effectiveness, it also makes it easier to replace the inner layer of blanket when it finally wears out. Changing the layer against the shell is more work, not a lot but enough for me to note and avoid. We're on the same page. A well tuned 3/4" burner will bring 300-350 Ci to welding temperature provided it's not an elongated space. Too large openings are a killer and unless you run gun burners you can't close them. Mike has convinced me that thermal baffles spaced a bit out from the openings work nearly as well as closing them off. I'd drop some PSI # for comparison but that'd be dishonest, I never took notes about my old forges and the two that really worked were WAY over gunned. I was running a 400 ci forge under a 1" NA burner the first T that worked well. It was a seriously hot forge though 2x the fuel hog it needed to be. My other forges of the time were experimentals looking for: size, shape, etc. I liked and I ended up building my WAY over designed shop forge. 18" square, four, 3/4" Ts and a lid on a jack. I made side and partition walls with IFB and configured it as I needed. It was a neat forge and still works well, especially with the Morgan thermal ceramics K-26 IFBs, they don't die in the excessive heat of a forge and don't mind the rapid thermal cycling we put them through. The problem is it's just WAY more than I need, I've only fired all the burners a couple times since initial testing. I usually work in one quarter under 1 burner, next is opening the next section for long stock. Most recently I over designed a moderately too large forge under my first pair of ribbon burners. It works OK but I'm not so happy. The next one is on the drawing board but has to wait till next summer so refractories and kiln washes will set properly. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Rotblatt Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 Thanks for the input Frosty. And I say that without a hint of curiosity and with only the most complete disrespect. I guess at best, the savings from and extra 1" of wool is just a guesstimate based on observation and gut, since one would have to make two identical forges, one with 2" and one with 1" and run them with the same burners to see if there is any difference. Otherwise we are comparing apples and oranges. It's obvious that more insulation will cause less heat loss, but how much that will effect internal temperature or economy is not known. My calculations show that it is a fraction of 1%....but in real life??? Who knows? I agree with you, if you have the room in the shell you are using, might as well put in 2" of wool. For the extra $5-10 it's worth it if only to make the forge area more comfortable. I guess one of the things I'm reacting to is reading newbies posts about building their first forge and being literally fearful that their forge will not get up to heat unless they have 2" of wool while I've been welding for 40 years with 1" (but small forges). If their forge doesn't reach forging temps, they think it's insulation when it's most likely burner to forge size ratio or a bad running burner, or some other issue. Just my 2 cents... Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted January 30, 2019 Author Share Posted January 30, 2019 My opinion of what works best is pretty subjective in my part based on experience. I'm a lot less interested in BTU/hr than absolute temperature. As you say closing the doors makes up for a lot of BTUs but if the flame won't reach 2,500+/- f. it doesn't do it for me. Sure I can weld at lower temps but it's more work and I'm basically a lazy guy, don't want to put more work into a thing than necessary. In truth a burner that won't make steel sparkle gets tuned till it will or I take it apart to see what went wrong. The first time I watched someone weld in a propane forge it was about 10" of 10" dia. steel pipe with about 3/4" of Mizzou, no blanket or doors. The flux was the old Sureweld if memory serves and they were getting good welds at low orange heat. They got into a contest making bar shoes. New folk to any craft are always fretting about obtaining the best gear, we're always looking to hedge our bets when we don't know what we're really getting into. About the same as watching a cat sneak up on it's reflection for the first time. Not sure? Go slow and take a big stick. I don't fault a thing you say, it's good to have another experienced person active here. The more who speak up the more likely new folk will get off to a good start without building super insulated forges big enough to park a Metro in. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Rotblatt Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 On 1/29/2019 at 4:03 PM, Frosty said: My opinion of what works best is pretty subjective in my part based on experience. From what I've read from you, given you're level of curiosity, research, and the way you go about using proper scientific methods of experimentation, I would say that your opinion is probably pretty darn good! I think I got lucky. I got turned on to ceramic blanket vey early in the game, no pipes covered in a bit of Mizzou. I was taking some glass blowing classes around '81 or '82, and built my first forges and furnaces based around glory holes. My first forge was tiny...about 8" long inside (one light insulating brick), with 2" ceramic fiber, on one wall and the light k26 brick for the rest. It was shaped in a quarter circle - the burners high on a flat vertical wall the flame facing the curved quarter circle wall covered in ceramic fiber. Flat K26 floor. I think about 300 cu in. Open 4x5 doors on either side, but it had two NC Tool company burners, so it hit welding temps easily. We should migrate this discussion to Forges 101... In summary to what we've been talking about - BUILD YOUR FIRST FORGE SMALL! 250-300 CU IN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 1, 2019 Author Share Posted February 1, 2019 Oh geeze now you're trying to make me blush! I'm lucky my mind works that way and I have a near eidetic memory for the written word. Keeping it in order not so much, I can't do chapter and verse. I'm also a likable BSer so folks tell me stuff and I listen, insatiably curious. When I wanted to build my first forge I called around till I found a local place that carried refractory though not Mizzou. The mizzou lined pipe was the only thing I knew of. Ran across E. J. Bartell, recently bought by Distribution International. I got to talking to the guys in the office and they clued me to Kaowool and Pyramid Super and I built my first forge. I almost got the gun burner built and running when a coffee shop buddy, Cruz, gave me a box of literature regarding NA induction devices. Cruz was, probably still is, always looking for application patent ideas to sell back to the patent holder. He wanted to make a tire inflater with a jet ejector inducer and air can. No way a transparent air mover will work against a tire's worth of back pressure with that little bit of primary pressure. I did convince him to figure out a way to inflate tires directly from canned air though I don't think he made the proposals before someone else did. Anyway, Jet ejectors being so much stronger inducers than linear inducers I didn't have to make them nearly so perfect to produce burners that performed more effectively. Works better, easier to make, win win. It wasn't till the internet went public that I made contact with other blacksmiths and the T burner was still kicking around my head. I met Ron Reil on Theforge.list and within a week or so and we were off and running. I may have a knack for scientific method, logic and critical thinking but I'm really lucky. Opportunity falls in my lap regularly I can't count how many times it's happened, surviving the tree is another lucky stroke. Mostly when I opine I try to be honest about it. If It's just opinion I say, I THINK, etc. etc. If I say, "This IS," it's because to the best of my knowledge it IS that way. I'm a heck of a story teller and went through way too much of my life trying to impress people and being less than honest about it. Now I find people actually believe I'm one of the guys who Knows. I owe it to them to do my best to be so. Now instead of being worried about people finding me out I cherish folk who show me my mistakes. The old NC burners were excellent, not so much now though. Were yours the old style, trumpet shaped intake to a narrow venturi shaped throat then a long taper to the outlet and the jet centered in the choke plate as far back from the throat as reasonably possible? Those babies were De BOMB. Where are you in LA? I grew up in Sylmar, we moved to Simi Valley 11 days after the 71 quake. Dad and I commuted to Burbank to work till I moved to Alaska in 72. I was going to be a pipeline boomer but discovered I didn't have the right skills so I got a respectable job instead. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Rotblatt Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 (edited) Not trying to make you blush...but what the xxxx! I taught middle school science for a number of years, scientific method was high on my list. It's rare these days to see someone using it (what the hell are they teaching kids now!), and I really appreciate it. Besides, you were one of the guys talking with Ron and Mikey and those folks back in the old days when these burners where being developed. The NC burners I not as you've described, they look pretty much the same as the ones they are selling now. A few years after I purchased them they stopped selling the burners by themselves, I guess they didn't want the liability of someone blowing themselves up with some home made monstrosity. I graduated from the old NC burners and I started making my own burners after finding Ron Reils site back in the early internet days...I've basically been using Ron's burners up to a few months ago when I built a new forge with a gun type ribbon burner (you've seen the posts). I've also built Mikeys burners and a few gun burners as well, but Ron's worked. But I do like to play and experiment. Since my ribbon burner takes so little pressure (I have a 50cfm fan closed down 3/4-7/8 or the way), I'm kind of thinking I want to try a NA ribbon burner with a DIY hybrid burner I've been playing with and see how it goes. Should be easy to control, I like to forge weld in a reducing atmosphere without flux. I made the forge so the burner is held with brackets and bolts and will be easy to swap out. I'm in Topanga in the hills between Woodland Hills and the coast. I was just up to Simi the other day at a birthday party. Lived a few other places, but my family is here including my 94 y.o. mother - it's my turn to make sure she feels taken care of. Never been to Alaska, but it's on my bucket list. I hear it's beautiful there! (see...I worked in talk about NA ribbon burners so as to not hijack the thread!) Edited February 1, 2019 by Mod34 Edited for inappropriate language Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 2, 2019 Author Share Posted February 2, 2019 Ah, jr. high they broke us in on "The New Math" in jr. high. Bunch of us graduated with a deep understanding of all kinds of theories including the history and arbitrary nature of math. Learning to do math was sooooo old news! Mother was really quick and a master of deduction and logic. Try winning an argument with her some time. We used to play running puns, especially on family drives. I don't try to employ logic, trying gets in my way, I just have this thing about poking holes in ideas, my own especially. Probably why I'm basically law abiding and pretty honest, I can imagine too many ways to get caught. What, Are they teaching kids now? I've tried teaching a couple youngsters, high school grads both who, no fooling, couldn't figure the area of a square and didn't know what volume meant. I recommended Math for Dummies and get back when they could tell me the volume of their proposed forge in cubic inches. They decided blacksmithing was too hard. Plumbing part burners work, been around since the Civil war but the ones designed to do it right work so much better. It can't be that much cheaper to screw plumbing together than stamp and crimp can it? I take it you've read how I determined outlet number and size in this thread so I won't repeat how I made the test model. Heck multiple outlet burners are THE norm for glory holes. Checking glass sites is how I confirmed NA ribbon burners could be made, all I needed do was winkle out the details. Topanga, pretty country if it's not burning, no joke. I was a local boy, watched the hills burning around us more than once. Were you there when the gas well blew out turning into a 400' tall candle on the S.W side of the San Fernando Valley? We lived on the N.W. side and could read by the light. We stood in the front yard and watched when Red Adair put it out with nitroglycerin. We HAD to watch, who in their right mind thought they could put out a gas fire with nitroglycerin? Poppycock is what I say! Dad said, "See? knew it wouldn't work," when it lit back up about 20 seconds after the first shot. They spent the next day or so dragging the red HOT stuff away from the well so it wouldn't do that again. Next shot and it was out, capped and okey dokey in short order. TV coverage was excellent, groovy show. I wanted to buy one of the melted trucks for yard art. Dad said no. Mother just rolled her eyes and let Dad take the heat. Nicely done wandering back to ribbon burners. It's normal for topics to wander off in unknown directions rarely to return though it's usually the new member who complains about it rather than participate and steer it back. If you don't mind posting WIP pics as you make your burners we'll all appreciate having someone else's ideas to copy. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 17 hours ago, D.Rotblatt said: Not trying to make you blush...but what the xxxx! I taught middle school science for a number of years, scientific method was high on my list. It's rare these days to see someone using it (what the hell are they teaching kids now!), and I really appreciate it. Besides, you were one of the guys talking with Ron and Mikey and those folks back in the old days when these burners where being developed. Confession time: I am the least scientific of this whole lot, having never trusted math beyond what I could envision. Yes, loads of people whip out formulas that work, despite their having no clue why, but that path always made me itch where I can't scratch. Knowing is more than having a pat answer. On the other hand, I want that answer too; just never was satisfied to run beyond where I felt confident that I understood what I "knew." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 2, 2019 Author Share Posted February 2, 2019 Least scientific? The level of math I use approaches that of a carpet layer figuring out how much to cut off the roll. I leave a conservative margin too. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Rotblatt Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 I got "new math" too....totally messed me up. Hated it! It wasn't until later I learned to enjoy math...until I got to calculus Sounds like your house was a good one for rational thinking and problem solving and it's in your blood. 20 hours ago, Frosty said: I take it you've read how I determined outlet number and size in this thread so I won't repeat how I made the test model. Heck multiple outlet burners are THE norm for glory holes. Yes. I read all of that. As it turned out, my burner has 19 holes, so I taped a reil burner to the input and got a nice flame. I really want control over oxidizing/reducing atmospheres, so a Mikey or hybrid style burner should be the ticket. I'll take pics as I build it. I've got some stainless butt weld reducer fittings to play with and some 1.25 pipe I can forge down to a reducer. We'll see. Should be fun. Don't remember the gas explosion in SF valley, but vaguely remember the Bel Air fire. Not fun when this area burns. I was part of the evacuation a couple of months ago. Was wild and scary driving out to the valley and looking up towards NW and seeing the whole north end of the valley on fire. Looked like it was from Moorpark all the way to the 405 frwy, and that was only the second day. My son and I were nomads for the week living at friends and families houses. Fortunately, the fire didn't come into Topanga this time like it did in '93. 19 hours ago, Mikey98118 said: Confession time: I am the least scientific of this whole lot, having never trusted math beyond what I could envision. Mikey, a scientific approach to problem solving has nothing to do with math, it's about observation and an approaching problems systematically. Altering one variable at a time and recording the results. The only time math gets into it is statistically analyzing the data....and that can get really sticky. For our purposes, we just want to know what works better. It's obvious that your approach works quite well. OH...Admin; sorry for the "what the xxx" comment, didn't even think of it as a banned word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 The amount (too much or too small) of forward air pressure into a burner's flame retention nozzle, or multiple port burner head is a very big deal, even though the amount needed is minor. It seems that looking back how much is the right amount in a given burner design is fairly clear, but never is at the time. Eventually, just what NA burner design gives just the right amount of air pressure to get a perfect flame out of exactly the right design of burner head may become clear too--or not. but being one to like a little maneuvering room, I'm inclined to look at fans for the answer. However, fans on the only commercial burner design, seems way too large. I have the suspicion that small (plastic) squirrel cage fans, mated to motor control, will end up winning first prize. Ad since such small fans can be run from quite portable 12V batteries that a forge can be run for hours on a job site, the electic cord controversy gets an end run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 3, 2019 Author Share Posted February 3, 2019 2 hours ago, Mikey98118 said: Ad since such small fans can be run from quite portable 12V batteries that a forge can be run for hours on a job site, the electic cord controversy gets an end run. Zip tie the cord to the propane hose and consolidate the two. Heck put the battery, in an appropriate battery box to avoid possible shorts and sparks, on the cart with the propane tank. Next objection? Hmmmmm? NARB is rock solid stable, stop to stop on my 0-20lb. regulator. Running below around 3 psi. and the burner block gets too hot and it burns back. It's one of the things that really surprised me. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 11 hours ago, Frosty said: ARB is rock solid stable, stop to stop on my 0-20lb. regulator. Running below around 3 psi. and the burner block gets too hot and it burns back. Burn-back is a separate issue, which must either be accommodated or solved by you guys; perhaps a water jacket? Nor do I think that NARBs aren't working out very well already But...my mind will always long to see perfect flames coming from any burner. It is not a question of what more is needed, nor what is practical, but a habit of thought; perhaps mania might be a better word... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 3, 2019 Author Share Posted February 3, 2019 I've only made the two NARBS you know and I like my burners running a LITTLE rich. I have another forge design in mind but that's for next summer when it's warm enough to work with refractories. When I make my next NARBs I'll play with a couple heat shield ideas I've been kicking around. First and simplest thought is to put a high zirconia layer, not a wash, maybe 1/4" or better, facing the forge chamber. A SLIGHT flare at the outlet in the Z layer so it doesn't matter much if it burns back a little and I might be able to run it at really low psi. Another thought, the crazy un-simple and expensive thought is dead air space(s?). A flame face Z layer backed by a monel or inconel reflector, dead air and another inconel or monel reflector backed by another Z layer. I'd have to research which metal will best retain a mirror finish, availability and price. rocket engine metals are NOT cheap. Then comes the inescapable bit, the outlets MUST be channels that extend to the flame face and they WILL conduct heat. Hopefully being relatively thin the FAM flow will keep them cool. Those are my two best candidates for might probably work. One simple one crazy involved expensive. Real time control of air fuel mix is easy; design the inducer to run a little lean and put a choke on it. I don't buy THAT for a reason to put a fan on a NA burner. The fuel air ratio is just tooo easy to control. What are you really thinking about here Mike, Hmmmmm? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
671jungle Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 So far: 40 coffee stirrer holes at about one 1psi starts to lift around 5. I'm hoping the back pressure of the forge will keep it steady. Probably not. I'm thinking 9 more holes will keep it steady throughout the psi ranges. The jet tip is about a 1/4" past the intake. I've played a bit with it's position, and this is the most stable and lean I could get it. I think refining the intake and increasing output ports will get it closer. Any thoughts on this? Much appreciated! Also the history in the stories y'all share are good reading. i forgot to mention this is a 1/2" Mikey ejector. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another FrankenBurner Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 An idea I had been rolling around to prevent blow back, use more smaller ports. It's less convenient to make but it would provide more cooling to the block. The block could also be shorter to maintain laminar flow which would mean less mass to cool. I have seen commercial NARBs which purposefully run the block hot for infrared heat transfer. They run a large orifice at a little over 1/10 psi through a stamped venturi without blow back. All of the commercial versions which I have dealt with have lots of very small ports. Here is a picture of the plate in one of them, it is 1/2 inch thick: I don't know if what I am thinking is viable so I wasn't going to mention it until I had played with it a bit but you all were talking about plenum pops. I also don't know how more smaller holes vs less larger holes reacts to pressure changes etc. It seems as much a balancing act as the NA burner driving it. My other thought was to 3D print a mold for the block which could add tapers or steps at the outlet to act as nozzles on each port. A question for Frosty, I thought that the purpose of zircon was to absorb energy, become very hot, and radiate energy. If I have that right, wouldn't adding it to the face of the block cause the block to heat more because it has a hotter face? Or did I misunderstand the function of zircon and it would somehow provide a shield in this case? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 3, 2019 Author Share Posted February 3, 2019 44 minutes ago, 671jungle said: The jet tip is about a 1/4" past the intake. The flame is blowing off the block because it's burninng rich. Mike and I have both told you the problem is your jet is IN THE MIXING TUBE. We've both told you to pull it back OUT, Mike even gave you specific distances. It wn't matter how many outlets you put in it, it's burning rich. 20 minutes ago, Another FrankenBurner said: A question for Frosty, I thought that the purpose of zircon was to absorb energy, become very hot, and radiate energy. If I have that right, wouldn't adding it to the face of the block cause the block to heat more because it has a hotter face? Or did I misunderstand the function of zircon and it would somehow provide a shield in this case? Good question. Zirconia absorbs and reradiates heat because it is a poor conducter. Like anything energy takes the path of least resistance so zirconia tends to radiate more towards the least resistance, open space, conducting heat through direct contact isn't it's forte. I don't know how close to the way it "really" works but that's my understanding and why I think physically backing it against a high temp reflector might make a difference significant enough to be worth the effort. Yes, I looked at commercial multiple outlet burners long and hard before making test burners. The problem being making such thin castings in a hobby shop setting. They aren't THAT expensive to just buy. I like to tinker though. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another FrankenBurner Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 That clears it up. I did not understand how zircon worked, just what it did for us. Understanding that it is a poor conductor explains the how. Thank you sir. I'll have to pick up a bag of zircon flour so I can play with it. Which reminds me, I was at the local Potter's Center, chatting them up about all this kind of stuff and he gave me an "ITC replacement formula" they had. He didn't know where the recipe came from. By weight: 2 parts Alumina Hydrate 2 parts 35 mesh Kyanite 2 parts Zirconium (Zircopax, Opex) 1 part Vee gum T or Bentonite Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
671jungle Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 1 minute ago, Frosty said: the problem is your jet is IN THE MIXING TUBE. Thank you Frosty. I have pulled it out to almost the very end (furthest away from mixing tube). The flame leans out but is not stable. I think refining my intake will help induce more air, they are knife edged but could be smoother. just realized the mix tube is over length. 8", should probably be 4 1/2" ish? I must have some kind of mental block. Im really trying to understand the "hows" and "whys". Thanks for the input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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