Frosty Posted February 15, 2019 Author Share Posted February 15, 2019 One of your problems is you're trying to get burners to operate at A psi reading. The only real use for psi gages is so you can duplicate a temperature without having to eyeball it every time. The ONLY issue that's worthwhile to correct is the flame's chemistry. NEUTRAL. There is only ONE right psi. the psi it operates at properly. Period. I really like your multiple outlet burner it's a nice build. But in the pic you post it's burning rich you have the air intake maybe 75% choked off with your thumb. For now, ignore everything but how that flame looks in the picture and repeat after me. THAT'S burning TOO RICH. Rich means not enough air for the amount of fuel. The solution for that problem is either, more air OR less fuel. Changing psi changes fuel AND air at the same rate. it can NOT effectively alter the fuel air ratio. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
671jungle Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 19 hours ago, Frosty said: The solution for that problem is either, more air OR less fuel. Changing psi changes fuel AND air at the same rate. it can NOT effectively alter the fuel air ratio. Thank you for the input Frosty, the help is much appreciated. I messed with it a bit more and got this. Choke is open all the way, gas jet is about center point looking into the air inlet and is at 12ish psi. Any lower than 10psi backfires. I still have not refined all the inner surfaces of the unit which may also be a part of some issue. the flame seems to be different from the last despite the pictures being taken at different times of day. tricky to get it to behave, but it stabled out in these pictures. I hope im making some progress. Its definitely a lot louder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
671jungle Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 On 2/9/2019 at 6:03 PM, Mikey98118 said: I'm a big fan of shortcuts through purchased parts. Morse Taper. With some machining/grinding it could be of interest. They come in different sizes and has that taper to the end but cant tell if its the same for the ID. never seen one before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 16, 2019 Author Share Posted February 16, 2019 That looks a little better. Still a Bit rich but getting closer. Forget about FAM ratio a minute and take a look at the flames and think about what you see. Get back with your observations. I'm thinking your plenum is maybe small and back pressure is causing back fire issues. It shouldn't require that much psi to operate. Don't get stuck on psi. readings, it isn't the issue but it is a symptom. Morse tapers come in different ratios. Interesting idea, thanks. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HojPoj Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 If memory serves, Morse taper is only in the 1.5 to 3 degree range, by the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 16, 2019 Author Share Posted February 16, 2019 33 minutes ago, HojPoj said: If memory serves, Morse taper is only in the 1.5 to 3 degree range, by the way. Thanks, I wasn't going to look it up but having the numbers at hand is a good thing. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 Finally got my forge set up last night for a curing test burn. Note that the T-burner runs vertically down, so the intake is as far from the exhaust as possible. I’ve been getting white smoke coming out of the T after I shut the burner down. I suspect there’s still some bits of crayon inside the plenum that will eventually burn out. And here’s the face of the burner, running about 2 psi. Ended up going up to about 5, but didn’t want to get too hot before the forge’s refractory was properly cured. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 17, 2019 Author Share Posted February 17, 2019 Looks really good. That's an ideal way to mount the T inducer, no need to mess with all the fittings to protect the rubber hose. Is that really smoke or steam? I expect steam and crayon residue smoking makes sense, mine did some interesting little things the first couple firing I wouldn't worry. Flames look good too. I like it John, can't wait to see it at melt the distracted smith's project temps. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 I like the look of those flames! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 Here are the flames at ~15psi. There was much less of the smoke/vapor around the burner, and none when I shut the burner off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 These flames do not indicate anything wrong with the burner; they indicate that the burner is simply being run on way too high a gas [ressure. If you want to run the these burners hard try 4 PSI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 Interesting. I shall keep that in mind next time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou L Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 (edited) I, too, love the mounting you chose for the burner. It’s ideal but seriously reduces portability. Now I have to decide how portable I want my forge to be before I move forward. I’m just now finding the time to start working on mine again. I’ve never run mine past 10psi and I don’t imagine I will have to. Does yours give a little pop and backfire when you shut off the gas? Edited February 18, 2019 by Mod34 Rather egregious typo fixed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 18, 2019 Author Share Posted February 18, 2019 I've given this orientation a lot of thought Lou and all you really need do is put longer legs on the forge and an elbow between the hose and the burner fitting so the hose can lay flat. It'll still be a few inches below the forge body and clear of heat. Mine have always popped when I shut them off, as pressure drops the FAM flow slows below the rate of propagation and it burns back for a final little pop. This wouldn't be a factor with gun burners because the blower will keep the velocity up when you shut off the gas. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 6 hours ago, Lou L said: Does yours give a little pop and backfire when you shut off the gas? Yes. Frosty’s explanation makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 For interest’s sake, here’s the burner removed from the forge. Interesting difference between the parts that have been exposed to the high heat and those that haven’t. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
671jungle Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 Burner with rich flame that wont stick no matter placement of jet had 40 holes a 1/2" unrefined intake and 4" long mix tube with a .025 mig tip. Aside from increasing the intake slot width and smoothing the flow path I have also decided to reduce the orifice to .020 with a dispensing needle interference fitted into another .025 mig tip (I plan on tapering) and cleaned up with tiny drills as well as increasing the outlets to 72. I remember reading Mikey's post about smaller orifices making hotter burners but this is the recommended size for a 3/8". Would it be too much of a drop? At work now, cant do anymore experimenting so I am asking and reading. I know this is kinda starting from scratch since I've changed so many variables. Also an experimental multi outlet with the bottom of a water bottle for a mold. The bottom of the bottle has interesting grooves and shapes (different brands have different shapes) that could possibly influence the flame. I have fitted it with 15 coffee stirrers and 1 larger soda straw in the center. the plenum is a 2" x 1" reducer. can any outlet be a N/A burner nozzle/nozzlettes? If so, then is it about fitting the right intake and mixer to the part? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 20, 2019 Author Share Posted February 20, 2019 I've got to say the second pic looks like the gnarliest brand party soda I've ever seen! Party because of all the people who must be drinking from the bottle. 50 minutes ago, 671jungle said: can any outlet be a N/A burner nozzle/nozzlettes? If so, then is it about fitting the right intake and mixer to the part? I'm not sure what you're asking in the first part. If you're wondering about attaching a NA inducer to a plenum and multi outlet burner block then I don't see why not. You will have to balance the inducer to the burner block of course. Getting the right # of outlets was the most important part and I went through a number of test blocks till I got one that worked. I think you're doing of a lot of work with higher a risk than I like. I think I'd dig out a hole saw I could hose clamp a can that diameter to and drill stir stick sized holes in the board. Fast easy and cheap. Yes? The test blocks don't have to last more than a few seconds to tell if they're close enough to work. If you need more time then soak the wood burner block is a saturated solution of borax in water and the block will take a little more time to start burning. BTW, that'd be called a "Button" burner by the glassy folk. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howling dog forge Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 When casting the ribbon burner is there an advantage to using Mizzou over , perhaps, Kastolite 30?? It would seem most use the Mizzou but having never used it I have no point of reference for comparison. The Kastolite does seem a bit grainy, course and dry for casting, wondering if the other refractory would be a better choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 I used Kastolite because that’s what I had, but Latticino (to whom I defer in all matters refractory) has strong opinions in favor of Mizzou. I will leave it to him to explain why Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 21, 2019 Author Share Posted February 21, 2019 Mix the Kastolite to a consistency you can work with, the previous recommendations are for max strength industrial use, we don't need anything like that so wet enough to our is fine. Just don't get silly about it eh? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fowllife Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 So, seeing JHCC’s pictures makes me think mine is running a little rich. The dragons breath out of mine is much different. The top 2 picture were at 2-4psi which is were unusual run the third one was closer to 15 psi. I’ve played with my jet length a little with minimal change. I’m wondering if my mix tube or a touch too short since I didn’t use the thread protected and just welded the pipe stub to the burner. The last two are the burner outside the forge at first light up, and the forge without the front fire brick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howling dog forge Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 thank you Mr. Frosty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 21, 2019 Author Share Posted February 21, 2019 2 hours ago, Howling dog forge said: thank you Mr. Frosty. Your welcome, my pleasure. 5 hours ago, Fowllife said: So, seeing JHCC’s pictures makes me think mine is running a little rich. Yes, it looks a little rich to me too. How far have you trimmed the mig tip back? Try sneaking up on the right length with a fine file or sand paper and don't forget to clean the burr with torch tip files. You're close now, don't get crazy and use a saw or something. She wants to be kissed and sweet talked into behaving. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fowllife Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 2 hours ago, Frosty said: Your welcome, my pleasure. Yes, it looks a little rich to me too. How far have you trimmed the mig tip back? Well, from what I remember just a touch over an 1/8." Since I threaded the MIG tip into an 1/8" pipe nipple I was able to back it out a little to increase the air gap and didn't notice much difference. When I get a chance to get back out in that shop I plan on trying a shorter tip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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