jdawgnc Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 So first off let me say how much I appreciate this forum. I'm very much a newbie smith, but no stranger to fabrication and metalwork. That said I am getting ready to dive head first into this fun little rabbit hole. I'm in the process of laying out and building a new outdoor workspace for the forge and such but I wanted to get some input from you knowledgeable oldsters... My space is limited as are the funds. What I do have is access to all manner of kegs, bottles, racks, 55gal drums, and all the various parts to build a shell. I even have a big pile of nice hard fire bricks that are in good shape. I can easily weld the frame, and there are some really great plans on here and elsewhere. I've even got the skill and ability to plumb gas lines. My question is should I go propane or coal if I'm only going to have ONE forge. My only source of coal is about a 2 hour round trip. I do have a truck I can haul it in, but storage and such are a factor. I can get a propane tank filled right down the street... Primarily the stuff I'm going to be working will be fairly small, but I don't like the idea of being so limited like one of the coffee can style forges since I do "artsy" stuff that is often larger or at least more cumbersome. I can see the appeal of a nicer large coal guy and a little can forge for quick small stuff but I am REALLY space limited and that would require both propane and coal storage... I'm just trying to find that happy medium of space and fuel consumption. I realize a lot of that will be determined by what I'm doing on any given day, but you can fit a bigger chunk of metal on an open coal fire than in a closed box. Also building a gas forge using my hard fire bricks will make it a total gas hog... Meaning my up front costs will be much higher due to refractory materials and extra insulation. I know you can make your own refractory, but as I've got no knowledge there I'm reluctant. I'm also of the "you build it once, correctly" school of thought, so don't want to deal with it all cracking up after a year or two of use. If I'm going to go gas I'll spend the extra money to get the good stuff, but that will have to come out of something else I really want... Although the wife would be pretty happy if I used those bricks for a pizza oven instead... I'd also like to eventually do a bit of Al and copper smelting so there is the need to be able to put in a crucible (which also rules out anything coffee can sized). Again, coal versus propane... Which is better there? I'm taking a basic smithing course at the John C. Campbell folk school in May so I'm in no hurry to do anything big. I'm a firm believer in safety and learning from someone with experience, esp as far as the smelting and casting go. There is a great group of artists here I can tap into once I get that far, so don't worry about me pouring any hot metals about without some serious schooling beforehand. I've read all through the forum here and loved everyone's different setups. They are all quite inspirational. I'm sure once I take some classes my thoughts will change even more, but I just wanted to see what you all thought given what I'm working with. I thought a good debate might get some thoughts flowing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccustomknives Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Personally I'd much rather use coal, but it is hard to get. Propane is much easier to obtain and cleaner to use. If you are bladesmithing it would be preferable to use propane as you aren't going to accidentally burn up your work. It should be noted, if you can build both types of forges you should do it. You can use both to your advantage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 Coal is more work than propane, coal forges take longer to get to forging temp, the fire must be tended to, if you get distracted you can melt iron accidentally. If you want to practice forge welding, coal is totally worth it, although some gas forges get hot enough to weld, but not many homemade ones. All that said, I use both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikecopXXX Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 The folk school has coal and gas forges as well as oxy-acetylene and oxy-propane torches. Try them all and decide. After seeing it demo-ed at the school, i ended up buying an oxy-propane torch kit. Its working well for me, but i do small stuff so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdawgnc Posted February 8, 2014 Author Share Posted February 8, 2014 Yeah, I've got an oxy-acetylene set up and a mig/tig/stick rig as well, so any welding will be done electrically. No offense but a few amps speeds that process up greatly! I know which way I'm leaning here but would like to hear some more feedback from the masses before I commit and start building anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielpiotte Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 I have both myself and each has it's advantages and drawbacks. The biggest factors I have found in the equation are space and heat. Will a propane forge allow you the space to complete the project. For example, if your are doing a scroll, is the forge big enough to fit the scroll in after the first bend? Can you go back a tweak something if you need to. Can you put a bend in the middle of a bar if you have to and then put it back in to do the next bend? Even if you are "planning" on only doing small stuff you will need more space than you think even for that. Why limit yourself right out of the gate? Next up is heat. Can you build a small fire in a propane forge? Can you reduce the air flow and thus the fuel consumtion while you are forging between heats? Can you put a localized heat on your piece if you need to? You will get tired of heating something up only to pour water on it to cool a section of it down. Trust me on this. As to the old arguement about propane not burning up your work....If you are burning your work you should learn from the experience to pay closer attention to the fire. The advantages of propane are a reducing atmosphere for forge welding and the convienence of buying fuel at the local store. I disagree that homemade propane forges don't get to a welding heat. If you research well and use the right set up there is no reason you can't make a forge that will get to a welding heat. Just my two cents worth Daniel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 Do you have neighbors? If so go PROPANE! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdawgnc Posted February 8, 2014 Author Share Posted February 8, 2014 Do you have neighbors? If so go PROPANE! Lol, you know I didn't even think about the neighbors any more than how happy they will be to start seeing big piles of scrap metal in my back yard. I can imagine a smoky coal fire being the icing on the cake. I'm not too concerned about a gas forge getting up to welding temps. I know it's possible with good insulation and a proper burner. Speaking of... Have any of you done a side by side comparison between one of the pro burners and any of the homemade versions on here? I'm wondering just how much more efficient a professionally machined burner is over something cobbled together in a shop. Again, with proper tweaking I know they could theoretically produce the same flame but there is something to be said for being able to use something right out of the box that also pays for itself in gas savings... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borntoolate Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 I like the Coal forge. The gas forge I built is big and a bit loud. I like to be able to put the heat where I want with coal. If I want to heat a large area gas is great. Gas is also great for putting a larger item in and not having to turn the blower or worry to much about burning it up. Un coiling coil springs get done in gas. I straightened some leaf springs in gas. Generally I like the coal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian robertson Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 consider coke instead of coal, avoid that pesky neighbor problem and black boogers. with propane now selling between $4 and $5 per gal. coke is very economical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 Did you find any information in the section of forges that helped you with this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 With a gas forge you need a gas rig with a rose bud for localized heat, and for heating of shapes that won't fit in the forge. And as already said, sole tacky cooling your work is a pain in the butt. Coal is a bit of a learning curve, but cheaper to operate. (Propane, high pressure material gas is a bit cheaper) Coal also gives you more versitility. Don't get me wrong, as a farrier my day my driver is a gas forge, but my project forge is solid fuel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Frog Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 I like coal, but have to use my propane forge when at home around the neighbors. I don't like the dragon's breath, I don't like needing to have longer tongs, or different shaped tongs to reach into the gas forge opening. But I do like the even heat for some jobs, and it is very nice in that you're always working and not tending fire. While working on one piece, other pieces are coming to the desired temps in the forge. Rotate pieces in/out of the forge and the productivity for some work can increase quite a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan C Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 For those that have neighbors nearby what about using coke, anthracite coal or charcoal? Guess I'm fortunate that my neighbors aren't too close and tolerant of my hobby but currently I'm using a mixture of ~70% homemade charcoal, 30% anthracite or industrial coke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kayakersteve Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 The reference to welding was about forge welding - this is not something you can do with electricity. Forge welding is much different then mig,tig, stick which only welds the edges of material. Keep doing research. Forge welding may not seem like a need at present, but everyone who sticks with smithing eventually wants to try it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdawgnc Posted February 10, 2014 Author Share Posted February 10, 2014 I understand that forge welding is a much different join than electrical welding, as forge welding is done on a more molecular level throughout the piece. I'm sure something will come up eventually that I will want to try, but for the most part I am more interested in forming shapes and bends. As for the coal/coke question. There is only one place that is even close to local that sells coal and that's all they sell. The more I go round and round it seems I am just going to have to make two smaller forges, one gas and one coal. I'm still researching the various burners and wish I could find someone who has done a side by side comparison of a homemade version versus a manufactured one. Working in a lab myself, I understand the difficulty in getting good data from an experiment like that, but since there is just so much variance in each forge it would take someone literally swapping burners and doing a time/fuel use/and temp test. I've found several threads where people discuss this, but haven't found anything yet where someone actually has. If any of you know of one, please point it out... The search function here isn't exactly the greatest. So far I'm leaning towards one of the Zoeller type forges made out of an 5 gallon shop vac housing (basically a metal bucket, not aluminum) and a break drum style coal forge. Both should give me enough space to get started, and if I need something more I guess I'll just have to make friends with someone who has a larger forge nearby... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Jdawgnc, I use coal or coke most of the time because I mostly do hand forging where I move the metal into different proportions. If you are mainly wanting to bend or twist your material or have power hammers to move it, I'd use gas. If I was wanting to produce products, I'd have both, and I'd get induction. 2 hours away is a very short trip to get coal, and it would probably be the most economical of all those choices, initially, especially if you live by a coal mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbrandow Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Yeah, I've got an oxy-acetylene set up and a mig/tig/stick rig as well, so any welding will be done electrically. No offense but a few amps speeds that process up greatly! I know which way I'm leaning here but would like to hear some more feedback from the masses before I commit and start building anything. I'd like to quibble briefly with the notion that electric welding is necessarily faster than forge welding, particularly if its a piece you are currently working on in the forge. Forge welding: Preheat in forge (assuming it isn't already hot, which it typically is) Brush Apply flux Heat in forge Hammer together to get a tack weld Brush Apply flux Heat in forge Hammer together to complete the weld Electric welding: Grind to create clean surface (might need to cool it down first) Setup on welding table with vice(s) Turn on welder Take off glasses, put on helmet Weld Chip Brush Weld Take off helmet, put on glasses Turn off welder Grind to make it look somewhat presentable/Wrap with something so the weld isn't visible I'm not trying to start a long-winded argument here about the pros and cons of each, that's been done to death, but based on my admittedly limited experience, electric welding is quite often slower, not faster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Don't forget preheat and post heat for HC alloys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdawgnc Posted February 10, 2014 Author Share Posted February 10, 2014 It all depends on what you are welding and whether you are setting up from scratch. Admittedly I've never forge welded, just seen it done, but so far most of the things I am welding are far too large and/or complicated to do in a forge. I think both have their uses and disadvantages, but to do something like this in a forge would be impossible... I also make bottle trees out of 1/2 & 3/4" rolled bars... after a twist or two and a couple branches there's no way to fit a tree in a forge! I get what you are saying about forge welding though. I'm a firm believer that having the right tool for the job makes life infinitely easier, which is why I can see that I'm going to end up with as many forges as I have welders by the time this is all said and done. I'm gonna need a bigger garage! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdawgnc Posted February 10, 2014 Author Share Posted February 10, 2014 Oh, and with a good MIG ot TIG setup, the prep time is pretty small... No chipping or brushing, and if you're good you can lay down a pretty smooth bead so you don't have to do any cleaning up either. Especially if you have a mask that auto darkens! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thingmaker3 Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 They say the better one is with electric welding, the less good one need be with a grinder. I am an expert with the grinder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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