brianbrazealblacksmith

I could show you how to do that even thou I have not done that exact piece. I don't know how to post this on this site, but if you come by my shop at a time that I could show you , I'd welcome the opportunity to show you how I would approach it.

I know what you mean about the chicken or the egg! The shorter drift with the punch end is the egg. The complete set of tools is the chicken. I've only had to make the egg first when I fly somewhere and don't take my hammer making tools, so I'll make a hammer eye punch with the short drift with the punch on the end to punch a hole then grind the punch off then use it as a drift. The other drifts I have are longer, but they are not quite as you described. I don't usually take measurements so let's see of I can explain this. I like pill shaped eyes for my hammers and top tools because I like my handles shaped the same way. The handles I like parallel, but the eyes are tapered. The drift is tapered. It is a subtle taper. Say you make a drift out of 1 inch round stock. You will want to use some of the original 1" to make the largest eye you can get from that stock when you forge it oval, so you would taper from your original stock and then forge your desired pill shape from the base material to the end of your taper to have the same proportion of pill shape all the way down. If you were to slice it, every piece would look the same. They'd just be different sizes. On the very far end, though, you forge it thinner so that it will enter into the smallest cross section of the hole that you punched.

That's a lot of questions. The round swage should accommodate whatever size hammer you plan to forge. I have made different sizes for different size hammers, but my large one will do every hammer rounding hammer I would care to forge by hand and striker. I've done up to 2 1/2 inch stock, but don't recommend larger than 2 inch. My largest round swage has an inside diameter of about 2 3/4 inches. The top and bottom fullers for dividing the cheeks from the faces and drawing out the cheeks vary to whatever you like or choose, and the hump tools need to match. I usually suggest the 1 1/2 inch as a nice medium, not too big and not too small. I use thinner fullers now than the old one you have in the picture, because they move the metal easier. I still use the same radius though. They also need to fit in between the cheek area, not too long and not too short. I usually forge the top fuller out of 1 1/2 round 4140 3 1/2 inches long, and the bottom fuller out of an appropriate size to head in the 1 inch hardy hole of my striking anvil, so that would be at least 1 1/4 inch round stock. Nice sketch! For that drawing make your fullers and hump tools no wider than 16 mm and about 50 mm long. The humps can be longer because they are just for support as you drive your drift. The finished hammer length and width will depend on how much you upset as you forge the faces and then how much you forge the trough lines. It shortens and thickens when you forge the faces, and elongates when you forge the troughs. I prefer shorter hammers because I tilt my hammer a lot to forge, but some like longer hammers. You can make them how you choose. I've never measured the tongs, but the ones you have drawn will work. When done correctly, they will hold the smallest tool and the largest hammer comfortably as forged. I even use them to pick up the blocks of steel I use to make the striking anvils some times. The inside angle is 90 degrees by the way and I get that with my near and far edges of my anvil.

Thanks for posting this, Bruno C.!

Thanks for posting this, Bruno C.!

I have, a few times, but we don't know how to put them on the internet.

You make some pretty tools, Tubbe! We're going to be in Devon, England in August at the IBF. I hope you can show up and work with us.

FlyingXS, I don't know how to link any info or attach photos on this site, but several of the young smiths that I have worked with would be able to help explain everything, especially Alec Steele. Forged to finish is the most efficient way to make the tools. The "rounding fuller", which is actually a swage, only takes about fifteen minutes to make, and there are some videos out there of us making that tools. The fullers for making the cheeks and trough lines can be any size you choose as long as your hump tools are the same. There are two people in Australia that have been here and done the "Tools to make tools" curriculum that I've been teaching, that have all the tools and may be able to help you out.

All good responses, especially Forgemaster and JNewman. The fact is forging is the most efficient way to get what you want or need to do the job and will last or hold up better than any other technology that man has ever come up with. We are in the Steel Age!. We have gone to the moon and are going to go further because of forging technology. Forging is not a lost or dying art. It is the technology that has enabled man to do what he has done, and we have continued to improve and advance because it is the best way that gives the best result. It is a good day to be a blacksmith!

Dan P, I stated what I stated, and I've shown both steel and clay, and I have never attacked anyone's methods or tools! You, sir are incorrect. Maybe you should read all of this over. Now let's talk about better methods of skinning a cat. What did you all think bout all those examples?

Thanks, Alec S! I just reread all of this again. The pictures say all I was trying to say. There are no ill feelings on my part, especially towards any associations like someone mentioned earlier. I do believe it is a disservice to teach people this without understanding it's limitations. Look at what a commotion a simple question started. I wasn't attacking anyone's pokers. I think we should talk about the how's and why's of forge welding without getting defensive or offensive.

Paul17, not a single one of those welds are the one I specifically brought up in this conversation. I know some of them have been brought up on this thread. Your photos are very nice examples of different types of forge welding.

Very nice tongs, Gerald!

Alright, ForgeMan32! You should get with trinculo, like he suggested, also? You guys can help each other out. Josh, will do!

I did not say you can't make a poker that can fit your purposes! I said you cannot make a sound weld! Basher now put it in a vice and see if you can pry it apart, and then show us.

I stated what happens on the first page of this thread in post #7. It is just an observation, not an opinion.

Good illustration, JNewman! That's what I'd call a blob weld. I made one from 1/2 inch square the other day to show this, but in couldn't post it. I also did the other way like they teach, and then I did some other options. Thanks for the illustration , JNewman. I don't know what else to say Dan P. Maybe this will help. If you look at the illustration that JNewman posted above, the pointy piece ( the piece I was calling the "tapered piece"), is the piece that you would not be holding onto. If you'd try it, you'd see that.

Dan P, the one with square stock and the free taper or piece your not holding on to. The one I've seen most blacksmith groups start people out with, not the one Mark is doing with round stock and holding onto both pieces. Try it with no prep except a taper and a cut then fold it back on original square stock then pry it apart and you will see.

Thanks for that link, Eddie Mullins! He is one of the few that have addressed issues that I've been trying to discuss for quite some time. We discussed this a bit the other day on "blacksmithing enthusiasts" on Facebook. I believe it was Nath Oo that first brought it and related it to his experience of forging anchors and passing his tests.

Yes, Eddie Mullins, I enjoy talking about these things, learning more, and finding solutions. I would like to be able to discuss many more things here on IFI. The only weld that is similar in Marks other video that I mentioned is where he cuts and doubles back the pieces on top of themselves. Now his pieces are round, so that is a plus, but the thinning out of the stock at the base of two overlapping pieces still does occur but to a lesser degree and he is holding on to both pieces. He scarfs all the other pieces before he welds them end to end in the same line.

But they are not the same at all! Reread this thread or just try it with 3/8" or 1/2" square stock like they teach it here or just do it in clay. The results are always the same. You have to do something to remedy these conditions like what Michael Budd shows or the other things discussed so far.

ForgeMan32, I was exposed to this way of making tools when I worked with Alfred Habermann from 2004-2006. I modified some tools, came up with some simpler and lighter tools, used larger sledge hammers, made larger hammers because Craig Trnka, the founder of the WCB, said they wanted to have a hammer making contest when he saw my brother and I forging hammers at their first contest in Durango, Colorado. This is an old way of making tools, not my way! The WCB is very busy and has not got around to having the contest yet, but there are several people all around the world that are making tools like this now, thanks to the internet and the people that have gone away from here with the basic tools to do this with others, especially the farriers and young smiths. I will be at the A.A.C.B. Blacksmithing Conference May 16 & 17 demonstrating and talking about this and more, also, at the IBF in Devon, England in August with Alec Steele, Daniel Lea, and Daniel Riffe.

Very good video! Mark is addressing fundamental elements of forge welding that we all should and can be aware of, if we pay attention and notice what happens with our actions. I am sure Mark is well aware of what happens and why in the case of the weld that was specifically addressed in this thread. We are having a nice conversation on Facebook about this same issue and posting solutions. I do wish I was more computer literate. And like I say, just do it in clay. Mark Aspery's other forge welding video is also a very good one to watch. It was posted on Facebook in our discussion. I think some people are confusing these welds with what I'm trying to address. They are not the same at all.

Dan P, the reasons for welding were mentioned by others in this thread, I just asked the question and responded to answers. I'm just trying to have a conversation about forging. In my opinion, or from my observations, the tongs I've seen were welded on for all the reasons that have been stated already: economy of material, different properties of metals, ease of handling in the case of large and/or long tongs, and of course the opinion that it is faster and easier. I just question the use of using mild steel to weld to another piece of mild steel for small tongs and the assertion that it is faster and easier to do it, and welding a 3/8 hot rolled round rod and leaving it at that. I don't understand your conversations. They seem to get personal with you, and you make accusations. I'm just trying to talk about how and why we do what we do.

ForgeMan32, I can't tell much from the tiny picture, either. Alec and trinculo have made some good points. What material did you make the drifts from? I don't refer to these tools as my style. They are just a very old way of forging tools. The Mississippi Forge Council is going to try and organize a hammer making class and a hammer making contest towards the end of this year. We just started talking about it last week. I hope they can pull it off. It would be a great event, and we hope to attract everyone interested.