New and looking for advice

[Iron Fangs]

Cool, thanks irondragon

[anvil]

Thomas, I got that book you recommended on solid state welding. I read the intro and am into ch 1, the history. He gives a definition for solid state welding that sounds like politicians defining new taxes.  First he says its welding by force and there is no liquid phase. He then says, well, sometimes there is a little liquid but if it starts solid and then ends solid, its a solid state weld. sheesh. 

[Frazer]

9 minutes ago, anvil said:

Then 1% of 1% is .1%

1% = 0.01.

1% of 0.01 =  0.01% (alternatively, 0.0001) = 1 point.

Hence 1018 = 0.18% C = 18 points.

Its only confusing if you make it confusing... Not that my comment helps

[ThomasPowers]

1% is one one hundredth right?  One hundredth of one one hundredth is NOT one tenth, it's one ten thousandth!     .01 x .01 ==.0001

100 points equals 1% C  so  1 point is 1% (which is .01) of 1%;   .01 x .01 ==.0001

The dividing line between low carbon and medium carbon steel is 30 points not 3 points.

And Frazer types faster than me...

Any truth to the rumor that imaginary numbers were first thought up by folks missing fingers and toes?

[Daswulf]

37 minutes ago, Iron Fangs said:

Can I make a set of Tongs without using a preexisting set of Tongs?

Yes. I was playing around forging on a chunk of granite a while back. I managed to forge a junky but usable pair of tongs on it using two pieces of rebar ( not preferable material, I just used it because rebar gets brought up a lot for stock material because people recognize it and it is everywhere.)  

I wish I had done a step by step but I didn't. The real lesson is that it is knowledge of how to make something and doing it with whatever you might have vs. Those that think they just can't do something because they don't have "the" tools to do it.  I Would recomend a chunk of steel over granite as an anvil if possible.   

 

[JHCC]

John Switzer of Black Bear Forge has a good video* about this:

*Frankly, pretty much all of his videos are good.

[Iron Fangs]

I've been referred to him before actually

[JHCC]

Given the high quality of instruction and production values, along with the comprehensiveness of information presented, I'm not surprised.

[George N. M.]

Das, Granite is not the best stone for anvil use.  This is because it is made up of crystals of different minerals which each have a slightly different coefficient of expansion when heated by the hot metal.  This will result in the surface eventually degrading and decomposing.  A better stone anvil would be something more homogeneous in composition.  The best would be a green stone that has a fibrous composition and is very tough.  IMO jade or amphibolite would make pretty good anvils, tough and possibly more resistant to dinging and chipping than steel.  Possibly less rebound though.

John, from Black Bear Forge, is an active member of Rocky Mountain Smiths and is a really good guy.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[Daswulf]

Those are great points George. I didn't mean it to be a permanent solution but something to possibly get started with till you find something better. Honestly I would promote a larger sledgehammer head sunk in a stump about any day over a stone anvil. I did actually find some larger and seemingly tougher stones to try out with stones as hammers and possibly sticks as tongs to build from but I haven't had the play time to try.  

The pain reason I chose granite was that I had it and a piece might possibly be had from a grave stone cutters business. But all in all I would more so now recommend a chunk of steel in some form or another.  

[ThomasPowers]

I still want a 3 ton Jade boulder, nephrite by preference, a tad softer but tougher.

Note that stone anvils probably worked better when people were forging real wrought iron at white hot temps where it is very soft under the hammer indeed!

(I'm looking for a local source of basalt for a stone anvil, unfortunately the best ones I've seen were on various reservations and I don't have any contacts---yet.  I'm looking at a possibility I just found; but I've been given strong warnings to not visit till the *depths* of winter as the black rocks encourage rattlesnakes to linger and put off hibernation...)

[George N. M.]

Back in my geologist days I was working in Riverton, WY, which is near the jade deposits of central WY,  and knew a couple who had a sub-gem quality jade coffee table that had been slabbed out of an about 3-4 foot diameter boulder.

Thomas, if I come across something like this I'll get a hunk for you but I don't think I can rassle anything much larger than about 100 pounds into the SUV.  The trick is slabbing off a flat side for a working surface.  You really need a large diameter, water cooled, diamond blade saw to do it.  Not a common tool in most shops.  Might be able to get it done somewhere that cuts "granite" counter tops.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[Frosty]

I have an ultra mafic boulder, maybe a hornblend about the size of a pickup cab where our driveway forks. I'm thinking it'd make a primo anvil, no slabbing necessary, it's large enough to find all the flat area a boy could want. Plenty of gentle features for fullers, swages and dies too. 

Is it hard? Oh BABY it's part of a glacial till formation and has barely ANY striations. The big granite boulder in the goat pen shows plenty of striations though none deep. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Daswulf]

Oh man, I'm bummed that my reply didn't go through.  

Anyway in short, I was showing that it Can be done on harder stones. The granite i had at hand. 

I would more so advocate finding a chunk of steel even if a sledgehammer head sunk in a stump. 

I have a few stones i picked up that might make better anvils but they are unknown and if/when I try them I want to go almost full caveman with it and use stick tongs and stone hammers as well. 

Eh it was all written out better in my reply that didnt go through. But yeah, I would advocate a chunk of steel over a stone. 

 

Thomas, no, lol, I don't literally mean caveman times... 

[JHCC]

Not sure cavemen were forging much anyway. Certainly not enough to have dedicated anvils. 

[Iron Fangs]

No but their ways were pretty... set in stone

[JHCC]

Until they got hold of some flint and started to flake. 

[Purple Bullet]

9 hours ago, JHCC said:

Not sure cavemen were forging much anyway. Certainly not enough to have dedicated anvils. 

The myth of the Cyclops is said to originate from cave dwelling smiths that wore a single eyepatch as PPE. I'm not sure I buy that, but they claim it here.

[Iron Fangs]

I always like to say that there is no such thing as useless information, every scrap of it has some sort of use at some sort of time, even if you never have to use it someone else might make use of it

 

[JHCC]

20 minutes ago, Purple Bullet said:

The myth of the Cyclops is said to originate from cave dwelling smiths that wore a single eyepatch as PPE. I'm not sure I buy that

Yeah, I'm not buying it either. Burkert was a great scholar, to be sure, but I think that's a stretch. For one thing, I don't personally know of any evidence that ancient Greek smiths wore eyepatches, especially since that would cut way down on your depth perception. For another, Burkert's work had a strong focus on teasing out naturalistic explanations for ancient mythology, especially in concert with the findings of archaeology and the study of ancient inscriptions. This was groundbreaking in its day, but I think that it may have occasionally led him to some rather strained interpretations.

20 minutes ago, Purple Bullet said:

but they claim it here.

Vintage News is one of those sites that likes to present academic speculation as academic consensus. I've found that anything they present that looks interesting should probably be checked against actual scholarly work.

[Iron Fangs]

Can I use wood chisels on hot metal if they're steel? Asking because I already have a set of those with various shaped heads

[Purple Bullet]

RIght. Besides, all the Cyclops I've ever read about were not myths, they were mythsters. 

[JHCC]

Wood chisels aren't usually beefy enough for forge use, and their longer bevels probably wouldn't hold up too well. A lot depends on the individual chisels and their intended use, though. Got pictures? 

[Daswulf]

I have tried using a few lesser quality wood chisels on hot steel and they did not hold up well.  Better chisels and tools could be made from coil spring or other decent steel for the job. Tho we are pretty much out of fleamarket season, I've found plenty of old chisels and punches for not much money at them. 

Keep the wood chisels as wood chisels incase you might have a use for them down the road. 

[ThomasPowers]

Wood Chisels are usually tempered harder and so not good for impact against metal and working hot metal will destroy the temper making them worthless for wood chiselling.

Stone Chisels are a much better match!

As for "early" smiths: cold working of native metals has been found in a few places.