BillyBones Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 5160 is a pain in the ... to weld. What i like to do is use a small peice of filler between the pieces. I get high carbon band material from where i work and use that. We get it about 1 1/4" wide, a couple small pieces and about 90% of the time i get a good weld. That same strap makes nice fillet knives as well. Just cut it to shape, heat treat, put a handle on and sharpen. easy peasy. Just do not have it in the vise, turn real quick and hit the tip with your arm. Take it from my experience they are flexible and will run along the bone in your arm rather than just stopping. The last one i made ended up about 3" under the skin next to the bone. The wife called me names and laughed at me. The clock springs that some trucks, Dodge specifically, come with for the hood springs, make great bits for axes. They get way harder than a peice of coil or leaf spring i have found so not really sure of the material. It also seems to me that using old springs if there are cracks from fatigue i find them long, long before i heat treat anything. I should add that i do not make and sell knives so i am not worried about hurting a customer. Most of what i use it for is tooling that i use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wandering_R0gue Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 If I were to temper this back fir a couple hours, it would have no hardness whatsoever.... I generally find, Mayne an hour MAX for the blades I've made in the past. Why would you "retemper" a second time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzkill Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 Generally speaking, the effectiveness of tempering is more a function of temperature than time. We hold a temperature for a time to ensure an even temperature throughout the entire item. As with normalizing, multiple tempers can improve the characteristics of the steel, but there are diminishing returns. The first one has the largest impact by far. Subsequent temper cycles have less of an impact. So, when you say if you temper for a couple hours it would have no hardness whatsoever, what do you mean? If you were to temper at 200 degrees F, I would expect it to have very little impact on the steel even if you held the temperature for a full day. On the other hand if you were to temper at 1000 degrees F for an hour I would expect the steel to lose most of the gained hardness (assuming a simple steel alloy). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 I'm no metallurgist, but my understanding is that tempering is a function of both temperature AND time -- that is to say, the transition from quenched (untempered) martensite to tempered martensite is not instantaneous, so the piece has to be held at the proper temperature for long enough for that to happen. Multiple tempering cycles are (I believe) designed to minimize temper embrittlement. High-alloy steels tend to retain some amount of austenite that does not convert immediately to martensite when the steel is first quenched, but will eventually convert to untempered martensite over time. However, a tempering cycle which converts untempered martensite to tempered martensite also converts that retained austenite to untempered martensite, thus increasing brittleness. This brittleness can be reduced by multiple tempering cycles, as each cycle reduces the amounts of retained austenite and untempered martensite to the point that they're not a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzkill Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 John, Have you ever tempered an item by watching the colors run and quenching at the right color? How much time was there at temperature if you did? Technically it requires enough time to alter the structure, but that can be measured in seconds in some cases. Regardless, the statement that it is MORE a function of temperature than time is still accurate to the best of my knowledge. In this instance I believe either Rogue misunderstands the tempering process or I'm not understanding what he's saying. To the best of my knowledge there is no risk of losing the hardness of an item by tempering for a longer period of time at the appropriate temperature, or multiple temper cycles at the appropriate temperature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 I explained tempering a second time in the heat treat sticky, you wont ruin it by tempering again or for "too long" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 John, HIGH alloy steels tend to have very special heat treatment requirements to deal with the other alloying metals not so much simple austenite / martensite. High alloy steels often require ramping kilns with all sorts of soak, rest, etc. cycles. Quite a few high alloy steels are air hardening and tempering is beyond the capacity of the typical home shop. Low alloy high carbon steels only require enough time at temperature for it to equalize to depth. If time were a factor it would be impossible to apply a differential temper. No? We did a LOT of in shop heat treatment in Dad's shop but he sent a whole lot out to the heat treaters. One of my favorites was the dry ice alcohol soak, the parts would scream as they chilled. Old memories. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 2 minutes ago, Frosty said: John, HIGH alloy steels tend to have very special heat treatment requirements to deal with the other alloying metals not so much simple austenite / martensite. Yes, I know. I'm just saying that multiple tempering cycles helps with the retained austenite/temper embrittlement in high-alloy steels, not that that's the only reason for more complicated heat treatments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 NO, they do NOT do anything good for low alloy steel like the OP is using. The embrittlement issues you're talking about are a HIGH alloy thing and have nothing to do with the steel he's using. He ran the hardness out of his blade by getting it too hot, not too long. It's not like the blade is 3/4" thick. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 Frosty, I'm answering the general question "Why would you 'retemper' a second time?", not talking about any specific blade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 Because you're relying on what some guy on the internet says instead of picking up a book? Even if you had looked up good heat treatment info, this case is mystery metal to a degree anyway because modern springs are manufactured to a performance spec, not an analysis spec. There is no telling what heat treatment was used at the spring manufacturer and THEY do practical evaluation of the steel they buy because of the vagaries in the recycle loop. Hence my suggestion to do a practical heat treat evaluation and general directions for performing one. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wandering_R0gue Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 I meant that, at the proper temper temperatures, if I put it in for hours, I would move well past the colour spectrum required, and would wind up with a soft blade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 no. a longer time wont make a item too soft unless you have the temperature too high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 NO, it would NOT. You had the temp set too high. You REALLY need to do some reading in the Iforge heat treatment section. Maybe buy Steve's book or perhaps Jim Hrisolis's or one of the REAL bladesmiths who make their living at making good blades. You can find a lit in the IFI blade section. Forget Youtube, or the blogs, etc. The ONLY qualifications necessary to be a Youtube expert is a camera and ISP connection. Same for a Blog entry. I've had enough of this thread, I'm not going to argue with someone who asks a question and doesn't bother to read the answers. I have better things to do. MUCH better. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latticino Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 As I understand it, tempering a second time is often recommended to address the martensite that can get transformed from retained austenite after the first tempering cycle. This is also one of the reasons you are supposed to let the quenched billet cool down to room temperature before tempering so you can improve the overall transition of austenite to martensite that mostly takes place during the quench. Of course a lot depends on the specific steels you are using, and the heat treatment requirements and processes can vary pretty widely. The guideline for double tempering is for more typical blade/blacksmith steels like 4140, 5160, 1075, 1084, 1095, and 52100. Note that when you "run the colors" to temper a tool it is usually recommended that the oxide tempering colors are brought up more than once as well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 Did a little bowl-bashing in between Trick-or Treaters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim86 Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 Hey all, nice cool day for november here so thought i'd try an idea for a candle holder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hefty Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 Jim, I love the sneaky round to square transition so you could add the twist! A subtle change but it links the two arms to the twisted main stem. Cheers, Jono. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyBones Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 (edited) Jim, how are the candles held in place. I do not see a cup so i am assuming it is a spike. Are the drip pans welded in place and the spike made from a tenon? Nice idea, i like it. I love making candle holders. There are so many variations you can do, From wall mount, table top, or even floor stand. My wife will not let me make her any anymore. Nice cool Nov. day, technically we were still in Oct. but we got our first snowfall today. Edited November 1, 2023 by BillyBones forgot ssomething Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim86 Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 Thanks Jono, yeah i thought i would add the twists for something a little more exciting, just had to make the last bends right in one heat cause it wouldnt fit back in the forge lol. Billy, it was my first candle holder so just winged it as i went, was going to use a spike for the candles but then thought it would look good with those small tea light candles too, so no spike, figured the melted wax would hold them, ( mabye not though..may have to mod a small spike on thinking about it..) Yeah they are welded on. Will be trying a few more for sure! Snowfalls nice! Wish it snowed here but just isnt cold enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rojo Pedro Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 Nice candle stick. I have been using my welder a lot more lately and want to try one now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 You did a heck of a job getting those last two bends right Jim. The bit of asymmetry is a nice artistic touch. All round well done. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostTownForge Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 Jim, I really love those candle holders. I was about to make my own out of pipe, but I might also have to make some of those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad J. Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 Jim that is a great candle holder. Do you have a coal forge, gas forge or both? In the past I've stated superhuman in one that I have to finish in the other. Working a piece straight until I had to make a large bend that wouldn't let me work in the propane forge type of stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim86 Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 Rojo, for sure, give it a go and post a pic, id like to see it, i dont mind a bit of ( candle ) stick welding;) Thanks Frosty, appreciate it alot mate. Chad, I have a charcoal and 2 burner gas forge, i use the gas now mostly as its quicker but it is a bit limited with certain shapes, ( couldn't fit a bit of coil spring in it to straighten last time!) then to get the bends just right( only had to straighten them a few millimetres) for the holder after it was done i use a mapp gas torch. Thanks everyone, have a good day. Jim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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