JLP Blacksmith Teaching Center.

[George N. M.]

Jen,  There have been a number of discussions about heating the new building and that is certainly of immediate importance in January.  However, how much thought have you given to summer cooling?  I know that it can get warm and humid in Massachusetts in the summer and I am thinking that if you have 6 propane forges running in the middle of July it may get uncomfortably hot.  I am not suggesting air conditioning but you may need some big fans to move air in and out of the large doors.  Exhaust fans near the work stations to get air moving where it is most needed might be a possibility.  Some large water coolers, possibly at each work station, for hydration may not be amiss either. 

Of course, I suspect that you will probably be more likely to have students working in the fall and spring and may be at events more often in the summer months.

GNM

[jlpservicesinc]

George..  )Originally when I started this project I looked at splits, Geothermal, heat pumps as well as a few other things.. (air misters) and AC.

In Rutland, It is 5 degrees cooler than the surrounding towns so we have that in favor and we also have a breeze a good portion of the time. 

The large doors each end and the fact that I account for the angle of the sun (little sunlight in building ) in summer all play in as does the front shed dormer roof offering a great amount of shade to cool the air before it enters the building. 

I also looked at a double setup for louvered vents with fan..  

Currently I'm not taking any steps to move into any aspects of cooling since it's just another money aspect. 

Once it has electric, and heat,  I won't spend another penny  of my own money on it.  I will have to fund a portapotty for the first class/es..  but in order for this to work, it has to pay for its own running expenses and any upgrades. (cooling, fans, etc). 

If not then I just won't have classes in summer..  

The school even without cooling is going to be stellar.. With this said. If it never works out, I could go back to welding and auto repair and the occasional blacksmithing job to pay for the taxes..  

We all ready got this years tax bill.. Ouch..  They did not take into account the money the project cost me..  they take into account what it would cost if all the work was done externally. 

All the items you mentioned would be excellent..    The other item which I will likely fund is an eye wash station. 

But, right now I am not concerned with cooling.. Besides it's going to be at least 1 or 2 years before gas forges of any type or style will find a home.. 

I do have in mind a neat regenerative forge design that will eliminate nearly all the dragons breath and vented heat.. So, we will just have to see what unfolds.. 

1 foot in front of the other is about as much as I can muster at this point. 

 

[George N. M.]

Jen:  I don't know how you have your business and personal finances set up but you need to have a good accountant and/or attorney advising you.  For example, should the new shop be taxed at a commercial rate before it is actually in operation or not?  Or should it be at a residential or vacant property rate?  Generally, property taxes are based on the value of the land and the improvements and that is determined by comparison of sales of similar property, not what an improvement actually cost.  You might have spent $30k and increased the value of the property $50k or you might have spent $100k but only increased the value of the property $50k.  Also, there is usually a lag time in valuation and the assessment of taxes, sometimes a year or 18 months.

I don't know MA tax law, that is why I am suggesting that if you don't already have local expert advice that you should get it.

Also, you may want to isolate the school function financially from your personal or other business finances.  A CPA will be able to explain the ramifications better than I can.

BTW, shade doesn't much cool the air, it isn't dense enough, but it will cool or prevent heating of any more solid objects (like people) in the shade.

I thought about misters too but thought that it would probably rust things too much.

I am really enjoying watching you pull this together.  

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[jlpservicesinc]

I appreciate your counsel..   But not going to engage about taxes and such. in this..  Sorry, but it's a lost argument even before it's started.. 

It's being taxed at a home owner rate..  It's not a business.. currently..  LOL..    No one can escape death and taxes..  


Not saying once gas forges go in that it won't need cooling or fans of some sort..  Just saying it's not a concern at the moment.  So many other fish to fry before coming into that problem. 

There is a lot of little factors that will have to be addressed business wise as the "School" becomes a school but that is a long ways off. 

I like that you are bringing these concerns up, but I have all ready thought and discussed this with the appropriate people. 

It's complex..   The building is owned by us..  So do we rent or lease it to the business..  Do we open it as a 501c or as a charter..  Do we go after accreditation?  Do we go after colleges as and outreach program?   

It can be as complex or as simple as desired..    My desire right now is simply to deal with the items in front of me and as they get ticked off the list the more it will be possible to see exactly what the next step is. 

Sadly with all of it, the bottom line is money..  How much is there to spend and what kind of money is coming in to spend. 

Like said..  I'm hopeful it will work out, but this journey is not over yet and we will see how many more hurdles there will be. 

Shade does not cool the air, but the air going through the shade mixes with with the passing air, and that is the reason why it indeed cools the air.  You just need a long enough area so the air can pick up the cooler air towards the ground to mix it.. 

My guess is in the summer it's will be about 7 to 10F cooler in the shop then outside. 



Do you suffer in the heat of the summer? 

[Fowllife]

I’m going to drop my 2 cents which is worth exactly what you paid for it. As for your planned layout, the biggest issue I would have is the car lift. At a minimum I would slide it into a corner somewhere, but even better would be to slide it out of the building. I get what your trying to do, but I wouldn’t mix work (the school/forging) with play (working on cars.) I would hold off on that and only install into building IF the school doesn’t work out and this building becomes your personal garage. 

I would think an office would be a good idea. If you ever plan on having other instructors, or open forge nights of any kind then the more glass the better so you can “supervise” from a distance if need be. I didn’t look at your plan that close, but I would also make sure you incorporate a large enough area for a lockable tool crib for your personal tools.

One comment George made earlier I would like to clarify is about codes. While some utilities or rural areas may get confused on which code to apply where, the building code is pretty cut and dry on what type of building it does and does not apply to. Unfortunately with your intended use you fit squarely into the commercial code with this project. I hope when you said you have talked to the local people and they are on board with your plans you meant your local building department? If someone down the road makes you get a Certificate or Occupancy (CO) you may be in a mess trying to prove your building complies as it probably does not.  In most jurisdictions a CO is required for any change of building use, and all new buildings used for commercial purposes. 

George does bring up a good point on summer cooling & ventilation. As I mention at the beginning of your project, I do think you need some exhaust fans and louvers. One key point of hearing and cooling in fresh air. Wether it be summer or winter you should be bringing some fresh air into the building.

I think some of your headaches of caused by using a residential mindset for a commercial project. Unfortunately they are two different animals. You electrical service problem is one of these issues. An electrician or engineer that’s familiar with the situation can sometimes ask the right questions to lead the power company to the outcome they want. While having two services isn’t unheard of in this area it not as common as it used to be. If your building are relatively close to each other they would probably ask for a single service to feed both structures. On farm/grain bin sites it’s still fairly common to have separate services when there is considerable distance from the farm house.  There are fairly easy ways to do this and a local electrician would know what the power company prefers. Yes it will cost more now but may save you in the long run. Depending on your home power needs you may even be able to use 400a for everything. 

In my earlier post on floor slab recommendations I didn’t catch the multiple large power hammers and car lift. A 5” slab may be ok for the lift, but some require more depending on capacity. There will also be a distance from any control joint you need to maintain. The power hammers would make me nervous. If it were mine I would isolate a foundation for at least the big one, possibly all of them? Maybe an isolation mat under the hammer would be enough though? I haven’t been around or used a power hammer thought so maybe I’m assuming they cause move vibration and shock loading then they do?

Once again, just my 2cents. 

Tom

[George N. M.]

Laramie is officially 7165' (at the train station) above sea level and it is about 7500' at our house.  High summer temps are usually in the 70s and 80s.  The all time high record temperature for Laramie is 94 degrees.  Madelynn, my wife, is originally from FL and it messed with her weather paradigm a bit to realize that she will never again have to deal with triple digit temperatures.  The average high in July is 79 degrees F. and the average low is 51 degrees.  So, yes, it can get warm but not hot in a midwest, east, or south sense.  Also, the humidity tends to be low, not AZ or NM low but a lot lower than many other places.  Very few people around here have central air conditioning but some have window AC units for their bedrooms.  Because of the high altitude things cool off quickly at night with low temperatures, even on "hot" days, being in the 50s or even 40s in the summer. 

In general, summer in Laramie is very nice and even on the warmest days it is easy to get to the mountains (above 10,000') to find cooler temperatures.

BTW, in comparison with much of the country Wyoming is fairly unregulated.  In unincorporated Albany County (where we live) there are NO building codes at all.  If you want to build something out of cardboard boxes and paper mache and wire it with old paper clips be it on your own head.  Also, and this has been mentioned before, but WY has the highest number of per capita firearms in the US and little of no regulation of firearms.  Whether that is good or bad is up to the individual. 

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand." 

[George N. M.]

Jen:  As Fowllife stated your new shop building, as I understand it, will fit into a commercial classification if you are using it for producing income.  If it is only for hobby use with minimal income producing use it is probably an accessory building to a residential use.  If it is used as a non-profit school it may fall into its own category.

This can be good news and bad news.  The good news is that it may be taxed at a lower rate than a residence depending on MA tax laws.  The bad news is that it may be necessary to obtain a commercial certificate of occupancy before it can be used, again, depending on local and state laws.  If it is used/owned by a non-profit educational corporation it may be tax exempt but may have some specific code requirements.

As usual, a messy situation.  I REALLY hope that you are right with and have had deep and meaningful conversations with your local building and land use folk.  I know it is late in the game but unpleasant surprises are better and cheaper sooner than later.

I may be hyper sensitive to these issues but I have spent years on the regulatory side and have seen folk really get unnecessarily wrapped around the axle financially and emotionally because they didn't do their due diligence early on and didn't get informed advice.  I do NOT want to see that happen to a friend and if I can offer any information or advice to avoid that I will.

GNM  

[Fowllife]

Being for profit or non profit does not change how you fall into the building code, the use is still the same. Profit or non-profit would affect tax base though, along with several other things. Had that been established before the start all materials could have been purchased with no sales tax paid, with the proper documentation.

I may also be a little sensitive to this as well. It seems every few years we get a client that calls us after the fact and they are having an issue with one of our local building departments and needs some help. In all of the states I've done work in commercial projects have always been required to comply with a form of the International Building Code (IBC.) In my area commercial is regulated by either the state of a local building department depending on the county/city you are in. Residential is hit and miss as some counties/city's have a building department and enforce residential code and some do not. Some will require plumbing or electrical permits & inspections but nothing building wise. Others will required a permit for a house but not for a accessory structure. One I know of requires building a electrical permits for small accessory building. As I said, residential is very hit and miss, but commercial is very consistent. 

I actually have a friend going through it right now as well. He wanted to build a brewery/bar. I told him from the start the proper path to take and he would not listen. He has now been fighting with the local heath department for close to a year because he didn't get a building permit and doesn't have proof of what he did.....

This next part is not necessarily for JLP as she is close to finishing her project, but for other members that may be thinking about a similar project. Even though the money side is a lot more it sometimes makes sense to hire a project out. A good contractor might have cost twice as much, but something this size would have been done in 5-7 weeks from start to finish. There are missed opportunity cost from having both money and time tied up for long periods, and from delayed income potential. Running a cost/income analysis both ways can sometimes be an eye opening experience and should be done before every major project begins. Even though I have been in construction for a long time, there are some things I wouldn't do myself. A good crew can accomplish more in 3 days then I can in 3 months working by myself only working nights and weekends. Case in point, I had a pole barn built a few years ago (32'x56'x16' eave.) They had it built in 3 days where as it would have been 2-4 months for me to get it done, the $4k in labor was well worth it.

I don't mean to diminish what Jenifer has done. She has taken on a larger project then most could handle and is close to finishing what she started. That is a big accomplishment. 

 

[jlpservicesinc]

It's always interesting to me "What people find to be important or additive".. 

Ok, so really.. I have never been into an air conditioned school or forging facility in the North East..  A fan or 2 sure and even down South where the humidity is off the charts no cooling.. But, that is something else.. 

But as for cooling the forging area.. "Never" is subjective with personal space vs school or Blacksmith shop..  

So, cooling will be addressed when the time comes.. 

George my point about taxes is/was that usually a person is not taxed until the project is "done"..   this project is not done and so could go to the town and tell them that.. But in town it's a whole bunch of nonsense that I won't go into.. 

You guys are going over stuff I covered when I conceived of doing this..  I didn't go into this blind.. 

I pulled a business permit years ago for JLP Services Inc  which is a blanket business license..  I looked at the bylaws and addressed this with building location..   In Rutland they offer a 1/3 in house business and outside as long as it's behind the house you can practically do anything you want to within reason. (common sense) and everything has to be approved before one can even begin construction.. I met with the building inspector 6-8 times before the ground was touched. 

George. I'm ok with building and electrical and heating codes..  I think its a good thing..  Easier not to have them sure.. 

As for type of business.. it's not messy really..  It just becomes what would be best at that given time frame..  things can be as complicated or simple as one wants and getting blind sided as you pointed out with jibberish and town policy can be complicated for sure. 

JLP Services Inc is and S corp and offers many services..  Farrier, welding, forgings, bicycle parts, high performance car parts and was ran out of the Garage for many years..  Now it will simply move into the new building.. 

Again, cart and horse.. What does it need to be..  Not sure yet.. And no reason to figure it out right now as to business type or new filing for 501c etc, etc. etc.  

Fowlife: as for a school and permits for occupancy and fresh intake air..  the air has been accounted for with vents and also intake air for the forges.. drawing in air from outside via the forge blowers.. But also with vents up high that will run in from the back wall over the IR heater to prewarm the air..  (Yup all ready accounted for in winter) and ran by the Heating inspector with a thumbs up.. 

You sound like it's one of your "Expert or Professional departments" so will leave it to you..

If you can elaborate with positive information as to the right way to do it vs what you are not doing, it's usually more helpful..  Elaborate with examples or suggestions which way to go..

From what I read on "Occupancy", with only 8 or even 10 students the area for occupancy school code wise would not be a problem because they go by Area and number of people as a beginning starter point of which is met..  the only problem that might exist is no rear exit but for the size of the building for a given area for a given amount of students.  there is no mention but once the back doors are functional they would meet fire code.. No need for fire suppression.. 

If I lived somewhere where there were no inspections I'd still do it to code anyhow.  (national codes) The codes are pretty easy to find and while they are not instructional they do give guidance.  And then do a bunch of reading and seek guidance when needed..  

I don't see it as messy at all.  Pretty simple really.. 

Most people respond and are drawn to complexity.. In fact they kinda crave it..    If the school is to be then it will be..  If the school is not to be, then it won't be.    Doesn't get much simpler then that.. 

No matter what happens it will all work out..   


Fowlife  the lift was planned for as were the power hammers.. 

You'd maybe have to go back a few installments that I wrote "I did not go with infloor heating because I am not sure where I will be cutting holes for the power hammers"..    




 

[Fowllife]

Yes, building/codes/construction is my thing.

My post were meant more to clarify/expand on George's comment and for general IFI info more so then how they pertain to your project. You at least seem to have a basic knowledge of building codes which from my experience most people do not. If you or the mod's feel they are not appropriate they are free to delete them.

There are some slight inaccuracies in your post, but if you local building guy is OK with what you are doing they are all irrelevant anyways. As long as they aren't going to cause any issues your golden.

The worst part about long multi page post is that any info more then a page or two back has a tendency to get lost if not brought back up, hence me missing the hammer part. But I've also worked with too many conservative engineers over they years so I would always err on the side of auction.....

I apologize if I came off as telling you you are doing something wrong, or digging into your business as that was not my intent. Good luck with your project.

Tom

 

[jlpservicesinc]

Fowllife  again if there is an error in what I wrote..  Please correct them.. Again, information correction is much appreciated.. 

My response again.  Is simply better to education then castrate..  Better to correct than to fault.  

I'm very curious and the more knowledge the better.. 

The information was paraphrased from what was online..  it can be looked up easily but much of it also has to do with the individual and how they interrpret it.. 

As and example when I was meeting with the heating inspector I had told him what I was doing and he printed out some codes to look at.. 

Funny thing is I printed out and gave him the same codes to look at as example of why I could do it.. 

[jlpservicesinc]

Classroom Occupant Loading and Egress: What You Need to Know

PETER M. VERNON, ICC MASTER CODE PROFESSIONAL

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Peter M. Vernon joined HR Green as a Certified Master Code Professional and Certified Building Official in 2015, bringing more than 40 years of experience. This experience encompasses engineering, construction, administration, and code enforcement of public and private sector construction programs including education, library, commercial, industrial, and manufacturing facilities. In addition to holding 20 ICC certifications he is one of eight individuals currently qualified to perform full plan review and inspection with the Illinois State Board of Education.

 

It is not just a matter of how many people can be accommodated in a classroom. It is also how many people can we safely shelter and evacuate.

“Recently, I read an article discussing occupant loading in classrooms and found the subject interesting. I have personally been involved in this area of construction and compliance since 2001,” said Vernon. “As I read through the article I noticed what appeared to be a disconnect in the explanation of the compliance evaluation process as it relates to occupant loading and egress (exit).” He further explains, “It is not just a matter of how many people can be accommodated in a classroom. It is also how many people can be safely sheltered and evacuated.”

 

Occupant loading in classrooms has to take into consideration what the District wants, or the ideal teaching environment₁ versus what the codes require or permit.

THE IDEAL CLASSROOM & APPLYING CODE REQUIREMENTS

When we consider the ideal classroom, we may think in terms of 15:1 or 20:1 student:teacher ratios. When we discuss the realities of District resources, we may see as much as 25:1 or 35:1. Applying the code requirements between these two scenarios requires analysis of the unique environment. Three questions must be asked:

1. What is the intent of the codes?
2. What are the objectives?
3. How do the codes aid in achieving its stated objectives?

To the first question, IBC Section 101.3 gives the straightforward answer; “…Intent. The purpose of this code is to establish the minimum requirements to provide a reasonable level of safety, public health, and general welfare through structural strength, means of egress facilities…and safety to life and property from fire and other hazards attributed to the built environment and to provide a reasonable level of safety to fire fighters and emergency responders during emergency operations…”.

While the first answer provides clarity, the answers to the second and third questions are a bit more complicated. The abbreviated code objectives are:

1. Provide a safe structure in which to live and/or work.
2. In the event of some hazardous or catastrophic occurrence, the persons inside AND the first responders coming onto the scene will have an increased likelihood of survival.

In the discussion of occupant loading, you achieve the objectives, in part, by analyzing the potential occupant loading based on the function or use of the space(s). Then, the egress components and elements to determine how many persons can, if necessary, be evacuated.

CODE REQUIREMENTS & OCCUPANCY LOADS

The code mandates maximum loading in terms of square feet (sf)/person, providing potential loading by the overall dimension of the space to be occupied. However, taking into account the original applicable construction code, there are specific qualifiers to the base values (see School Code Matrix table below). Most of the areas listed are based on the GROSS area, or wall-to-wall. But some, such as day care centers, dormitories, and education functions rely on NET area. These types of spaces often have fixed elements, such as pipe chases or small storage closets that are not likely to change.

       School Code Matrix (IBC Table 1004.1.2)

EXAMPLE

In a 30’x30’ classroom, there are 900 sf (gross). If there are no other obstructions (small storage closets, pipe chases, etc.), this translates to 900 sf (net) @ 20 sf/person = 45 persons maximum occupant load. So, there is a capacity to shelter 45 persons.

The occupant load factor in this example is from the current building code (2015 IBC) and applies to new construction, additions, and occasionally existing buildings (depending on the level of modification).

If this classroom example is in a building constructed in 1980, it falls under the jurisdiction of Title 23 IL Admin Code Parts 175 and 185. Under these requirements, the occupant loading is calculated 18 sf/person, or 50 persons.

Furthermore, if you have a storage room, or a wood shop built under the current (2015) code, the space must have EITHER a 1-hour fire separation OR be fully sprinklered. If the space was constructed under Part 175 or Part 185 (pre-1995), the code requires a minimum 1-hour fire resistance rating REGARDLESS of whether you are sprinklered. 

So, the code year can effect various factors such as the number of allowed persons per square feet as well as requirements for fire resistance. One crucial point to note is that when you examine an existing building, you must apply the code in effect at the time of construction, and you cannot reduce the level of protection provided under the original construction.

As stated earlier, it’s not just a matter of how many people can be accommodated in a classroom, it’s also how many people can be safely sheltered and evacuated which leads us to our next criteria, egress components for evacuation.

EGRESS COMPONENTS FOR EVACUATION

Egress components need to be evaluated separately, beginning with the door.

Egress components need to be evaluated separately, beginning with the door. The code says to evaluate the CAPACITY of a door by the net width of the opening, typically .2”/person on a level surface (no ramps or stairs). The net width of a typical 36” classroom door opening is about 33.75” (36” – (1 ¾” door thickness + ½” door stop)) or 168 persons (33.75 divided by .2 = 168.75 no rounding up).

Again, the factor used in this example is from the current building code (2015 IBC) and applies to new construction, additions, and occasionally existing buildings (depending on the level of modification). For most remodeling projects in an existing building, the same 36” door has a capacity of 200.

Considering this calculation, why can’t there be 168 or 200 persons in the classroom? The area dimension of the classroom is the limiting factor since this may also be a shelter. The door is the exit access or an orifice into the next important element of the egress system, the exit passageway.

EXIT PASSAGEWAY 

The exit passageway is a protected path to an exit that also has a rated capacity. The current 2015 IBC requires a minimum 44” width for an exit passageway. On a level surface (not a ramp or stair), this results in a capacity of 220 persons (44” divided by .2 = 220), or almost five of our classroom examples. Of course, the design professionals must take into account the calculated occupant loading that will utilize the corridor/passageway in determining required exit passageway width. The current 2015 IBC requires a minimum 72” in width for a corridor, but if the facility was built before March of 1995 (and there are many hundreds of these in Illinois), you are required to have a minimum 8’ (96”) if your calculated corridor occupant load is over 200 (4 of our example classrooms), 7’ (84”) if your calculated load is over 100 (2 of our example classrooms), and 6’ (72”) if your calculated corridor occupant load is over 50 persons.

EXIT DISCHARGE

The exit discharge, simply stated, is the point where you have come out of the structure and entered the public way to a pre-determined assembly point. You have now exited the building.

Occupant loading is not just a matter of how many people can be accommodated in a classroom. It is also how many people can be safely sheltered and evacuated. Whether performing a plan review or inspection, your Code professional does not dictate design, but they should be paying particular attention to this critical part of the overall program, Life Safety.

[jlpservicesinc]

So, yesterday I sent an email to the electric job owner (it's what they call it) with the appropriate desired information.. 

He was very good about helping me and actually conversed several times..  The information submitted now goes to the engineer  to verify the load requirements and to verify that the information submitted jives..  

Guess how long it takes..    3 weeks.. LOL..  Just kidding, he said couple of weeks.  He then prefaced that with the storms there is a delay but the engineer likes to get things done quick..  

So, once I hear back I can buy the remaining items needed for the UG SE..  With this I learned that there is what is called a "Tariff" which is the basic billing block.   He said it's possible it will be a G1

shared_constr_esb759b.pdf

[ThomasPowers]

Just as a general warning to folks reading this not experienced:  My Pastor and his wife built their own straw bale house and went into the codes very deeply and had an inspector tell them that although the state code allowed for the type of foundation they were planning; as Inspector he would NOT sign off on such a foundation!   His opinion trumped the code.

When I had the first part of my shop built; the contractor employed the person who had been a code inspector for the state and I think all the inspections were done over the phone...

I sometimes wish we had not sold off the extra acreage when we bought this place as I could qualify for "farm" status which has very lax codes for other structures  indeed!

[Steve Sells]

When I started to build my new shop 13 or so years ago, I had already established a relationship with the local code inspector to prevent surprises with fire codes and such.  But I found out the hard way he retired before I finished, when the new guy showed up for the final inspection. I was scared, but the first words out of his mouth were, Wow a side draft forge.... it turned out he was an apprentice smith when younger. so he understood what was a fire risk and what was not,  It passed just fine.

[jlpservicesinc]

Steve, the nice thing is I have met with all the folks and the original building inspector numerous times..  I also do blacksmithing demos and have the blacksmith demo trailer at the ready if need be for demonstration of what goes on. 

Sadly the original building inspector moved on and only a temp is in place.. While I have kept in touch with the temp inspector I still have months of work to do before anybody will fully sign off. 

I honestly don't see where there will be any issues as things have been done with approval from the inspectors that have been here. 

The largest problem I find is phone chat..   Without getting someone to come see they have no concept of what is actually going on.   

The temp inspector when I was getting ready to pour the floor I contacted him a week before the work was to start. I asked him about infloor vacuum extraction systems..     His immediate response was "NO" you can't suck all the air out of a building and have it be ok..    LOL..   So, had to explain that it was used as a fume extraction point for welding and it would take a 3" rubber hose and collect the fumes from the welding rod or mig weld.   

As soon as I made the common connection he said " Oh, you are setting it up for welding.. I'd love to have a fume extractor, I've made exhaust manifolds and such..  

So, many people have such a knee jerk reaction that immediately they completely shut down. 

The other group I run into are the ones that "NO one can do it because no one else is smart enough unless they have been trained"..    

And lastly which is the toughest group of all and seems to be the most consistent are the "Nay doers" and will cut down every thing, and every idea they possibly can because it's "YOUR" idea and not mine.. 

This last group has been so consistent throughout my life that I often wonder if part of it , if not all of it  is my own drawing out. 

I am 100% sure it will work out exactly as it's supposed to.. 

In some regards because I over do everything it gives me some leeway.. Besides I am ready to adapt when need be. 

 

2 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

  His opinion trumped the code.

 

Yes, this is one of the big problems..  

I am in no way a " pro builder"..  Nor can recommend anything to anybody..  I know quite a bit about forging metal and a whole lot about trimming horses..  But, 

I am just sharing my experiences and what has been looked at.. 

Anytime you involve a human being in anything, it's a crap shoot.   Every chance is just a roll of the dice.  Finding that common connection is so important and sometimes sharing the enthusiasm can also have them join in too. 

[SLAG]

I.F.I. Smiths,

 Building inspectors are not above the law and so that they can do anything they please. They are bound by building codes just as we are.

A newly instilled inspector cannot, by fiat, (on a whim),   change the rules and interpretation of those rules in a dictatorial manner and thus change the original inspector's interpretations, and requirements. 

The applicant is not at the mercy of that 'new' inspector

Your discussions and the determinations and information by the original inspector do not automatically expire when the new inspector takes over.

The forge applicant has a legal case, (defense), pursuant  to the legal doctrine called "Reliance" (it has different names in different jurisdictions).

Expenditures, and costs and acts done in reliance done in pursuance of the  original inspector's instructions are the ultimate responsibility of the regulatory authority. (There is an "estoppel" defense,  that can be made in this situation. Do not worry about knowledge of this legal area of the law, just mention it to the inspector. It has intimidation value).

The forge builder has a right to get an adjudication if such a scenario occurs. (in other word, for example, an appeal to the inspector's superiors or even a court fight.). Of course we do not want to go to court, but mentioning same to the inspector, or his department will separate us from the average applicant and they will  take notice and usually stop being obstructive.

Please note that the above note pertains to common Law legal jurisdictions. and may not apply to other jurisdiction. (civil code countries,  and also the state of Louisiana).

Have a great day.

SLAG

[anvil]

On 1/5/2021 at 3:49 PM, Fowllife said:

Yes, building/codes/construction is my thing

 

On 1/4/2021 at 10:33 PM, George N. M. said:

As Fowllife stated

 

4 hours ago, SLAG said:

Building inspectors are not above the law

I just wanted to thank all you guys for the referesher course on code. I did a log home as an owner builder and a stone/iron/log shop, all by code and working with the inspectors. Third major building next year. 

You brought alot back into focus,refreshed many things i had forgotten, and quite a bit of new info.

Worth its weight in gold!

[jlpservicesinc]

Fowllife I really appreciate your input..  It's the reason I post as much information as I do..   I don't have all the information or answers and anybody who is willing to offer assistance is greatly appreciated.. 

While the information might get passed by as the thread grows it can be looked up or referenced, but also for the people who come up behind there is a record. 

I am so much happier when the information is posted vs a PM..  Many don't want to add to a thread because they don't want to argue their points of information..  I fully understand that..  Nice thing is "Codes" are in PDF or blog type formats or journals so something like that can be easy to share..    

One thing that I have found though is often "language" is different and how people see or understand things is different, so by posting it in a thread, it allows for a conversation and if open enough the information can be shared and understood by all..  

Once 1 persons understands a piece of information it's easier for person #2 to get it, and then 4, 8, 16, etc, etc, etc. especially as a collective the  people who get it help the people who don't. 

I actually like learning about codes and finding those little tidbits that get lost via simple conversation. 

Slag, thanks for the legal info.. 

So far so good..  Got anything about being able to do you own electrical work?    I won't be installing the SE (service entrance) as it takes a licensed electrician to pull the permit..  But I am very cable with outlets, lights, etc, etc. 

 

Edited January 7, 2021 by Mod30
Remove @name tag

[Fowllife]

10 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

I sometimes wish we had not sold off the extra acreage when we bought this place as I could qualify for "farm" status which has very lax codes for other structures  indeed!

While this may have helped you with you with a small residential project, it would not have helped  if you were doing a commercial building. New Mexico state law would still require you to get a Commercial building permit if you were to put up a Commercial building. There is a very big difference between Residential project and Commercial project. I have not done the research but I would be willing to bet the vast majority of states will require permitting and following codes for Commercial project. Zoning/lot use would be the lax codes in you situation. Most rural areas do not enforce residential codes, even if they do have them on the books. The key point I'm trying to make here is there is a huge difference between commercial and residential.

Slag - You are absolutely correct in what you stated, the only issue would be if no building permit has been applied for, or issued, there would be no documentation to fall back on. If a certificate of plan approval, or partial approval has been issued and signed by the applicant, and all of the proper inspections have been made and signed off on you have a solid paper trail. But, if non of that has been done it's pretty hard to prove and becomes a he said she said situation........unfortunately though it is not that uncommon for an inspector to try to add stuff during the final inspection. It is usually just easier to do what they want instead of holding up the CO.

JLP - I'll try to quickly answer a couple of your questions. The main building code I'm used to is the 2017 Ohio Building Code (OBC) with is based on the 2015 IBC but "Ohioized" Yes, code "language" can be very confusing, even when your used to reading it. The same word, or similar sounding wording can have totally different meaning in different context. There is also a lot of referencing back and forth between different section and different codes. The main codes are building, mechanical, plumbing, electrical, ANSI 117 (ADA) (there are dozens more for different specialties) Every code is used on every commercial building. The OBC is around 600 pages, NEC is probably close to that, plus the other adds up to close to 1500 pages of "stuff" to comply with.

Occupant load is based on building Square Foot and use. Every SF needs accounted for with a use and occupant/SF. If you occupant load is a lot different then the calculated you can ask for an "actual" occupant load to be used. I would guess your calculated load to be around 25-30. This occupant load would affect your exit requirements, and restroom count and type. There are different thresholds for one having 1 exit (under 49 for a 'B' use IIRC.) Also different thresholds for restroom quantity and type, single unisex restroom or separate mens & womans depending on building use group.

Fire suppression can be triggered by occupant load, but it most commonly required based on fire area (over 12,000 SF per area) or use group (H or Hazardous use) Occupant load trigger is usually only meet in assembly uses. That's a complete non issue with the size and occupant load of your building, unless you plan on storing barrels of flammable liquids, or lots of full propane tanks. Of course there are lots of exceptions and special requirements that adjust all of those numbers.

Fresh air requirement is a calculation that is based on SF to determine occupant load (different from the earlier number as this is in the mechanical code) times ?? divided by ??? = ??. I have not clues the number as I don't have the code in front of me. Fresh air requirements are separate of combustion air requirements.

As for electrical, it wold depend on you local. Here, the service entrance needs installed by a licensed contractor, and then inspected by the utility. Commercially a registered contractor needs to do everything, but in most places for residential the home owner can do the work after the SE.

I just want to make sure I'm clear here, I'm not knocking how your doing your project. If it were me I would not have gotten a permit for a commercial building either (although I would have waited until I was done to put it on the WWW) I would have sub'd out a lot of the labor consuming work just because I don't have the extra time.

95% of people could build what you are doing and never worry about a permit other then local zoning. It's the 5% of people that would be in a world of hurt if they tried it and got caught that George & I worry about. The average smith that sells even a few $$$ worth of product every year could get a way with a lot and be under the radar, a school on the other hand could raise some flags. I do remember someone on here a few years ago asking question because he was having difficulty with his inspector and some code issues when trying to open a trade school. He might have been in Canada???

Once again, the main thing is COMMERCIAL vs RESIDENTIAL. Most of the stuff I talked about does not apply 95% of the time for residential (**there's always disclaimers, unless your local enforces all residential codes)

I'm sure I missed something, but it's been a long day. In a nut shell, the code SUCKS. It take hours to go through all of the different aspects of a building for a complete code analysis......and the the plans examiner always finds some obscure section that requires something.....like gloss paint in restrooms (yes that's a thing I have been called out on)

 

[George N. M.]

Slag is correct about building inspectors not being above the law.  In fact, a building or other code inspector is not supposed to have very much discretion.  Either something meets the requirements of the appropriate code or not.  There should be very little of "Well, it meets the spirit of the code."  The discretion applies to the governing body, e.g. City/Town Council, County Commissioners, State Legislature, when the code is adopted.  Sections in the model code can be deleted or modified or new language added.

I was involved in a controversy with adopting a new edition of a code on the subject of when fire sprinklers had to be retrofitted to an existing building.  The new edition of the code had a pretty low bar of what triggered having to install sprinklers.  IIRC the local compromise was that the trigger point became when renovations cost 50% of the fair market value of the building.  That was done at the governing body level.

If a building inspector is being a jerk or going off in some odd direction or is flat wrong there is usually an appeal process, sometimes to the local governing body, sometimes to a board of appeals, sometimes a designated official.  There is often an appeal or variance process when a code has not kept up with technology.  Alternative building methods are an example, e.g. rammed earth or other methods that are not brick, stone, or wood.  Also, it can happen that a local jurisdiction has not adopted the most recent edition of a particular code which addressed some new technology. 

Jen, as I understand it you often can do your own work but it has to be inspected more often (and sometimes at a greater cost) than if it is done by a licensed contractor.  There is sometimes an interplay between contractor licensing and inspections.  Some places don't license all contractors but have more frequent inspections, others are the reverse.

Also, I am glad t see that you have been and are working with the local inspectors.  Too often I have seen situations where out of ignorance or pure cussedness someone hasn't or won't do that and it has often ended in tears.  The expression "You can't fight city hall" has been proven many times.  However, you CAN work with city hall or persuade city hall or, sometimes, sweet talk city hall.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."  

[George N. M.]

To expand on something Tom mentioned and applies to what Thomas mentioned, someone should NOT confuse property classification and rates for property tax purposes with building code classifications or, even, zoning classifications.

Generally, property tax is established by actual use of a property or building, not what building code applied or applies to a particular building or what zoning district it is in.  What qualifies as an, for example, agricultural use will vary from state to state.  Some states have a minimum size for agricultural uses, some require a certain amount of income per year from agricultural uses, and some use a combination of factors to determine a property tax classification.  This issue has come up when a person may build a green house behind their house and derive a significant income from raising some high value crop such as specialized herbs or spices or marijuana (where legal).   The tax question is whether the property is residential with an agricultural accessory use or agricultural use with an accessory residential use. 

Usually, ag property is taxed at a lower rate than residential or commercial property.  So, when it is a close call property tax assessors may often err on the side of what the higher tax classification is.  They are also sensitive to people who try to game the system and try to qualify for a lower tax rate by some minor change in their use, e.g. having 3 instead of 2 horses or claim $X+1 in agricultural income.  

Agricultural or commercial uses may be restricted in some residential areas by zoning laws or private covenants.

Many of these same considerations come up with black smithing.  As Tom says, someone selling a few dollars of ironwork per year is likely to stay under the radar in a lot of ways, taxes, zoning, etc..  However, someone operating on a large scale may attract the attention of various enforcement agencies such as zoning enforcement, the county assessor, home owner associations, the building department, etc..  This also points out the need to keep good relations with your neighbors.  Much local government enforcement is complaint driven.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."  

[ThomasPowers]

Note that how things work in practice in cities can be very different than how things actually work in small rural towns...

Get the local "old boys network" on your side and problems tend to disappear...One reason I'm happy to teach smithing to members of the local fire and police forces...

[jlpservicesinc]

Complaint driven is so true..  

When we first moved here, the house we bought was a foreclosure.. Sadly the house was owned by the son of a neighbor a few doors down..   We did not know this.. 

Because we have horses we needed something for shelter  and the front driveway is the only flat area..  So I started building a modern bolted together timberframe kinda deal..  In 2 days time after starting the build the building inspector was here asking what the H was going on..   I simply explained it and showed him the construction method and then showed him where it was going..   No problem..  He actually told me who lodged the complaint.  Was curious about the method of construction, gave him some instructions on how it was put together and he was all for it. 

Then that was in Oct, Mid October we put in a french drain and while moving a rather smallish rock I walked about 50ft and 30ft in my back felt wonky.. fell to the knees and all that jive..   4 and 5 were toast.   Because I work on my own cars after surgery I did not want to have to get up and down from the ground so bought a lift.. That was in December that I had surgery.. So, in January I bought a lift with 9800lbs capacity and 78" lift..  Perfect for doing the custom turbo work I  was doing at the time.. (NO smithing then just fabrication work).   The  crate was damaged in shipping but took the item anyway.. 

the crate was damaged in shipment but accepted it anyhow figuring I got a really good deal on it and didn't want to chance not getting it.. 

In March the 90day window was coming in for a frieght claim if items were damaged or missing so called my Marital arts students to come over to dig the footings. I was already back to work, but there was no chancing digging 2 holes 8ft deep 2.5ftx2.5ft..   

They came out we dug the holes, I had concrete delivered and a few days later put the 2 post car lift up..  No parts were missing or damaged so was good to go... A few days later the building inspector shows up saying he got a complaint again.  He asked about the lift and I explained the whole situation..   And he then said " My son would love to have one of these".      We talked a few times after that with projects and such and once he saw that I was serious it went smoothly after that. 

The building inspector retired that I knew and a new guy stepped in..  Willy..  he is a great guy..   Anyhow when I started to look at the steel buiding I went and talked with him about it and then a year went by and went and talked with him, then 2 years went by and I went and talked with him and dropped off all the paper work..   Another year went by and I ordered the building and it was sheduled for delivery.. I called him and asked if the paper work for the building was ready and then we had to go back the year to dig it out..   Turned out the fee was never paid but the paper work was turned in..  I said no problem, I'll come pay the fee.. 

He said no good..  The structure and chain of command has changed and I need 3 more peoples signatures, and need to contact the zoning board and highway department and fire chief.. 

He said he was going to the meeting so he could get the zoning board signature, but that I would have to go and get other 2.. which I did that day.. Paid the fee and there it is.. 

Over the years talking with him,  and the time he stopped by he said right off about the level of work that was being done.  

Turns out he had stopped by several times while I was working on it but not home and he went and looked..  The last time I had seen him, he stopped in to say what a great job that was being done and asked me about how I was going to finish it.. I said ladders, he chuckled and said good luck with a smile.. Really nice guy..  I saw him that day and it turns out He has brain cancer so was the last time I saw him..  He retired from the building inspection part.. Turns out his wife died from cancer too.   Really nice people. 

He actually knew what I was going to be doing with the building and using it as a teaching center..  I went and asked all my immediate neighbors before construction if they minded me putting the building where it is and they were ok with it.  I told them I have 2 options but that the place it is now is my preference..  they said that is fine.. 

The neighbor right across the street from it, so he and his family are looking right at it, stopped me and told me what a great looking building and so excited to seeing it come to life.. 

The neighbor on the other side of the building moved in just as construction started.. We didn't converse much at all and it wasn't till this past fall that we connected and he borrowed a tool to do the brakes on his wifes car. 

Anyhow,  we will see..   

[arkie]

Like everyone here says...."Take 'em some bottle openers, or maybe donuts..."!

Good luck with all these goins' on.