jlpservicesinc Posted December 6, 2020 Author Share Posted December 6, 2020 So, next topic.. It is time for the 1000 gallon propane tank.. I am thinking overkill as always.. the only items connected eventually will be the heater 125K btu and 3 or 4 gas forges eventually.. The primary pipe size is what I am discussing here as the pipe from the tank to the shop needs to be a certiain size both for code and supply pressure. How many BTU's would a single forge be dual burner? Frosty? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted December 6, 2020 Share Posted December 6, 2020 For the school a 1000 gal propane tank is not over kill. At ESSA they have a 1000 gal underground tank feeding 5 forges. Depending upon classes they have to order propane a couple of times a year and having that large of a tank they take advantage of special price deals and when propane is the cheapest. I think the lowest it got to was 35% in the tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted December 6, 2020 Share Posted December 6, 2020 Half a million or better would be my guess. Mikey might have a better idea, BTUs isn't something I think about. I'd have to do something like time to heat water. IIRC 1 btu will raise 1 gallon of water 1 degree per minute. Or is it per hour?, I'd have to look it up then rig a tank and time it. If on the other hand you're trying to calculate fuel usage, I can figure that by running a couple burners on a full 40lb. tank for say 5 hours and seeing what it takes to refill. It's too cold here right now, even my 100lb. tank would start freezing up in less than an hour of burn time. Even though it's warmed up to 15f. Maybe someone where it's warmer has consumption numbers or wouldn't mind running the test. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted December 6, 2020 Author Share Posted December 6, 2020 IFCW.. I would agree.. But most I talk with say a 500 is plenty.. Upsizing later would not bode well from a budget stand point so hope to size lines and stuff properly now. Frosty, I was thinking that 892 according to the chart would give me a supply line of 1.25" to the building. The run is about 50ft give or take.. But by the time you figure up the wall and such i'm using 60ft as the length. I have included a PDF of the line I am looking at using to go to the building. a40f3110-62ae-4d9e-90f5-daef9cfa1bd1.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted December 7, 2020 Share Posted December 7, 2020 I'll have to get back, there's a lot of reading to do here. At a glance though, the PDF only lists up to 10psi. for the primary regulator. You might get away with that on the forge circuits with a needle valve final adjustment at each burner but you'll have to have a secondary regulator for the heater and other appliances you may install. I see where this book gets confusing but it's main market is aimed at heating so everything is measured in BTUs. I see 60' of 1 1/4" @ 10psi deliver 9,220k BTUs worth of propane. 9 million and change BTUs. A forge heats and maintains a chamber to call it 2,600f. I don't know how to calculate or even guestimate that. I could maybe get a CFM guesstimate with the mig tip orifice dia. and psi. but I'm not much at the math. I don't have a burner I run below 10psi. Just because the NARB twins are stable at 1psi. doesn't mean it's a sustainable operating pressure. At anything under 12psi. the burner block overheats and it starts burning back in about 1.5 hours. I typically run them around 16psi. + and they're happy for as long as I want to forge. I'd have to call the Home-Flex people and find out what the high pressure really is and the gas company to see if they have primary regulators to match. I can't really opine the above is or might be necessary, I don't know what psi range the burners you're going to use operate under. It it's as simple as the 1 1/4" pipe doesn't have enough carrying capacity then the 1 1/2" certainly would, it's a dramatic increase. This is beyond me without having to do a lot more reading and conversion chart locating. Even then I'm just some guy on the internet who isn't a professional. You're opening a professional school and will have to meet codes and satisfy your insurance carrier. I'll do what I can but don't quote me or anybody who isn't a pro. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 7, 2020 Share Posted December 7, 2020 Weigh a BBQ tank before and after a timed run and then use the BTU's per pound x pounds used / time. (Of course this differs depending on the mix in the tank.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George N. M. Posted December 7, 2020 Share Posted December 7, 2020 Jennifer: Are you planning to vent the propane forges to the outside? If so, are you going to use individual chimneys or to a common manifold with one common large chimney/vent? Also, what size venting pipe are you planning to use? Thx. "By hammer and hand all arts do stand." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted December 7, 2020 Author Share Posted December 7, 2020 Frosty, there will be one high pressure line with a regulator at the split on the shop would be ideal for me. I might have to run 2 lines at the tank which would be a bummer. 1 high pressure and one heating circuit. . I forgot where or how I arrived at that number after I looked.. Actually now that I think about it, they give a representative figure in the literature.. Adding up all the demands for supply line size with minimal pressure drop. This figure seemed to fit closely to what would be a guestimate. 125K heater, and 4 gas forges of 3 burner design. George the gas forges will be eventually vented through side vents on the building. This will have to be looked at closer when the time comes.. I'm a big fan of regenerative heating. There is a certain percentage of air turn over that has to happen to maintain air flow as you know and just wrote this for other benefit.. Gas forges won't be used for at least a year or 2 in a closed winter shop environment. I will use primarily Coal and wood initially.. This is easy to account for with wall vents and intakes from outside directly connected to the blowers.. The free flowing air will both be pulled up and through the blowers on high demand and will also feed through the openings at lower demand. Also there will be an air induction unit that I will customize that will piggy back on top of the IR heater.. This will help heat the air some as it works through over the heater. Because the building is so tight getting ample air in will have to be accounted for. I'm extremely concerned with the costs of heating such a large space and reason I went with the 38R roof and 28R walls.. I will certainly know more as time rolls on and actually get heat in there and such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted December 7, 2020 Share Posted December 7, 2020 They have high efficiency whole house gas heaters that use plastic pipe for exhaust gasses. You may want to look into the same thing for the propane heater for the shop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkie Posted December 7, 2020 Share Posted December 7, 2020 To concur with Glenn, we have a high efficiency propane furnace for a three bedroom house, and indeed, the vent is just plain ole PVC pipe, about 2" or 3", haven't crawled up on the roof to measure. It blew my mind that the exhaust was cool enough to run through the PVC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted December 7, 2020 Author Share Posted December 7, 2020 Hi Glenn, Here is the heater I am getting. https://www.reverberray.com/products/commercial-industrial/low-intensity-infrared-radiant-tube-heaters/hl3-series-2/ liogt3_rev10211 (1).pdf liohl3_v814.pdf lbhl3_hl3_series_brochure.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted December 7, 2020 Author Share Posted December 7, 2020 Arkie, forced hot air or water? Also square footage? One of the things I had to really look at is how things are heated. Conduction, convection. Anyhow, with this type of heater, the objects are heated.. What this means is for me that items will be warm to the touch vs cold.. So many times in larger places that use radiators or forced hot air it takes a long time for the items to feel warm. The idea is that once the items are warmed then convection takes over and warms the air. There are a bunch of great ways to heat now.. Just not in the budget and timing is everything.. I looked at a propane water heater that was 98% efficient. It used a water pump and did the in floor heating.. Problem was the extra expense and then not having a solid plan of where things would be mounted. I might have to cut into the floor at some point for power hammer foundations. I did contemplate installing the tubes with a manifold but it's more complex then just installing it. ideally it was recommended that I install 4 or 6 heat zones since the water enters and it's pretty cool by the time it comes out the other end. Anyhow, if I had my choice it would be geothermal and looked into this as well.. for a building my size they wanted 120K for the install.. It was 8k for the heat pump unit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted December 7, 2020 Share Posted December 7, 2020 Wait, the shop is going to be heated? What ever happened to making your students freeze their tootsies off?!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted December 7, 2020 Author Share Posted December 7, 2020 I save that for the select students.. The best of the best who forge in sarongs. SFT.. Hoorah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 7, 2020 Share Posted December 7, 2020 (and crocs!---student of mine.) Though I have noticed back during Ohio summers that a heavy layer of sweat attenuates scale damage quite a bit in shirtless forging... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted December 7, 2020 Author Share Posted December 7, 2020 Lol, this is a clean freindly kind of forum and since my humor is not exactly stellar over long distance.. I won't go in that direction at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted December 7, 2020 Share Posted December 7, 2020 The last time I attempted forging shirtless, a piece of coal popped in the forge and sent a glowing shard down the cleft where my back changes name, if you know what I mean. I have never danced so well, before or since. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 7, 2020 Share Posted December 7, 2020 Actually Bib overalls work nicely for air flow and drop through situations. My Mother tells me that I remind her of her Father wearing them. He died in a farming Accident when she was in grade school. She was born in a farmhouse with no electricity; one of her chores was refilling the kerosene lamps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deimos Posted December 7, 2020 Share Posted December 7, 2020 You have not danced until you get white hot steel somewhere tender, get one between my toes ones (cheap working shoes do not prove any protection when you cut metal for hours) When I work in my shed now I wear clogs (I am Dutch, and they are the best kind of shoes ever) very easy to kick of when something start hurting, and you can drop 600 lbs. everywhere on them. And with my size 47 (13 for the USA) I could also use them to sail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted December 7, 2020 Share Posted December 7, 2020 Wynken, Blynken, and Nod one night Sailed off in a wooden shoe-- Sailed on a river of crystal light, Into a sea of dew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 7, 2020 Share Posted December 7, 2020 Hey; I also wear a 47; picked up 4 pair of German combat boots brand new at the fleamarket for US$3 a pair because evidently nobody in El Paso has that big of feet. I could never find a set of klompen that would accept my high arches. John; perhaps Tullamore Dew had something to do with their trip before hand too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted December 7, 2020 Share Posted December 7, 2020 I also have high arches (like a Gothic cathedral, according to one doctor); otherwise I would very much like to try a set of klompen. Pennsylvania blacksmith Jymm Hoffman somewhat famously wears klompen to which he applies horseshoe-like metal wear plates on the bottom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deimos Posted December 7, 2020 Share Posted December 7, 2020 Hold the phone, why an I using the English word and you are using the Dutch word , much confused. To fill out a pair of clogs you must have a foot that looks like a scared cat. You do know you have them one size to big? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted December 7, 2020 Share Posted December 7, 2020 1 minute ago, Deimos said: Hold the phone, why an I using the English word and you are using the Dutch word , much confused. Because we're trying to sabotage the conversation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deimos Posted December 7, 2020 Share Posted December 7, 2020 Ik snap de hint Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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