JLP Blacksmith Teaching Center.

[jlpservicesinc]

Drill, tap and bolt could be an option..  Just faster to weld it..  the arms are going to slide out from under the heater and be about 3ft long..  Just a little support for when the plenum is on..  Maybe help to extend it another 3 ft past the rest.. 

 

 

[BillyBones]

Jennifer, i assume you know how to ohm out the wires. Keep in mind that you are also looking for one with high resistance. If that heater was kept stored someplace that was prone to moisture it could be corrosion inside the wiring. 

I see a label that says "Beckett" on the motor. Is the motor from a Beckett furnace or is the whole thing a Beckett? If it is a Beckett you can go to their website and they have a bunch of tech info about their furnaces there. Everything from manuals, trouble shooting, parts, to how to read the date of manufacture. 

Edit: Missed a whole page of replies, please disregard the above.

Edited March 3, 2021 by BillyBones
Not smart enough to follow the entire thread.

[MarcBaldwin]

3 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

I've had a week of temps over 44 degC and that was cool compared to friends to the west that were at 52 degC.

That sounds like my A.O. here in Palm Desert...

Pic from last August. 

It’s on the way back up already. “Winter” is over. Time to put away the long sleeve shirts for the year. 

[jlpservicesinc]

here's one with me in the demo shop with doors fully opened..  Was forging a 5lbs wrought iron hammer.. 

Here is from yesterday and does not include windchill..  Was 0F when I got up out doing horses was fun. 

[jlpservicesinc]

Just about done with the heater..  Started to make the afterburner..   

Brain should be in tomorrow. 

I also ordered some insulated pipe so that will free up how close to an object it can be. 

the fuel filter won't fill up.. It stays at the same height..  does this mean the supply line is to small? 

I'm using 1/4" ID but can step up to 3/8" pretty easy. 

 

[Old Crew]

Here in Texas at my place it got down to -1 a couple weeks ago and everything came to a halt for a week.  Most central Texans thought civilization had come to an end.  I am fairly handy and was mostly un-affected by the freeze and power problems. I feel for the people that are not equipped to deal with problems.

I like your solution for a large heater on a budget. You want heat      make something work on the cheap. If I lived in a place where coooooold was a common problem I would probably have built a home brewed heater for my shop similar to yours which burned used oil if possible .  What you really want to do and what you can make happen are seldom the same. So you make do and you did good.

David

[jlpservicesinc]

Here is a little video..  

Old Crew.. Your skill set, sets you apart..  Lotta hard work to get there though.. 

Warmer weather folks certainly do take a hit when it becomes unseasonal.. 

Last year we had a few days that were -14F and I was out there working at 730am..  

it's the snow that makes my work miserable. 

The heater is just temporay till I can resume work in the shop.. Of course spring is here.. Why didn't I think about this at the beginning of winter..  duh.. 

IF this works as well as it seems it will, I will be making a portable oil burner heater too..  The largest factor is, it has to be able to come apart for cleaning..   I all ready have the design in my head.. 

Thanks..   

[Old Crew]

I had a pipe freeze inside the wall of my house. Plumbing pipe was on the outside a north facing  wall and the insulation was on the inside of the wall. So not much between the pipe and the cold. I had left faucets on in a couple spots just not the kitchen sink . So when there was no water the sink I put a diesel torpedo heater outside on the wall blowing on the stucco. A while later water is flowing from the sink slowly I look outside ad water is ruing out of the wall

I cut a 2'X3' hole in the stucco and fixed the broken pipe  in the wall dried it out and insulated it all while at about 5 degrees outside. But the heater was blowing

Heater good!!     -14 bad

While work and everything was shut down I went down in my garage under my house (with heaters) and worked on building my 505 cubic inch port injected FE motor.

Building things and making things are some of the best things in life I think. Seeing It  then making it happen

Like Your School!

[Dave F]

"...the fuel filter won't fill up.. It stays at the same height..  does this mean the supply line is to small? 

I'm using 1/4" ID but can step up to 3/8" pretty easy. "

No, it's fine -- its a volume in = volume out sort of thing, and the pump will only suck air out until the fuel gets up to the siphon tube inside the filter, then it will suck fuel.  A bigger supply hose won't change the geometry of the siphon tube out of the filter.

[Pierre M]

For the filter to be full it would have to be lower than the fuel supply or have some sort of lifter pump between supply and filter that would double as a check valve...

in essence I think the way you have it set up it will ask the pump to prime at each start and push the air through the nozzle.

Probably fine unless once the control "brain box" is in place, the time to evacuate the air and then fire is greater than the time the control allows for lack of ignition before tripping... in other words, if the control allows x seconds for flame sensor to provide input signal confirming ignition but the air pocket takes x+ seconds to be eliminated, you may have problems...

Generally oil tanks supply line and filter are at the bottom so gravity keeps themfull so when heat call happens, the pump does not have to push air out before fuel getting to it.

also, not a good idea to repeatedly run pumps dry since fuel oil also acts as a lubricant

[jlpservicesinc]

Dave F.   comment got me thinking about pressure vs vacuum..  And it made complete sense with Dave's help.. 

Pressure can fill the filter full but vacuum has to create enough negative pressure before it will suck.. 

It's interesting to me because I would think that once there is enough vacuum that the fluid would remain at that height, if there is enough supply volume. (hence why I think the line is a little to small)..


The fuel is not syphoning out of the filter when not in use.. Even when full, it just goes down bit by bit eventually ending up at that exact level each time.. 

Its something new since I put the bypass in..  I think it's feeding more fuel thru then it is taking in within reason. and couple that with vacuum to draw the fuel up. 

If the fuel was syphoning out, a check valve would be in the works immediately. 

I had thought after reading about the burners and the pumps that by running it in bypass mode it nearly doubles the lift height and also self primes the pump.. 

More food for thought.. 

[Dave F]

The syphon tube I was mentioning was the draw tube in the center of the filter bowl. If there are no leaks in the system, and the lower part of the filter cartridge isn't clogged,  the pump won't be able to pull any air out of the bowl once the fuel gets up to the level of the opening of the outlet tube in the bowl.

I think pressure still wouldn't drive all of the air out of the filter-- once the level got the outlet tube opening, there'd still be a bubble of air trapped in the top.  Increased pressure could compress it, but to eliminate the bubble you'd need to bleed the air out somewhere.

With the filter above the tank, if there are leaks, you'll pump a mix of air and fuel to the extent of the leak, but the level in the bowl will remain the same.

If the inlet hose is too small, vacuum will go up in the bowl and flow rate will go down, but the level will remain the same as the outlet opening.

Oh wait--as the filter clogs up, (or as you increase flow rates), the level could rise on the outside of the filter material to dynamically balance the flow through the filter material.  

[jlpservicesinc]

5 hours ago, Dave F said:

Oh wait--as the filter clogs up, (or as you increase flow rates), the level could rise on the outside of the filter material to dynamically balance the flow through the filter material.  

Which is why I was thinking the ID of the line might be on the smallish size.. Going up to 3/8" will increase flow rate..

Nice thing is, it's easy enough to try it's just time..

Unthread a few fittings, put in the new fittings, Solder up the new fittings for pickup tube install, cut new hose to length and there you have it.  Easy peasy.. 

I ordered the ducting pipe today installed the double wall pipe for the chimney..  I installed an elbow at the bottom so I can pivot it down near the heater for moving it around. 

I also dug out the panels to look at getting the sheet metal weather sheilds on. 

[Dave F]

From your video it looks like you have more than adequate flow--that pump looks designed to pull several feet of head through tens of feet of pipe.  What are you looking for with increased flow?   You could run your bypass line into a bucket and time how long it takes to pump a gallon.  I'd bet a newbie s-hook that as-configured, it could drain your whole tank in less than 20 minutes.

[jlpservicesinc]

Filter specs:

 

• Goldenrod® general purpose fuel tank filter for farm, construction, and industrial applications
• For use with common fuels including regular and unleaded gasoline, diesel fuel, gasohol, ethanol, and various fuel oils; related additives including methyl, ethyl, and isopropyl alcohol; and biodiesel blends up to 20%
• Replaceable element removes microscopic particles of contaminants (rust, sand, dirt, scale, and lint) as small as 10 microns
• See-Thru translucent polymer bowl allows for visual monitoring of fuel flow, is alcohol and impact resistant, and stands up to harsh weather conditions
• Heavy duty zinc die-cast top cap with 3/4" NPT pipe fittings provides durability and an excellent bowl to top cap seal
• Easy-to-use sediment drain valve at bottom of bowl
• Maximum recommended flow rate is 25 gpm
• Gravity flow rate is approximately 5 gpm with a 24" head
• Working pressure up to 150 psi
• Works well by itself or in combination with a 496-3/4 WATER-BLOCK® filter for greater filtering efficiency and longer element life
• Includes a top cap, a gasket, a bowl, and an element
• Made in the U.S.A.

pump and furnace pdf

A2-VA-7116-B20_Ed4-jan2020.pdf 30173_IOM_HML-Rev H.pdf

[Dave F]

Looks like plenty of flow -- the biggest burner in the spec burns 0.85 GPH, (=1 .8oz/min =0.8cc/sec) while the pump is capable of delivering 3 GPH to the nozzle, and the filter can do 25 GPM.  I didn't see where it specifies the bypass flow, but compared to the filter's 25GPM, I don't think it's anywhere close to the filter capacity--just eyeballing it from your video, I'd guess <2GPM or less than 10%.

Out on the internet somewhere I remember seeing "Nothing too strong ever broke" You should have no troubles with this tank/filter/pump setup keeping up with your burner.  

[jlpservicesinc]

Ok so today the filter filled up all within about 1/4" from the top..  

I wasn't concerned with the filter flow,, I matched all the components for what I thought with research should work.. 

Was more of a "Why" moment.. 

so there is the updated stack,  got some of the sheet metal work installed. 

I ran it for 4 hrs today while I worked on it..  

Still have the new brain to install..  

Tomorrow I'll see about finishing the burner shroud and then look at getting the after burner split into 2, 12" diameter connection points for the vent hose I ordered.. 

[Dave F]

The air has to go somewhere.  Maybe after a while the fuel vapor can displace some of the air and pushes the excess vapor out through the filter outlet.

[jlpservicesinc]

Dave, thanks for all your help..  

Not sure..  I haven't actually taken the filter apart..  I usually do that kind of thing to see whats inside, but not this time.. 

I unscrewed the bowl and turned the filter to see if it would loosen and then put it all back together. 

Sadly I just found a waterblock one for 5.00 cheaper.. Go figure..  

It is interesting how the filter was full when it was just normal, then over about 2 hours it went down to the level I questioned and then today after 3 hrs it creeped up just just below the upper cap.. 

I got nothing..  LOL.. 

Well, other than it's looking pretty groovy..    

[Frosty]

Jennifer: Put your trained mechanic self on the job. Treat it like you have a diesel fuel pump air locked. Do you have a diesel pressure bleeder? If so lift the pick up line out of the fuel tank and hook up the pressure bleeder and fill the filter glass.

Or you can do it the way us poor boys had to. Unscrew the glass, fill it with fuel oil and screw it back on. Remember to oil the gasket.

Are you SURE the fuel oil hasn't softened some of the propane residue and its restricting the pickup? Did you put a water trap in the tank?

Frosty The Lucky.

[Apple Duck]

Now that is one weird looking compressor!

 

 

JK JK JK,  but seriously, is it working? Reason I ask is that some of the trucks I have driven with the see through housings- - -when the filter is new the housing wont fill up completely. As fuel is run through the filter and it gets dirty and clogged, then the fuel level rises and fills the reservoir up all the way. We used this as a visual indicator as to the filters status until it came time to change it.   Just an idea, otherwise I don't know what in the heck is wrong with that compressor.

[jlpservicesinc]

Frosty.  It was full, then emptied, then came back up..  It all happened when I switched from single inlet to bypass..  With the single inlet the flow was a lot less.. With the bypass it flows a lot more fuel..  If it was air trapped then bleeding it would be a thing, but there was no air leaks to begin with..  

I've never seen it before.. But then again, I've never had a setup like this.  the best explanation I can come up with is was pointed out before of the pump is sucking vs pressurized.. 

It's about 1/2" from the top now, ran it for 2 hrs. 

Apple duck..  That was funny..  Yup strangest compressor I have ever seen too. 

[Frosty]

You're bypassing the filter to get it to run? Is the bypass line larger? 

I'm not going to go through a whole list of ideas, I've only been skimming the thread and I don't want to repeat things for no good reason. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[jlpservicesinc]

No, on the oil pump there are 3 ports..    2 inlets and 1 bypass..      Typically the 1 inlet is used and the fuel oil is circulated within the pump and fed to the nozzle only..  Only 1 line is used.. 

with a bypass setup,  the main inlet and bypass port are used and 2 lines are used..  An intake line which put oil to the nozzle and the bypass line which returns unused fuel back to the tank.. (much like modern fuel injection used in cars and such)

Because the fuel is returned to the tank instead of circulated within the pump itself like with the 1 intake line setup, there is a much higher volume of fuel ran thru the loop (tank, filter, intake, bypass, tank. )

As mentioned early the dual line system increases amount of fluid running thru the filter and makes the oil pump self priming. 

[jlpservicesinc]

So, just an update on the heater..  

I wanted to have it work like a regular furnace with built in safety features..  That way the risk of putting 21 gallons of fuel oil everywhere is minimized.. If it doesn't fire when on command it just shuts off..  

Since the brain quit working last week i was just running it barebones and directly wired..  (have the new brain box and ordered a new fan switch and wireless thermostat)

I ordered the new brain which is a smart one (Honeywell R7284U-1004)   diagnostics built in and after doing a lot of video watching and lots of reading it turns out the wiring in the manual for the furnace is "Wrong".. With capital W.. 

It does not use a Fan control board like shown in the manual..  Sadly the schematics on the cover are barely legible because that is where the real wiring is.. 

So, I ended up doing a search for Olsen furnaces and this lead to glimpses of how they were setup wiring wise by watching the videos and stopping them when the control was in view.. 

The new Brain box is designed for Honeywells smart system and Envirocon.. So can be a bit finicky.  

I also learned that there were extra wires going to the fan limit switch that energize a built in heater unit that is not needed.. So I removed all those wires and cleaned up the wiring loom.. 

After this I bent the dial of the fan switch so it was at 50F vs 100F when it was in the cold position and move the switches so they came on when it went over the 50f..  So, now the old switch for the fan comes on like it's supposed to and both the auto function and manual function work..  I did order a new switch and it should be here by the weekend. 

Not sure when the thermostat will ship, but for the time being I can just leave it on.. 

Today was the first time putting it pointed in the new school and within 1.5hrs it was warmer dramatically compared to outside and was easily 30F warmer inside from when it started. 

It's been easliy 10 or 15F colder inside then outside on most days..  The insulation works both ways.. 

So, tomorrow will be the first day I put the portable heat on for the new shop other than a test..  

I ordered a resettable 120V hour meter too, so I will be able to know exactly how long a full tank of fuel lasts and keep track of maintenance and such. 

Sadly the fan cover I made is to close to the blower and it restricts the intake of the blower to much..  I figured it would be close flow wise but to much resistance.. I'll need to add a top section that sticks up.