D.Rotblatt Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 29 minutes ago, Frosty said: It's probably NOT calcite then. We REALLY need a "Slapping my head" emoji. Head slapping only if you find it entertaining I'm really excited about giving this a try though! Unfortunately I'm heading out of town for a few days next week, so It might be a few weeks until we see how it works in a forge. Hopefully it'll be setting up while I'm away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 5, 2019 Author Share Posted March 5, 2019 10 hours ago, D.Rotblatt said: Hopefully it'll be setting up while I'm away. You have a forge that sets itself up while you're away!?! Are you selling plans? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Rotblatt Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 58 minutes ago, Frosty said: Are you selling plans? I’ll let the forge know you’re interested, it takes care of its own posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 5, 2019 Author Share Posted March 5, 2019 23 hours ago, J.P. Hall said: At some point you need to team up with the guy prototyping burner intake heads with a 3d printer: That guy would be "Another FrankenBurner", see post immediately preceding yours. Don't you just hate it when you do that? I know I sure do, it's a good thing I'm used to making those kinds of mistakes. He's still developing the burner intake but we've been talking about putting them on multiple outlet burners for a while. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another FrankenBurner Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 On 3/4/2019 at 10:52 AM, Another FrankenBurner said: I don't believe a smaller jet induces more or less air at a given pressure. It adds more fuel. I am that guy, yep. Though, in regards to me being a good team member, did anyone read what I posted? I just did and it made me laugh. More fuel out of a smaller jet? What I meant to say: I don't think that a smaller jet induces significantly more/less air at a given pressure. By going to a larger jet, the air induced will be similar while the fuel will be increased. If you have an oxidizing flame, this is good. If you have a reducing flame, you want less fuel for the volume of air which means a smaller jet may be good. I think of it as the jet changing volume of fuel, not volume of air. Nozzle/outlet, mix tube length, inlet geometry, back pressure, choke position, jet position, and fuel pressure can all change air volume. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinkertim Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 5 hours ago, Another FrankenBurner said: I am that guy, yep. Phew! I thought I'd got it wrong! I was working on the fact that if the pressure in the line is the same in both cases, then a big nozzle will flow more fuel than a small nozzle, but was thinking that you had more experience in this particular field so I must have made a mistake. I had been pondering it offline, and was going to post up a query about your statement, but you beat me to it. I was working on the premise that difference between using a 90 jet and a 110 jet would be their rich-to-lean range, with the 90 jet giving you more lean range and the 110 jet giving you more rich range. That said, I wanted to test both to see which worked best in my setup with all the other factors that would be involved as well. Thanks for de-confusing me AFB. Catch you later. Tink out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 6, 2019 Author Share Posted March 6, 2019 43 minutes ago, tinkertim said: Phew! I thought I'd got it wrong! Don't worry, it isn't too late we'll find something. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another FrankenBurner Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 1 hour ago, tinkertim said: Thanks for de-confusing me AFB. No problem, it's the least I could do after throwing the confusion grenade in there. I think your thoughts on range shift are probably accurate. I am not experienced with the AMAL, other than a little research. There is a possibility that the bigger jet is too big and the flame can not be tuned out of rich. If you can get to an oxidizing flame with the smaller jet, it is worth trying the larger jet. It depends on your goal. An oxidizing flame is not useful to me, I would rather have a larger jet for it's benefits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.P. Hall Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 On 3/5/2019 at 1:22 PM, Frosty said: Don't you just hate it when you do that? I know I sure do, it's a good thing I'm used to making those kinds of mistakes. I'd say I also hate it, but I don't not do it enough to reliably compare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 6, 2019 Author Share Posted March 6, 2019 So much for pretending some level of normality to salve the new guy's feelings. You're going to fit right in here. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinkertim Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 OK Owen ( @basher ) et al. I've done some initial testing of my Amal 3/4" Propane injector (with a default 110 jet), to try and get some idea of the difference in sound level between the Multi-port Ribbon-style burner (NARB), and the Single-port burner configuration when used in the same forge at the same Venturi and PSI settings withing a few minutes of each other. I used an Android App on my old Galaxy S2 called "Sound Meter" to take sound pressure readings. The microphone was setup ~1metre away from the forge in all measurements, and I let it take an average reading over ~10 seconds for each measurement. With each burner config I did measurements at 5psi and 10psi, just to get a comparison. NARB at 5psi = 64db, at 10psi = 67db Single-Port at 5psi = 70.5db, at 10psi = 74.5db At each psi, the Ribbon burner was considerably quieter (where a 3db increase corresponds to a doubling of the sound pressure), with the Single-port configuration being over 4 times as loud as the Ribbon burner at the same settings. I was quite surprised that it was so marked, but it was interesting doing some back-to-back testing. It's confirmed to me that I'll be concentrating on NARBs in the future, as it is not just quieter, but seemed to give a more even heating effect within the forge. The Amal Venturi was set as shown in this picture. Video clips: MultiPort_5psi_64db https://youtu.be/xJiSyTQ0f1Y MultiPort_10psi_67db https://youtu.be/UrH1AaiS9k0 SinglePort_5psi_70p5db https://youtu.be/19BUpZXBtwU SinglePort_10psi_74p5db https://youtu.be/vSaX-Rp3dRo Tink Out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 Great job and thanks for the videos.. That is really great info.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 9, 2019 Author Share Posted March 9, 2019 How long had the burner been running during the first video, Tim? I know video cameras make it hard to judge color but your forge looks SCREAMING HOT! Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basher Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 Thanks for that Tim. It looks like you are running your burner rich (at least mine would be with that choke setting) ... So there is definitely a difference in sound...hard to tell what that means in real world. I will go out and take a reading of my burners to get an idea of what 6 or 7 db really means. I am going to experiment with bigger burners and multiple ones turned down as well and but a 1 1/4 and a 1 1/2 burner (I have a 2"!) . My quest is for a quieter forge, I teach with 4 gas forges running and find that I am starting to lose my voice over a few days! I run my burners at between 14 and 28psi (one and two bar). I do wonder if somthing as simple as a metal box around the burner port would make a big diference... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinkertim Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 Well it was an interesting excercise, and I'm certain it wasn't tuned for maximum output, but I was just trying to get some comparative numbers. Sound pressure is measured in Decibels, which is a logarithmic scale, with every 3db increase meaning a doubling in sound pressure. I don't know if the camera on my phone picks up more IR than it should, but after ~10 mins the interior of the forge looked a high yellow and not a "screaming" white heat. The interior of my IFB forge is only a little bigger than a single IFB brick, so it is not a big volume, so I didn't feel the need to take it to higher psi for comparative testing. The reason I posted up the videos was so you could hear the difference in sound (best with headphones). I have taken some audio WAV recordings to analyse later, as I'm curious as to whether the extra volume happens at higher frequencies. I'll post results as and when. Owen, I'm note sure what you mean regarding "a metal box around the burner port". Do you mean inside the forge? Could you sketch something? Also could you also post a piccy of your Amal venturi position (assuming you have a 3/4" one around)? Anyway I hope these observations have helped. Tink Out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 9, 2019 Author Share Posted March 9, 2019 High yellow qualifies as screaming hot or close enough. I'm less interested in the sound variances but it's information and I don't knock anybody for collecting and measuring information. I know more about the project from listening to hammer and anvil than watching it. If listening to the burner at different psi doesn't tell me much I need to rethink what I'm hearing. Yes? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Rotblatt Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 The AMAZING MUSICAL FORGE!!!! Ok, I finished and got the 1/8" hole NARB set up and installed. Here's a video, works great with a few surprises! Definitely gets to heat with a really even flame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gradient Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 Hey guys. I’m new here. Just signed in. I’m building a propane ribbon furnace with a 55 gal oil drum. All new to me. I think I’m going with a blower and vertical ribbons but I have so many questions. 1. Insulation (brick bs cloth and that mortar stuff to bond and keep in place. 2. I’m an optical physicist (designer) and have been playing around with diffuser (mixer?) ideas. I’ll share when I hAve my plans drawn. 3. How to go from input pipe to ribbon nozzles. What should I look for? Calculate? Do I make the sum of the Nobel areas equal to the pipe area? Is there a good way to channel or bridge the open area of the pipe to the many nozzles? 4. I heard that the nozzles should be angled at 30 degrees off center (not pointing radially inwards but off by 30 deg). So would this mean if I have three columns of ribbons, each column needs to be angled a little more? If not then column two would be pointing more that 30 degrees and column three more than that. Get my drift? anyway, I’m glad I found you guys. I’m basing my design off a YouTube video that seemed fairly decent. https://youtu.be/3yEkQhki4IE i hope this is the right link. Thoughts and comments are appreciated. Thanks. Mosul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 11, 2019 Author Share Posted March 11, 2019 2 hours ago, D.Rotblatt said: Here's a video, works great with a few surprises! The home build Hybrid driven burner is beautiful! Your forge is . . . HOT! The singing burner is burning back at least a little I THINK, it sounds like a brazing tip burning back, they'll sing if rastier sounding. It looked like the plenum was getting hot, there appeared to be steam or smoke rising off it. You know if you could consistently make burners sing like that you could sell a "Genuine Fire Alarm." The siren being a fire. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Rotblatt Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 Thanks Frosty! Works great! Out of town tomorrow, so I won't be able to try it till next weekend. 3 minutes ago, Frosty said: The singing burner is burning back at least a little I THINK, it sounds like a brazing tip burning back, they'll sing if rastier sounding. It looked like the plenum was getting hot, there appeared to be steam or smoke rising off it. It's a very resonant sound, much like an organ. It's really loud! Could be a slight bit of burn back, but it stops when it gets hot rather then getting worse. Some sort of resonance is being set up. Odd thing is that my other burner (standard build, crayon sized holes/gun powered) also does it a bit when starting up, seems to sing at around the same pitch. It's the same sized plenum (2" x 3" tubing) but it's longer by 3". The plenum is not getting hot, that's just a bit of steam or smoke from the wax burning off and the refractory curing/drying. The plenum never got so hot I couldn't touch it. At 5lbs the forge got to about 2000F. With the Reil burner in that forge I would weld at around 15lbs. With this I think 10 lbs will do it (same burner is being used as the injector assembly). Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Rotblatt Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 1 hour ago, Gradient said: I’m building a propane ribbon furnace with a 55 gal oil drum Gradient, I'm curious, why use a ribbon burner for a furnace? Generally with a furnace the burner flame is coming in at the bottom, parallel to the side of the crucible and swirls around the furnace around the crucible. I'm curious what advantage you see in using a ribbon burner? Here's a couple of examples of furnaces I built over the years. The bottom one will take a #30 crucible (90 lbs of bronze). The downside of a furnace that big, is that it uses propane so fast it freezes a single cylinder (I have to couple two together or put one in a tub of water). http://www.rotblattsculpture.com/Foundry Pages/furnaces.html The #30 furnace is basically the same construction as my smaller furnace shown in this how to article. If you want more information let me know. http://www.rotblattsculpture.com/Articles/buildingabronzec.html Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinkertim Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 Hi Dan, Your open-air test of your latest multi-hole burner looks really good! Nice even, quiet flames at low PSI and seems to have a good turn-down, but still a screamer at higher PSI. Very nice! Re. the tuneful forge, I think you need to have multiple levers from inside the forge to outside, so as you play the external keys, various holes on the burner get blocked. You have then got the world's first Forge Organ! Congratulations! You just need the striking-anvil chorus as accompaniment! Tink! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrophone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinkertim Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 Wow JHCC! That looks like an epically bonkers musical instrument! The video of the "Gas Organ" sounded quite disturbing . . . . . . I love it! Thanks for that, It just made my day! Tuneful Tink! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 That is really cool.. . We have 2 major gas organs and 3 smaller gas organs right here in the house.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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