D.Rotblatt Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 21 hours ago, Frosty said: I'm shocked, SHOCKED I say! It was a difficult decision...I put it off as long as I could. Spain...tinker with burners...Spain....tinker....tinker in Spain? sigh On that note - anyone know of any good museums with arms and armor exhibits there, or anything else that might be metal related I'd love some suggestions. PM me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 23 hours ago, Another FrankenBurner said: Tired of cracking expensive bricks, we tried something. Rigidized blanket, fully coated in kast o lite. It has several hours of fire time. We are happy so far and making more. We also just faced the first one with matrikote. You were using Morgan Ceramic K 26 bricks weren't you? 21 hours ago, D.Rotblatt said: It was a difficult decision...I put it off as long as I could. Spain...tinker with burners...Spain....tinker....tinker in Spain? sigh On that note - anyone know of any good museums with arms and armor exhibits there, or anything else that might be metal related I'd love some suggestions. PM me! Just another one of life's torments, we'll keep you and the boy in our prayers Dan. I saw something about Spain on the History Channel a little while ago and it was pretty interesting, made me want to visit but I don't recall little things like names and places. If I remember or think of something I'll let you know. I'll try and control my travel envy and not recommend some stinky icky place. Hey, what're friends for? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLAG Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 Mr. Roblatt, I hope many knowledgeable I.F.I. members will give you tips, lots of them SLAG. suggests that you, also contact the commercial officer or someone else at the Spanish embassy, in Washington, or a Spanish consulate located nearer to you. The Spanish federal government tourism minister may help too. SLAG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another FrankenBurner Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 Yes, we were using Morgan Thermal Ceramic K26 bricks. That is what the busted up brick in the picture is. We have now had several of them fail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor84 Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 Hey guys are figured I'd jump in over here now. As you can see I'm almost complete on my "D?" shaped forge (1/8"steel body) . 2600wool, kast-o-lite 30 and ridgidizer is on its way. I'll be 300-350ci interior After reading through this thread I've got a couple concerns (maybe) Ill have two 1" layers of wool ridgidized and then kast-o-lite 3/8"-1/2" thick (of which I have 9#s coming) the floor and doors are 2600 sfb (not Morgan) coated with a layer of kast-o-lite for durability. The interior of the forge will have a 1"x1" lip/rib at each end where the doors meet the body. I was thinking of leaving the portion of the 1"lip that the door meets uncoated to create a gasket of sorts (?) (won't be exposed to normal operation only when doors are opened) After reading this I'm worried about: openings in the front and rear and how that will effect my exaust speed in relation to my NA burner. Mikey you speak about baffles and then doors to control exaust speed.... I am struggling to grasp the baffled concept and what it would look like. (you could say I'm baffled). Does it look like I'm going to run into an issue with my door opening sizes? If my description makes sense in conjunction with the following pics do any of you have thoughts on my build? I'm almost too late to change things now, I guess I could asked before building it to 90%. My doors will sit flat against the body and have that lip/rib as a gasket and aside from that it'll be brick against steel. With the 1/8" steel body and the insulation as described should I be worried about warping? Wow, these photos jump around on me when I try to upload them. I guess theres a bit of a learning curve here, I'm used to the face book format. Here's one I meant to upload it shows the floor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor84 Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 well I decided to attempt a Ultrox (zircopax) top coat as well as the above. I have a tub of Unibond 33, I'm going to try to add the zircopax to this and mix into a slip, test on some scraps then coat the old brick forge and see what happens. I'll update with results later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor84 Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 Hey sorry, disregard my questions on baffled doors and exaust. I went back to the beginning of the thread and I think I have a clear image in my head again. FWIW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted July 17, 2019 Author Share Posted July 17, 2019 "D" forge design Part of the reason we choose a particular forge design is how easy it will be to construct with our own tools and skills; part is what we intend to use it for, and where. "D" shaped forges have flat bottoms, which should rest on a support bench, etc. Therefor this design isn't the best choice for show and tell, as that involves travel. Most "D" forges have a separate top shell, and bottom bed (for their floors); so they are an obvious choice for a clam shell type forge; since its need for a table structure marries well with a lifting device. But the main point of this shape is that it naturally tends to have a wide floor area, as compared to its height. Recently I saw drawing of a "D" shape forge with a top shell in the shape of an upside down "U"! An extreme example of doing the wrong thing the hard way; his forge could be made from a tube, and got to that shape with far less bother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor84 Posted July 19, 2019 Share Posted July 19, 2019 (call me CRAZY) It may be less efficient but my thought with this type of D shape is that one could sit it on bricks in different arrangements and use it like a mankel / armourers hybrid forge with a crane arm like Frosty's shop forge. I have not read much about this concept I'd like to hear your thoughts on an adjustable D shape forge..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted July 19, 2019 Author Share Posted July 19, 2019 My thoughts? The more the merrier! Design is an individual thing. Any design that is thought to serve your purpose is a good design. I only object to designs without thought Try your idea and let us know what YOU think of it; good, bad, or indifferent; you're the only judge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor84 Posted July 19, 2019 Share Posted July 19, 2019 I hear ya Mike, I wasn't sure if there were many concepts like this or if was worth talking about in this thread. I will definitely share my results and thoughts as I attain them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted July 19, 2019 Author Share Posted July 19, 2019 Of course its worth talking about; well worth trying too. Every good idea has to start somewhere; the rest is just follow throgh I tried copying the address for this idler circuit diagram, but instead the diagram appeared here. So, Glenn, would you please delete this drawing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted July 31, 2019 Author Share Posted July 31, 2019 Move it outdoors Most guys have a lot more reasons to move their forge outside their garage doors, then lack of proper ventilation. Hot gas goes up; how many people look up to see if they are overheating, or drying out, the overhead lumber in their garage? How many work wood in their garage? Sawdust (and other combustibles) and hot metal don't belong together. Gas cans for the mower? Carbon monoxide isn't the only hazard a forge in your garage can bring. Safety doesn't need to be a big deal; just walk a few extra steps to the anvil... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted August 4, 2019 Author Share Posted August 4, 2019 Balance in all things The less dedicated to a single purpose equipment is, the less efficient it will be. But using a forge as a casting furnace, or visa versa isn't anything like the drop in efficiency of a lathe-mill-drill, etc. As a perfectionist, it would be natural for me to champion efficiency above all; if writing for industry, that would be correct. But artists have higher priorities, and they are my target audience; whether professional, or only hopeful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted August 7, 2019 Author Share Posted August 7, 2019 Thermal loading transitioned into thermal protection Thermal loading isn't an automatic no-no, if the forge's hot-face layer is a cast refractory like Kast-O-lite 30, or a high alumina kiln shelf, and not too thick; both ceramics have some insulating ability; unlike clay firebrick, which has so little as to be irrelevant. Some people cast a hot-face layer of Kast-O-lite 30 completely around the inside of a tunnel forge, and are quite happy with it; mainly that requires a very hot burner, for fast forge heatup. A mediocre burner is good enough to work well, so long as your cast refractory is fairly insulating; you will just have to wait a few more minutes for the forge to heat. Originally, thermal loading was useful back in the days of natural gas flames. Methane, and even weaker forms of "town gas," such as carbon monoxide rich coal gas mixtures were all that were commercially available to most businesses before the nineteen fifties, when propane and butane came on the market. Lower flame temperatures made thermal loading a smart way to keep forge temperatures fairly even while moving work pieces in and out of heating equipment. Hotter fuels and burner designs have replaced thermal loading as a practical advantage in today's gas forge. On the other hand 3000 degree primary refractory provides protection for secondary layers of insulation. A 1" thick layer of Kast-O-lite 30 will drop the surface temperature of its cold-face side down to 2000 F in a forge running at welding temperatures. Since ceramic fiber insulation is use rated to 2300 F (some as high as 2600 F), a 1/2" refractory layer of Kast-O-lite 30 is usually deemed sufficient to protect ceramic fiber insulation from degrading. Many people use even thinner layers, but this becomes an individual choice between competing costs. 1/2" hot-face refractory layer is the safe bet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted August 8, 2019 Author Share Posted August 8, 2019 You will see Kast-O-lite 30 castable refractory recommended frequently on this forum; mainly because it has excellent insulating ability for a hard refractory layer used as a "hot-face." In gas forges the hot-face layer must stand up to gas flames, We are busy tweaking burner designs to make their flames ever hotter. The floor area should also stand up well to hot flux, which is highly corrosive. The aluminum oxide content in most refractories is the ingredient used to stand up against flux and high flame temperature. The term "high alumina" is commonly used to describe refractories with 67% or higher alumina content. Since alumina has seven times the insulation power of silicon (the other common ingredient), a refractory made up of refined ingredients, rather than powdered clay, is going to have higher utility. Most clay is alumina/silica based, but has much higher silicon content tent than 33%. So why would Kast-O-lite 30 be recommended over tougher refractories, with higher alumina content? Because the Kast-O-lite has tiny silicon bubbles added into the refractory mixture; they leave air holes (voids) throughout the finish casting; and voids make some of the best insulation known. Voids are also wonderful for stopping a crack in hard refractory; which is why this stuff is resistant to thermal cracking. All of this would be cold comfort to people who can't obtain Kast-O-lite 30 at a reasonable price, because it isn't available locally. But high alumina refractories are common. If you can't find silicon bubbles (an ingredient in some concrete mixtures), Perlite from a garden supply department or farm store is cheap, and makes an a good alternative insulating ingredient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted August 13, 2019 Author Share Posted August 13, 2019 Burners have principles that effect their construction. It is good to keep them in mind when designing something new; this is also true of the forges they heat. But, if nobody wanted to build a new design, there would be a whole lot less forge choices out there. Don't let us crotchety old timers stand in the way of progress Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 15, 2019 Share Posted August 15, 2019 Most concrete supply companies carry bubble on the shelf to make light weight concrete. It's a LOT more commonly available than I thought at first. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted August 15, 2019 Author Share Posted August 15, 2019 That is good to know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 15, 2019 Share Posted August 15, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted August 17, 2019 Author Share Posted August 17, 2019 Free heat You probably get a little tired of warnings about upgrading the insulation and hot-face materials you choose for your forge, to keep up with hotter burner flames. The other side of the coin is that hotter burners allow some of the upgraded refractory surfaces to save you a lot in fuel cost, which cooler burning flames could not. Why? Because, hot surfaces radiate energy; the hotter the surface the more potential available from radiant energy transfer. In practical terms, below 2000 F most thermal transfer is from conduction through the super-heated forge atmosphere; which is constantly being exhausted, and must be replaced with more flame ($$$). The hotter your burner's flame is the hotter the forge's internal surfaces become, and the more those surfaces radiate; So what? at 2000 F and up, more heat is transferred to the work by radiant transfer than from conduction.If you build your forge with that in mind, you can save a bundle; that's what! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted August 18, 2019 Author Share Posted August 18, 2019 Of course, the hotter forge atmosphere is also transferring more heat into the work. Because hotter flames come from better burner designs, rather than dumping more fuel into the fire, you can consider all of that added heat free. The sole point of a forge is to conserve the heat a burner makes as much as possible. The better the forge is designed the better it will conserve heat. The product of a better burner in a better forge is efficiency; conserving time and money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyBiker Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 Well since Mikey mentioned a clamshell style forge a couple posts above I’ll post up the new to me “stove with stand” forge I bought two weeks ago & am sorting out! I just received the ITC 100 and applied it. (that stuff isn’t cheap!!) I have to ask, as there are no directions on the little tub, how long is the cure time for this material? Also, I kind of thought it’d be thicker but it’s more of a gritty ceramic slip than anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted August 23, 2019 Author Share Posted August 23, 2019 The formula I used was ready to go immediately. Products change over the years, so look on the tub for directions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyBiker Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 The “directions” leave a bit to be desired. There was nothing but the tub & the bill of sale in the box. I didn’t know if a heat gun on low was recommended or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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