Thinking 'out loud'/Self defense for the ladies

[Michael Cochran]

I hate watching the news because of all the bad things I ever really hear about but I try to stay informed none the less. Recently I've heard of numerous accounts in the 'local' area about bad things happening to women. On top of that today during a yard sale I was having I had a woman ask my if I had any smaller pocket knives (I was selling some of my extra store bought knives). I am about 6' 5" and 220ish so when I buy knives I usually go for bigger knives and here I have a woman who my best guess puts her at around 5' 4" and 160ish asking if I have smaller knives. It got me to thinking, I don't see many good self defense blades for women on the market. Is there some kind of reason for that or am I just imagining things? 

That said I can't help but think about starting a small line of knives specifically for that purpose. Mostly using stainless steel and doing stock removal. I have friends that are always giving me old kitchen knives and I keep getting some when I go to the auction so I believe that could be a good place to start. 

With all that said I would appreciate input from the ladies here (and the wife's of any of you guys) that do carry or would carry if they had an ideal knife. I'm curious about just how big would be a good comfortable knife. What style blade would be the most effective for self defense. I'm thinking of doing only single edge blades for safety reasons. Please feel free to kick me in the head or give me some pointers. This isn't going to be a big money maker, more of a goodwill type thing. Don't get me wrong, I will sell them but they will be inexpensive, just enough to offset some of the expenses.

[Steve Sells]

The fantasy of anyone getting into a knife fight and not getting cut badly themselves is not something we need to perpetuate.  beside the problem of police bringing up the issue of premeditated actions.

[natenaaron]

Not a woman.  I think your heart is in the right place but I am afraid the knife might cause them more harm. 

A whistle, Self defense classes and pepper spray. or maybe make a few of these only sharper

 

My wife usually has about 200 pounds of muscle and love and sharp teeth with her. She will not carry anything "dangerous".  I may be able to convince her to carry something like the one above.

 

[Nobody Special]

I was always taught the first rule of a knife fight, is don't get in a knife fight. Run, walk, cheat, but don't get in a knife fight.  When in doubt, see rule one. 

Using a knife in self defense is about like using the 9mm in a firefight. If it occurs, things have gone badly, badly wrong, and it's not going to end well for you. (for that matter, overseas, a lot of guys brought big, manly knives with em on deployment. They didn't do much except get used for opening MREs or getting banned by NCOs. I shudder to think of the investigation and paperwork if anyone had actually stabbed somebody, even during combat.)

I've no problem whatsoever with women that are into knives or firearms, but...rule 1.  I have noticed that some women prefer smaller handles or blades, some most manifestly do not. S'also true of some of the men though.

[TacticallySharp]

These are the two models I've sold the most of to women. My daughters, sisters, niece, and wife each have on also. 

 

They have all received knife skills training from professional instructors.

 

The smaller one in the pocket/purse sheath is my best seller. 2.25" blade. It's a hide away that is very sharp and just large enough to be comfortably carried and handled. They are all trained to walk away if they can. Most of them also have had and practice defensive handgun techniques.

[Rashelle]

First refer to all of the above. Second it has to be legal to carry, which makes it a tool rather then a combat knife. If for some reason I (who does carry and use a knife daily) find myself in a knife fight, as mentioned above something has went majorly wrong. I used to knife fight spar, I still think if I'm using a knife there is something majorly wrong. I am prior military Law Enforcement with 11 years total of working for the criminal justice system. If I am in a physical confrontation and weapons are involved on my part there is a good chance it is a weapon of opportunity, rather then one of the knives on my person. Now because I am carrying a knife, here is the kicker ............ I have to know how to retain the knife even without my using it as in a confrontation weapons may be pulled and used against the carrier of such. Which really does require training. Now if I (and I can not speak for others) was to have to use a knife in a fight, it'd be my nice comfortable one that I use all day long with a handle made by me to fit me.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

A friend of mine made a hair pin that could double for a defense tool, but again just having it is only the first part. There is quite a bit of training that has to be learned if it is to be used effectively.  Basic situational awareness goes a long way to avoid problems.

[Michael Cochran]

You all have made great points and I will not argue any of them. I do want to point out I'm not talking about using a knife in a fight. I'm thinking more along the lines of using it to wound or disable the attacker long enough to get away. Some women have been kidnapped lately that, in my opinion, they could've gotten away with just a little help. As far as legalities regarding knife carry, I have tried getting in touch with the county DA to get a little more information but haven't gotten a response as yet. I will try again and if I still get nowhere I will be contacting the state DAs office.

[SpankySmith]

Mike, our state DA's a tad busy right now, what with the Guvner's recent troubles and all.  

I like knives but dont carry one because I can't see me deploying it quickly or successfully enough in a pinch, unless I had it literally strapped to my leg or something.  I keep pepper spray at hand in the car and of course like any good southern Lady I know my way around guns.  But a knife?  I honestly don't want to get close enough to the Bad Guy to use it, I was also taught to pay attention to your surroundings and get outta dodge fast if anything looks wrong.  

Still, you just never know anymore.  I've had a couple close calls across the years, one very scary incident when I was out walking one very early morning and a car of punks stopped in the middle of the road and we're getting out of the car, coming at me....another vehicle suddenly came up and scared them away.  in that case I don't think having a knife on me would have helped, most likely it would have ended up being used against me.  

I don't think if I were arming myself for a predawn walk today (which btw I don't do anymore after that incident) that a knife would be my first, second or even third choice.  I'd want something I could use effectively while still keeping my distance.

[TwistedCustoms]

It's already been stated here but I'll add my 2 cents because I get asked this question from time to time. The idea of anyone, man or woman, who has little or no training mixing it up with a knife and expecting a happy outcome is rubbish. There are about ten thousand other things that can be done to avoid being targeted in the first place. If it is in fact prudent to carry a defensive weapon then based on your location a handgun should be an option. I don't know about Al but in Ms women don't even need a permit to carry in a purse or hand bag and if they want to concealed carry in a holster it's as simple as getting the permit. The sight of a gun in anyone's hands will give a bad guy more to think about than the sight of a knife and the booming sound a pistol makes has been known to make burglers run the other way without drawing blood. I know this is a world wide site and not everyone reading this has the option of carrying a gun but "when in Rome".

[Glenn]

Even with extensive training and practice any weapon is dangerous as the bad guy can take it from you and then use it against you. As said before, if you are close enough to use the knife, things have already gone really bad.  Plan A could be called premeditated when it gets to the courts.

 

[Frosty]

I'm in whole hearted agreement about carrying a knife as a defensive weapon. We studdied weapons sets in the dojo and more, much more often and harder how to defend against a weapon. Every single beginner just HAD to ask THE question of sensei. "Sensei, what's the best defense?" The answer? "Strong legs." and we'd get to spend that class running.

If things go so seriously bad it's down to hand to hand I have pockets with all kinds of better weapons than a blade, one being my Old Timer, Cattleman. Car keys are serious weapons as is a comb, a handful of thrown change is impressive. My pocket knife? Oh yeah but not open clenched in my fist it becomes the hammer hand strike of serious damage.

If I lived where I thought I needed to pack I'd carry my 9mm. a taser and bear spray. Ever see someone shake off pepper spray? Not going to happen if you hit them with bear spray. I'm not a fighter I'll walk away, you can't make me mad enough to throw a blow.

Anyway, use what's at hand is viable a blade isn't, not really. Maybe if someone tried to rob a vendor at a blade show but what are the odds. My personal favorite leave me alone signs are 12ga pump shotguns and baseball bats. Marvelously effective deterrents but if stupid really comes to visit will validate their Darwin award.

All that said about how bad a self defense weapon a blade is there are exceptions. A few weeks ago there was an area wide alert, on the radio, TV, Amber Alert, etc. an all points call out to everybody in the Mat Su valley. Seems a loser guy had, stolen a woman's pickup and taken hostage her. A passerby had seen them arguing on a local road about 4:30am. Shawna was on her way to work and he'd shown up. Blood on the scene said she hadn't gone willingly though the orders of protection and his previous jail time for kidnapping and assault said it all without physical evidence. He'd been out of jail less than 24 hrs. ditched his 3rd. party and showed up at Shawna's and laid in wait.

Later that day her pickup was found abandoned with more blood and that's when the search went to radio, reverse 911, etc. BOLO. About 11:00 that night both turned themselves in to the Pitman rd. Trooper post in need of medical attention. Shawna had hell beaten out of her but she'd convinced him to turn himself in by sticking a knife in his neck.

Definite "fatal attraction" thing. Shawna is a manager at a local restaurant, I've known her for going on 20 years. The loser lost his job as cook at the restaurant because his behavior was getting more out of line every day. He'd kidnapped her once before and wouldn't stop stalking her. Great legal system we have turned him loose with a 3rd. party. I don't think they'll do that again, last I heard he was in a psych ward. Shawna is taking some time off to recover.

A weapon in combat isn't there to scare anyone, if you have to draw it use it. If you have to use it use it to kill. Anything less is setting yourself up for defeat.

Be careful out there kids it's a dangerous world.

[Steve Sells]

8 hours ago, Michael Cochran said:

..... I do want to point out I'm not talking about using a knife in a fight. I'm thinking more along the lines of using it to wound or disable the attacker long enough to get away. ...

Which is it?  first you said you wont, then you do in same sentence?  ... note when there is a stabbing, the police look to the Emergency rooms for a person being admitted around the same time with cuts and slashes to their hands, blood is  slippery.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

I think you have the right idea, just the wrong marketing plan. Sure, make knives that women would like, but for use on everyday things like opening boxes, cutting threads, cutting that lunch item when the flimsy plastic knife isn't doing the job, cutting the plastic lanyard on some price tags, cutting paper,  etc... My Mom always had a small pocket knife in her purse.

[TheoRockNazz]

As a city slicker where a knife, mace, or fist are the only real weapons available to you, and even with years of boxing, wrestling, and martial arts plus the pocket knife I carry at all times I would never, ever fight back against someone obviously willing to do harm. I know I would never be able to kill a person just to keep my wallet, that's just the type of person I am. 

Personally, I feel if I did draw my fancy-looking folding knife it would give the fella more incentive to take my things. I've made my fiance knives (oh, by the way, I'm now engaged, woohoo!) and made it clear that they stay hidden or at home because I feel if she pulled something with damascus and 3D printed bronze fittings the thief would just see that as sweetening the deal.

Sifu had a wonderful demonstration of why you always avoid knife fights if possible in the form of a two foot scar running diagonally across his chest. And of course as knifemakers it's our responsibility to look in medical books and online to see what blades can do - anytime my friends start talking tough about wielding knives I show them pictures or videos that remind them we're just meat on the inside and that usually shuts them up (or they might throw up haha).

[SpankySmith]

I think Bigun said it dead on.  Women DO appreciate the craftsmanship and practicality of knives, and I just love some of the smaller more delicate ones I've seen here on IFI, but I covet them for home use, not defensive.

[Michael Cochran]

2 hours ago, Steve Sells said:

Which is it?  first you said you wont, then you do in same sentence?  ... note when there is a stabbing, the police look to the Emergency rooms for a person being admitted around the same time with cuts and slashes to their hands, blood is  slippery.

I guess we have different of definitions for the word fight.

Reading all the responses so far makes me think I need to just keep my nose out of it. I just thought there was something I might could do to help even the odds a little but it looks as if I was bad wrong. I will not pursue this thought any longer.

Thanks for all the input everyone.

 

PS congrats on the engagement Theo.

[TheoRockNazz]

Thank you buddy
Let us know if you do anything with the idea in regards to kitchen knives.

[notownkid]

my wife gets out of work at midnight from a nursing home where they have lots of DRUGS and about 15 miles from one of CTs murder capitals, drives home on a dark road and the exit she uses has had 5 dead ladies bodies dropped off in the last 10 yrs.  She has Pepper spray always in her hand and generally 2-3 walk out at the same time.  She has been trained in pepper spray and experienced she also has a concealed carry permit but doesn't usually have a one.  Sometimes if they see someone they don't know in the parking lot they call me and in 15 min I can be there and I'm well armed and fully trained.  As a friend who was a game warden said he would rather be on the stand telling why the other guy got hurt than have him telling why I'm dead.    Self defense is a right, being killed is not.  Ladies and knifes as said above is the wrong way to go.  If you want to protect yourself or family TRAIN for it, want to be a victim set back and watch TV.  You choose.

[matto]

I always have a 2-3 lb hammer in the truck with in reach.  Can't get into trouble for a concealed weapon.  But can be very effective if needed.  Some might think barbarian or just not right.  Hey it's my Irish roots.  If there is on other way and it comes down to a fight you win at all cost and you do what ever you can to win.  There are no rules and there is no referee you go primal.  Maybe if it ever got that far they would be nice enough to let me paint my self blue like the Irish warriors I come from.  

[SLAG]

Many books and instructors teaching self defense are ineffective rubbish. They have not taught women proper & practical, effective moves. (many of those recommended moves require too much strength). Smiths can manage it, but most ladies are not forging. But there are still numerous maneuver and targets that require little brawn. (one example, is a hammer fist strike to the top of the shoulder blade. Only 3 foot pounds is needed to break that bone. When it is accomplished the whole upper side of the body goes limp and cannot be used). Forget knives. They require considerable skill. Are too easily taken by the assailant & used against her. Also the gore factor should not be underestimated. Sticky gushing blood puts most people off. male & female. Concealed carry guns require considerable knowledge (for example drawing the gun quickly, without, snagging it on clothing, & proper handling) They also need regular practice. The best defense is situational awareness, avoidance and a lot of screaming noise. Pepper spray cans work very well but may require explaining after the incident. A poor person's substitute is a powder puff. Which is several layers of tissue placed one on top of the other with liberal amounts of cayenne pepper and chilly flakes placed in the middle, and the ends and sides folded inward to make a puff. It can easily be concealed in the fist, and it is pushed into the assailant's face. This narrative is by no means exhaustive. There are many other methods.   Cheers     SLAG. 

Edited April 10, 2016 by SLAG
clarification, & adding information.

[Frosty]

Your "powder puff" will work but can be problematical to deploy. However they make nice little air horns that are VERY loud if only for a few seconds. If you put a little wad of tissue down in the horn to protect the valve, fill it with "Coleman's hot mustard powder" (rectangular red can at super markets everywhere) and seal the horn with tape you have a loud alarm, toxic irritant weapon. Another good toxic irritant is cinnamon powder. When either hit wet tissues they start getting chemically HOT via direct stimulation of nerves. A blast in the face is a wicked nasty experience, I've experimented with a scant 1/4 tsp. in a cup and a soda straw. I recommend you do this little experiment in the shower you're gonna need a fast thorough flush.

There is or was a fellow teaching street self defense he was on a number of TV programs a while ago, "Today" for one. He wasn't teaching martial arts he was teaching self defense and as Sun Tsu said in so many ways, the best defense is a strong offense. If you're forced into combat you don't duck, dodge, break holds, block, etc. not if you want to be the one left standing you don't. You go for the soft targets with maximum aggression and intent to do damage. Not hurt, do damage. It's amazing how much damage you can do to a human body if the owner is trying to hold onto you. He wasn't teaching throws and holds it was pressure points and weak spots. For instance, you can bring most people to their knees by pinching them around the collar bone, just try to make your fingers touch on the inside. A knife edge stomp to the instep is another disabling strike anybody can deliver with damaging power. Make a knee strike at their groin, if they don't dodge deliver it with max intent, if they do dodge they WILL lean away straightening a leg to do so. Hit them with your knee to keep them moving back and keep their leg straight. Then stomp with the outside edge of your foot starting just above their knee cap with BAD intent, rake your shoe down their shin and stomp their instep to paste. Hopefully the surgeons will have to remove their knee cap from their foot.

They'll lose interest in you and you can run. Run!

Frosty The Lucky.

[SLAG]

Herr Frosty,   Do not forget a sharp shot to the floating ribs, they break easily and the assailant loses all fervour after that.

Regards    SLAG.

[John McPherson]

Knowledge and training can never be taken away from you. Anything can be a an effective tool or weapon in the right hands, nothing is effective in the wrong hands. Just like blacksmithing, or welding, or anything else.

[Frosty]

6 minutes ago, SLAG said:

Herr Frosty,   Do not forget a sharp shot to the floating ribs, they break easily and the assailant loses all fervour after that.

Regards    SLAG.

It sure does but can be hard to deliver effectively at grappling distance but you certainly can stick your fingers under it and attempt to pull a rib OUT for a souvenir. A nice snappy knuckle rap where the sternum and collar bones connect is a wonderful thing.

Exactly John, you can take everything from a person except their knowledge.

Frosty The Lucky.